Laura: WE ARE CLOSE TO AVERAGE SNOWPACK IN THE MOUNTAINS BUT THE RIO GRANDE STILL RAN LOW THIS SPRING AND HAS ALREADY DRIED SOUTH OF SOCORRO.

ARE THESE CONDITIONS EXPECTED TO LAST THROUGHOUT THE SUMMER?

Thomas: YEAH.

UNLESS MONSOONS KICK IN EARLY, WHICH WE DID SEE SOME OF THAT LAST NIGHT, IT IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE THE INTERMITTENT IN THAT REACH FOR 28 MAYBE UP TO 40 MILES DEPENDING HOW DRY IT GETS DOWN THERE.

I JUST TALKED TO ONE HYDROLOGIST IN RECLAMATION THIS MORNING AND THEY HAVE SUPPLEMENTED WATER FOR THE MINNOW THAT THEY ARE GROWING TO RELEASE AT ISLETA AND THAT WILL PREVENT WATER THROUGH SECTIONS OF ISLETA FROM DRYING THROUGH SEPTEMBER, BUT IF WE DON'T GET ANY RAIN, WE'LL PROBABLY SEE A LOT MORE DRYING OF ISLETA.

AS OF RIGHT NOW I SAY THERE IS PROBABLY ONLY FIVE TO SEVEN MILES OF ISLETA LIKELY TO HAVE -- U.S.

FISH AND WILDLIFE, BEFORE THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT, AND SPECIFICALLY YOU WORKED ON PROTECTING THE ENDANGERED SILVERY MINNOW.

HOW DOES THIS RIVER DRYING IN THE SUMMERS AFFECT THE FISH'S POPULATION?

Tom: IT IS KIND OF ENTANGLED WITH THE SPRING RUNOFF.

WHEN YOU HAVE YEARS OF HIGH SPRING RUNOFF, 2017 AND 2019, YOU END UP WITH A LOT OF YOUNGER FISH, FISH THAT WERE SPAWNED IN THAT YEAR, YOU END UP WITH A LOT OF THOSE FISH AND YOU GO TO A YEAR LIKE 2018 OR 2020, THE DRYING STARTED TO OCCUR BEFORE THEY SPAWN.

THAT IS PREVENTING ANY FISH FROM SUCCESSFULLY REPRODUCING AND THEN THE HEAT AND I THE DRYING, YOU'RE IMPACTING SURVIVAL OF THE ADULTS AS WELL.

YOU END UP THAT ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE DIDN'T SEE AS MANY FISH AS YOU MIGHT HAVE EXPECTED IN 2019 IS BECAUSE THE DRYING WAS SO BAD IN 2018.

NOT ONLY DID YOU FAIL TO REALLY PRODUCE ANY NEW FISH THAT YEAR, YOU ALSO LOST WHAT WAS ALREADY THERE.

YOU GO INTO 2019 WITH FEWER FISH THAN YOU MIGHT EXPECT NORMALLY.

Laura: WHEN THE RIVER DOES DRY IN SPRING OR SUMMER, THE FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE TYPICALLY HEADS OUT THERE.

WHAT DO YOU USUALLY DO AND WHAT HAPPENS -- WHAT IS HAPPENING THIS YEAR?

Thomas: IN MOST YEARS WHAT WE DO IS THERE IS A LOT MORE CONSISTENCY WITH BEGINNING TO DRY IN JUNE, AND WE HAVE OUR STAFF IN PLACE AND WE'LL GO OUT AND EACH DAY THAT THERE IS A NEW SECTION OF RIVER TO DRY, WE VISIT EVERY POOL THAT FORMS AND TRY TO REMOVE AS MANY SILVERY MINNOW AS POSSIBLE AND GO DOWNSTREAM SOMEWHERE WE ARE PRETTY SURE THEY HAVE PERENNIAL FLOWS FOR THE REST OF THE YEAR.

THIS YEAR IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE OF THE COVID-19.

AND WE HAVE BEEN HAVING TO ASK TO GET PERMISSION FROM OUR REGIONAL OFFICE, GET PERMISSION FROM THEM TO GO DO ANY SORT OF FIELD WORK AND WE HAD TO TAKE A GUESS ON WHEN WE THOUGHT WE WOULD GO OUT.

SO FOR JUNE 8, WHICH IS ACTUALLY A WEEK BEFORE OUR CONTRACT WAS EVEN STARTED FOR ACTUAL RESCUE, SO WE GAVE THEM A BONUS WEEK AND THAT IS THE BEST THAT WE CAN WORK OUT BECAUSE OF SCHEDULING WAS SO BAD AND HAVING TO ASK FOR PERMISSION AND WE ARE ALL GOING TO BE DRIVING SEPARATE VEHICLES.

IT IS -- WE ARE GOING TO HEAD OUT NEXT MONDAY AND IT IS GOING TO BE AN INTERESTING TEST TO SEE HOW WELL IT GOES.

Laura: SO, WHAT DOES IT MEAN AND WHAT DO THE WORSENING CONDITIONS AS THIS RIVER CONTINUES TO WARM AND DRY, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE FISH'S POPULATION LOOKING INTO THE FUTURE, DO YOU THINK?

Thomas: YOU KNOW THAT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK THIS IS KIND OF A WORLDWIDE QUESTION ON WHAT PROLONGED DROUGHTS ARE DOING TO FISH POPULATION.

HISTORICALLY, WHEN IT WAS THE ENTIRE RIO GRANDE AND THE PECOS, MAYBE THIS WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN AS BIG A PROBLEM BECAUSE IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE AFFECTED THE ENTIRE POPULATION ALL AT ONCE.

YOU MAY HAVE HAD FISH IN THE PECOS STILL OKAY, FISH THAT WERE UPSTREAM AT COCHITI, FISH DOWNSTREAM AT ELEPHANT BUTTE, IT MAY HAVE BEEN OKAY FOR A YEAR OR TWO BUT NOW IT RESTRICTS THEM TO ONE SECTION THAT THE 40 TO 50% OF IT IS HIGHLY PRONE TO DRYING.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY REALLY KNOWS, YOU KNOW.

I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE HARDER AND HARDER TO RECOVER THE SPECIES IF WE ARE SEEING GOING FROM TWO OF THE BEST RUNOFF YEARS, YOU KNOW, BACK TO BACK, WITH TWO OF THE WORST RUNOFF YEARS IN THE LAST 20 OR 30 YEARS IT IS DIFFICULT TO MAKE FORWARD PROGRESS WHEN YOU'RE CONSTANTLY KNOCKING THE POPULATION BACK EVERY OTHER YEAR.

Laura: I THINK IT IS PROBABLY FAIR TO SAY THAT THE SILVERY MINNOW IS A PROXY FOR THE HEALTH OF THE RIVER ITSELF AND LIKE YOU MENTIONED, THE HABITAT WAS THE RIO GRANDE AND PECOS RIVER, AND NOW IT IS WITHIN A FEW HUNDRED MILES AND THESE MILES CONSISTENTLY SEEM TO DRY IN THE SUMMER.

WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE RIO GRANDE AND THE CHOICES THAT WE HAVE MADE ON HOW WE USE ITS WATERS IF THE RIVER CAN'T EVEN SUSTAIN A TWO OR THREE INCH LONG FISH?

Thomas: I THINK IT IS REALLY TRUE OF HOW MUCH WE CHANGED THE RIVER OVER THE LAST -- EVEN PRE-SETTLEMENT IT CHANGED QUITE A BIT.

THE NATIVES DID SOME WORK BUT THEY OBVIOUSLY COULDN'T DO IT ON THE SCALE WE HAVE DONE WITH HOLDING BACK SEDIMENT IN COCHITI.

THAT COCHITI WAS THERE FOR FLOOD CONTROL.

THE IT IS ALMOST HARD TO IMAGINE WHAT IT MIGHT HAVE LOOKED LIKE 400 YEARS AGO AND OVERCOMING SOME OF THOSE CHANGES IS GOING TO BE REALLY TOUGH.

YOU KNOW.

YOU WANT TO TRY TO THINK THERE IS SOME POSITIVE IN THERE AND THERE IS.

THE FISH ARE QUITE RESILIENT AND WILL COME BACK IN LOW NUMBERS BUT IT IS GOING TO BE A CONSTANT CYCLE OF HIGH AND LOW IF WE DON'T FIGURE OUT A WAY FOR MANAGEMENT TO GET RID OF THE REALLY LOW YEARS LIKE WE WILL SEE IN 2020.

Laura: YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THIS AND THIS STRETCH OF THE RIVER FOR QUITE A FEW YEARS NOW.

I AM WONDERING FOR YOU COMING BACK TO THESE CHALLENGES YEAR AFTER YEAR AND SEEING THE DRY RIVERBED YEAR AFTER YEAR, HOW DOES THAT AFFECT YOU AND THE WORK THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO?

Thomas: YOU KNOW IT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

THERE IS TWO SIDES TO IT.

THERE IS DIRECTLY WHAT YOU'RE SEEING LIKE SEEING THIS HAPPEN YEAR AFTER YEAR AND NOT REALLY SEEING A WHOLE LOT OF FORWARD PROGRESS IS DEFINITELY FRUSTRATING AND ESPECIALLY THERE ARE SOME AGENCIES OUT THERE THAT ARE DOING OTHER WORK THAT IS NOT REALLY GOING TO THESE MEETINGS AND I DON'T THINK ANYBODY REALLY RECOGNIZES THE SITUATION ABOUT HOW BAD IT REALLY IS AND SO IT IS FRUSTRATING AND KIND OF DEPRESSING.

ON THE FLIP SIDE IT IS ALSO -- I GOT INTO THIS FIELD BECAUSE OF THE SCIENCE ASPECTS OF IT AND WE HAVE DEVELOPED A REALLY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION AND ASSISTING THEM IN MEETING COMPLIANCE WITH BIOLOGICAL OPINIONS AND WE DO A LOT OF INTERESTING STUFF THAT I THINK WE WOULD HAVE ONLY ACCOMPLISHED BY WORKING AS A GROUP AND FINDING OTHER EXPERTS TO HELP US OUT.

SO, ON THE ONE HAND, VERY DEPRESSING TO WATCH THIS HAPPEN YEAR AFTER YEAR AND NOT REALLY SEE ANY FORWARD PROGRESS.

YOU LOOK AT 2019, ONE OF THE HIGHEST SPRING RUNOFFS ON RECORD AND THE RIVER STILL DRIED IN SEPTEMBER.

THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING RIGHT THERE.

WE COULD HAVE ONE OF THE GREATEST SNOW PACKS OF THE 21ST CENTURY AND WE STILL DRY THE RIVER AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE THERE.

ON THE FLIP SIDE, A LOT OF THIS RESEARCH HAS BEEN REALLY FULFILLING FOR MY CAREER.

Laura: THANK YOU SO MUCH AND WHEN YOU GUYS MAKE IT OUT THERE, BE SAFE.

THANK YOU.

Thomas: THANKS LAURA.