>> Laura: ERIC JANTZ, WELCOME AT THE SHOW.

>> Jantz: THANK YOU, LAURA.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: SO, THE ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL LAST WEEK ABOLISHED, VOTED TO ABOLISH, THE ALBUQUERQUE BERNALILLO COUNTY AIR QUALITY CONTROL BOARD.

TO START WITH, WHAT DOES A BOARD LIKE THAT DO?

>> Jantz: SO THE AIR QUALITY CONTROL BOARD IS A BOARD CREATED BY NEW MEXICO STATUTE THAT IS -- THE MAIN JOB IS TO REGULATE THE AIR QUALITY WITHIN ALBUQUERQUE AND BERNALILLO COUNTY.

THE STATE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT REGULATES AIR QUALITY OUTSIDE THE COUNTY BUT IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE AIR BOARD TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE OF US IN ALBUQUERQUE AND BERNALILLO COUNTY HAVE CLEAN AIR TO BREATHE.

>> Laura: SO, THIS BOARD THAT WAS ABOLISHED, WILL SOMETHING REPLACE IT?

>> Jantz: THAT IS THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION IS THAT IT PURGES THE CURRENT BOARD AND REPLACES IT WITH FOLKS WHO ARE PRESUMABLY MORE INDUSTRY FRIENDLY.

THE REALLY INTERESTING THING AND ACTUALLY KIND OF TROUBLING THING ABOUT THIS WHOLE PROCESS HAS BEEN THAT THESE BILLS ARE SPECIFICALLY TARGETING A PARTICULAR RULE-MAKING PROCEEDING, RIGHT.

SO INDUSTRY HASN'T BEEN HAPPY WITH THE WAY THINGS HAVE GONE AND SO RATHER THAN GO THROUGH THE DESIGNATED PROCESS, THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO SEEK SOME OTHER REDRESS.

>> Laura: WHAT IS THAT RULE MAKING PROCESS?

>> Jantz: THAT RULE MAKING INVOLVES A PETITION BEING FILED WITH THE BOARD, THE BOARD CAN DECIDE TO EITHER HEAR THE PETITION OR NOT.

IN THIS CASE THEY DID.

THE PETITION GETS HEARD AND CURRENTLY IS SCHEDULED FOR DECEMBER 4 THROUGH 8 AT THE CIVIC CENTER.

AND AT THAT POINT, EVERYBODY WHO IS INVOLVED, BOTH INDUSTRY AND PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPORTING THE RULE, WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENT EXPERT WITNESSES AND EVIDENCE ABOUT WHY THE BOARD SHOULD MAKE -- SHOULD EITHER PASS THIS RULE, REJECT IT OR MAKE CHANGES TO IT AND PASS THAT.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE PROCESS REALLY HASN'T EVEN STARTED YET.

THE BOARD HASN'T HEARD ANY EVIDENCE, HASN'T MADE ANY DECISIONS.

THAT IS WHY THIS IS SO ALARMING, RIGHT, IS BECAUSE THE BOARD -- COUNCILOR LEWIS HAS SORT OF PUT A ROADBLOCK IN THIS LEGITIMATE AND LAWFUL PROCESS IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.

>> Laura: SO, YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH COMMUNITIES IN THE SOUTH VALLEY FOR THIS HEALTH ENVIRONMENT AND EQUITY IMPACTS RULE.

WHAT WOULD THAT RULE DO?

>> Jantz: ESSENTIALLY THIS RULE IDENTIFIES THE MOST OVERBURDENED COMMUNITIES, THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE THE MOST -- BIGGEST, HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF POLLUTING INDUSTRIES.

BUT ALSO THE ONES THAT HAVE THE MOST HEALTH IMPACTS, HAVE THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF POVERTY AND OTHER SOCIAL VULNERABILITIES THAT MAKE THEM MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO ILLNESS FROM AIR POLLUTION, FROM EXPOSURE TO AIR POLLUTIONS, AIR HAZARDS, RIGHT.

IT IDENTIFIES THOSE COMMUNITIES.

IT REQUIRES A PERMIT APPLICANT TO GO THROUGH A PROCESS OF IDENTIFYING WHO IS IN THE COMMUNITY, WHAT CONCENTRATIONS OF AIR CONTAMINANTS ARE IN THE COMMUNITY ALREADY, DOING RISK ANALYSES AND THEN THE ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH DEPARTMENT, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ISSUING PERMITS, TAKES A LOOK AT THE REPORT THAT THE INDUSTRY GENERATES AND THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE THE ABILITY TO COMMENT ON AND MAKE A DECISION ABOUT WHAT SORT OF POLLUTION MITIGATION MONITORING AND REPORTING REQUIREMENTS THEY ARE GOING TO PUT ON A PARTICULAR OPERATION.

>> Laura: IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A COMMUNITY WHO IS CONFRONTED WITH LEGACY POLLUTION AND NEW POLLUTING INDUSTRIES MOVING IN HAVE WORKED TOGETHER WITHIN THE SYSTEM TO MOVE FORWARD PROTECTIONS FOR THEIR PUBLIC HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT AND NOW THE ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL HAS STOPPED THAT PROCESS OR HARMED THAT PROCESS.

WHY DO YOU THINK COUNCILOR LEWIS AND FOUR OF HIS COLLEAGUES WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

>> Jantz: I THINK THAT IS A QUESTION FOR THE COUNCILORS.

MY SUSPICION IS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THIS RULE, EVEN THOUGH THERE ISN'T A RULE YET, THERE IS A PROPOSED RULE, BUT, AS I SAID, THE BOARD HASN'T MADE ANY DECISIONS, THAT THIS PROPOSED RULE IS GOING TO COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN BERNALILLO COUNTY.

I MEAN THAT IS NONSENSE.

WE HEAR THIS ALL THE TIME AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH COMMUNITIES PROFESSIONALLY FOR 20 YEARS.

AND EVERY TIME THERE IS A NEW SORT OF REGULATION PROPOSED OR RULE PROPOSED OR LAW PROPOSED, THE FIRST THING WE ALWAYS HEAR IS THIS IS GOING TO DESTROY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN THE COUNTY, THE CITY, THE STATE OR WHEREVER, RIGHT?

INVARIABLY THESE INDUSTRIES ARE ABLE TO ADAPT TO THE NEW REGULATORY LANDSCAPE.

IT IS JUST A MATTER OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE THE POLITICAL OR THE WILL TO DO THAT.

THERE IS PERHAPS SOME ECONOMIC DISLOCATION BUT ECONOMIC RUIN HAS NEVER HAPPENED.

>> Laura: SO, I MEAN, THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS PASSED INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT ENVIRONMENTAL LEGISLATION IN THE 1960'S AND 70'S.

AND AMERICANS OVERWHELMINGLY WANT THINGS LIKE CLEAN DRINKING WATER, CLEAN AIR AND CLEAN WATER AND YET OVER TIME THOSE LAWS ARE CONSISTENTLY WEAKENED OR LIKE WE SEE HERE, NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS AREN'T ALLOWED TO GO FORWARD.

WHY IS THAT?

>> Jantz: HONESTLY, LAURA, I THINK IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO PROFITS OVER PEOPLE.

SQUEEZING THE LAST LITTLE BIT OF PROFIT OUT OF EVERY OPERATION, I THINK, FOR SOME PEOPLE MATTERS MORE THAN THE COMMON GOOD OF BEING ABLE TO PROTECT PEOPLES' HEALTH.

IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE ULTIMATELY PROTECTING PEOPLES' HEALTH AND HAVING CLEAN AIR, WATER, LAND, WHATEVER, IS A LOT MORE ECONOMICALLY BENEFICIAL FOR THE WHOLE RATHER THAN KEEPING SORT OF DIRTY AIR, DIRTY WATER, DIRTY LAND, RIGHT.

WHEN THE CLEAN AIR ACT WAS PASSED, YOU KNOW, INDUSTRY SQUAWKED ABOUT HOW IT WAS GOING TO RUIN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BUT IT TURNS OUT STUDY AFTER STUDY HAS SHOWN THAT THE RETURN TO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT FROM HAVING CLEAN AIR UNDER THE CLEAN AIR ACT OUTWEIGHS THE COST OF COMPLIANCE BY LIKE 30 TO 1.

>> Laura: SO, I THINK YOU AND I HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER FOR CLOSE TO 20 YEARS.

WE FIRST MET WHEN YOU WERE WORKING WITH THE NAVAJO NATION TO BAN URANIUM MINING WITHIN THE NAVAJO NATION.

YOU HAVE WORKED WITH COMMUNITIES ALL ACROSS NEW MEXICO WHO FACE CHALLENGES IN HAVING EITHER LEGACY OR NEW POLLUTING INDUSTRIES, WHO LACK ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER, CLEAN AIR, A SAFE ENVIRONMENT.

WHAT DO THOSE COMMUNITIES HAVE IN COMMON THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE LOTS OF OUR AUDIENCE MEMBERS JUST TAKE FOR GRANTED?

>> I THINK THAT SORT OF THE THREAD THAT RUNS THROUGH EVERYTHING IS COMMUNITIES ARE LARGELY COMMUNITIES OF COLOR AND OFTEN LOW INCOME.

AND THERE HAS BEEN A WEALTH OF RESEARCH OVER THE DECADES SHOWING THAT THE BEST PREDICTOR OF WHERE POLLUTING INDUSTRY GETS SITED IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A COMMUNITY OF COLOR NEARBY.

>> Laura: YOU KNOW, I KEEP THINKING ABOUT HOW THERE ARE ALL THESE LAWS IN PLACE AND THERE IS A SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN PLACE TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM POLLUTION, FROM UNSAFE CONDITIONS AND I FEEL LIKE WE SEE TIME AND TIME AGAIN COMMUNITIES IN NEW MEXICO WHO TRY TO WORK WITHIN THE EXISTING STRUCTURE AND THE EXISTING SYSTEM, FOR INSTANCE, WITH THE HEALTH IMPACT OR THE HEALTH ENVIRONMENT EQUITY IMPACT RULE.

WORKING WITHIN THE STRUCTURE THAT EXISTS.

AND THEN YOU HAVE ELECTED LEADERS WHO COME IN AND CHANGE THE SYSTEM, CHANGE THE RULES.

WHAT ARE PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO DO?

>> Jantz: THAT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I MEAN, THE COMMUNITIES WHO FACE THESE ISSUES ARE REALLY USED TO THAT SORT OF GAME OF WHACK-A-MOLE AND VERY ADAPTABLE.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT AS THIS PROCESS UNWINDS, WHICHEVER WAY IT GOES, THE COMMUNITY FOLKS THAT WE ARE WORKING WITH AND THE VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES THROUGHOUT BERNALILLO COUNTY WILL ADAPT TO IT.

I MEAN, THEY ARE NOT GOING AWAY.

THEY ARE COMMITTED TO MAKING SURE THAT THEIR AIR, THE AIR THEY AND THEIR FAMILIES BREATHE IS CLEAN AND REALLY THE AIR THAT ALL OF US IN BERNALILLO COUNTY BREATHE IS CLEAN.

BUT, YEAH, I MEAN, WE SEE THIS ALL THE TIME.

IT IS JUST A MATTER OF HAVING TO BE CREATIVE AND ADAPT.

>> Laura: LASTLY, WHAT SHOULD THE REST OF ALBUQUERQUE PEOPLE UP IN THE NORTHEAST HEIGHTS, PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, IN COMMUNITIES THAT MAYBE AREN'T IMPACTED BY THESE VERY POLLUTING INDUSTRIES, YOU KNOW, HOW DO PEOPLE NEED TO BETTER SUPPORT THEIR NEIGHBORS AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS?

>> Jantz: AGAIN, THIS DOESN'T IMPACT -- POOR AIR QUALITY DOESN'T JUST IMPACT DISADVANTAGED OR VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES, UNDER-RESOURCED COMMUNITIES.

THEY IMPACT ALL OF US.

IT IS JUST A MATTER OF WHEN.

IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN SOONER OR LATER.

AND SO, FOLKS WHO DON'T LIVE IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR OR LOW INCOME COMMUNITIES, OR COMMUNITIES THAT ARE VULNERABLE BECAUSE OF SOCIAL DETERMINATES OF HEALTH, LIKE POVERTY, ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE, FOOD INSECURITY, THINGS LIKE THAT, CAN SUPPORT THOSE COMMUNITIES AND THEMSELVES BY GETTING ENGAGED IN PROCESSES LIKE THIS.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, URGING THE MAYOR TO VETO THE PIECES OF LEGISLATION AND IF HE DOES THAT AND THE COUNCIL DECIDES THEY WANT TO TRY TO OVERRIDE THE VETO, MAKING SURE THEIR COUNCILOR VOTES THE RIGHT WAY.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

THANK YOU ERIC.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> Jantz: MY PLEASURE, THANKS FOR HAVING ME, LAURA.