♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA F. WE HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY GUEST TODAY, ANNA SOFAER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>ANNA: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOUR WORK ON CHACO CANYON, YOU ARE ONE OF THE LEADING CHACO RESEARCHERS AND YOU REDISCOVERED THE SUN DAGGERS 700 YEARS LATER.

I'D LIKE YOU TO TELL ME, WHAT THE SUN DAGGER IS.

IT WAS 1977, YOU WERE, WELL, JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU WERE DOING AND HOW YOU HAPPENED TO BE THERE AT THE RIGHT TIME.

>>ANNA: WELL, I HAD A FASCINATION WITH ROCK ART, AND I READ SOMETHING THAT TOLD ME THAT YOU COULD GO INTO CHACO CANYON AND RECORD IT AND IN FACT, THAT'S WHAT I DID.

THE SECOND DAY I'M THERE AND GETTING OUT OF MY TENT AND WE'RE BEING ORGANIZED AND THE LEADER, CAPTAIN BAIN OF ALBUQUERQUE, HE WAS VERY TOGETHER, HE SAID, NOW YOU GO THERE, YOU GO THERE AND HE SAID, SOMEBODY NEEDS TO DO FAJADA BUTTE.

I WAS SO LUCKY TO HAVE A NICE MAN THERE, JAY CROWDY, I STILL HAVE SUCH WARM MEMORIES, HE HAD ROPES AND GLOVES AND HE WAS GOING, SO I SAID, I'LL GO TOO.

THE FIRST DAY WE WERE THERE, WE RECORDED ABOUT 22 SITES.

>>LORENE: NOW, WAIT A MINUTE.

THIS IS UP A 1,500-FOOT BUTTE?

>>ANNA: A 500-FOOT.

>>LORENE: 500 FEET, THAT'S ENOUGH.

>>ANNA: BUT QUITE STEEP.

IT DIDN'T INTIMIDATE ME IN THOSE DAYS, NOW I'M NOT SO SURE.

BUT IT WAS SEEING 22 SITES, AND WE WENT TO THE TOP TO SEE WHAT WAS THERE AND WE DID SEE A SPIRAL, BUT WE SAID, WE BETTER COME BACK THE NEXT DAY WHEN THERE'S MORE LIGHT.

WE HAPPENED TO GET THERE NEAR NOON JUST WITHIN A WEEK OF SOLSTICE, AND THERE WAS A BEAUTIFUL DAGGER OF LIGHT RIGHT THROUGH THE CENTER OF THIS 15-INCH-WIDE SPIRAL.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

>>ANNA: AND THAT SPOKE TO ME IMMEDIATELY.

THIS IS THE HIGHEST POINT OF THE SUN IN THE DAY AND THE YEAR AND THAT'S WHAT'S BEING MARKED HERE.

AND I KNEW ENOUGH ABOUT ASTRONOMY BY STUDYING MAYAN SITES WHERE SHADOW AND LIGHT COMMEMORATED IMPORTANT TIMES, LIKE AT EQUINOX, THIS FANTASTIC SERPENT SHADOW UP A PYRAMID AND I'D BEEN TO NEWGRANGE, WHERE LIGHT CAME IN FROM IRELAND AND LIT UP A TRIPLE SPIRAL.

SO I THINK I HAD JUST ENOUGH ORIENTATION TO KNOW THAT THIS WAS IMPORTANT.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

AND THANK YOU FOR BRINGING IT TO US, BECAUSE WHO ELSE HAS BEEN UP THERE AT THE TOP OF THE BUTTE AT THE RIGHT TIME WITH THE SOLSTICE, IT WAS JUST SUCH A GIFT, AND YOU TOOK FULL ADVANTAGE OF IT.

ONE THING I WANT TO MENTION THAT YOUR RESEARCH ADVISOR WAS JOSEPH CAMPBELL, THE CATALOGER OF ALL MYTHS, COSMOLOGY ENGINEER, SO HE ENCOURAGED YOU.

HE ALSO KNEW THIS WAS A REAL IMPORTANT TOPIC.

>>ANNA: OH, ABSOLUTELY.

IT WAS SO AFFIRMING TO HEAR THE BIGGER PICTURE IN THE ARCHIVAL, OUR TYPICAL PICTURE BECAUSE THAT WAS HIS FIELD.

TO SEE HOW SUN AND MOON WERE LIKE DEITIES TO PEOPLE THROUGHOUT TRADITIONAL CULTURE.

AND HE HAD ACTUALLY HAD SOME HUNCH THAT IN THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST THERE WOULD BE THIS EFFORT TO BRING TOGETHER SUN AND LIGHT, I MEAN SUN AND MOON.

HE SPEAKS IN OUR FIRST FILM, THE SUN DAGGER , BEAUTIFULLY ABOUT THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF TIME, THERE'S THE ABSOLUTE SOLAR CYCLE THAT YOU CAN TRACK AND YOU'LL KNOW IT'S GOING TO COME UP THE NEXT MORNING, BUT THEN THERE'S THE MYSTERIOUS MOON AND THAT'S MORE ABOUT LIFE, BIRTH, FULL LIFE, DEATH AND REBIRTH AND A VERY CHANGING CYCLE FULL OF MYSTERY.

SO HE WAS THRILLED THAT THE DUALITY OF SUN AND MOON WOULD BE UNIFIED RIGHT THERE ON A SPIRAL, WITH SHADOW FOR THE MOON AND LIGHT FOR THE SUN.

IT WAS POETIC, IT IS POETIC.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

WE DID MAKE A WONDERFUL FILM CALLED WRITTEN ON THE LANDSCAPE: MYSTERIES BEYOND CHACO CANYON AND WE DO HAVE A TRAILER FOR IT, SO WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A MINUTE AND SHOW IT, AND THEN I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT IT.

I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO SEE THE LANDSCAPE, TO SEE HOW THIS BUTTE STANDS OUT AND THE MYSTERIES THAT YOU FOUND ON TOP THAT HAD BEEN LYING DORMANT FOR, WHAT, 700 YEARS?

>>ANNA: WELL, YEAH, PROBABLY EVEN MORE, MORE LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, A THOUSAND YEARS, BUT WHO'S COUNTING.

ANYWAY, LET'S TAKE A MINUTE AND LOOK AT IT.

>>ANNA: SURE.

IN THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST WITH MEXICO AND CENTRAL AMERICA TO THE SOUTH, A VAST DESERT REACHES AS FAR AS THE MIND CAN IMAGINE.

ITS BEAUTY ALLURING AND MAGNETIC AND YET FOREBODING IN ITS SPARSENESS.

AT ITS HEART LIES CHACO CANYON, 1000 YEARS AGO, A PEOPLE UNDAUNTED BY THE CANYON'S BARREN LANDSCAPE CONSTRUCTED MONUMENTAL BUILDINGS FOR RITUALS ATTENDING TO THE SUN AND TO THE MOON.

THE CEREMONIAL CENTER OF MAGNIFICENT ARCHITECTURE NOT SEEN BEFORE OR AFTER IN THE HISTORY OF NORTH AMERICA, CREATED BY A CIVILIZATION THAT CONSTRUCTED MORE THAN 150 RELATED STRUCTURES SET IN RUGGED AND CHALLENGING LANDSCAPES, BUILT ACROSS AN EXPANSE OF 70,000 SQUARE MILES, WITHOUT BEASTS OF BURDEN, USING TOOLS MADE ONLY OF WOOD AND STONE.

IN THIS LAND OF LITTLE WATER, A DAGGER OF LIGHT CROSSES AN ANCIENT SPIRAL, A PUZZLING ENGRAVING MARKS THE ROCK WALL IN A CANYON WORN BY WEATHER AND THE LONG-VANISHED OCEAN.

NEARLY INVISIBLE ROADS UP TO 35 MILES IN LENGTH SPREAD ACROSS THE LANDSCAPE, STONE BUILDINGS ALIGN WITH THE SUN AND THE MOON.

BUT THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THESE STRUCTURES REMAIN A MYSTERY, THEIR HISTORY SHROUDED BEHIND A VEIL THAT LEFT NO WRITTEN LANGUAGE AND FEW REPRESENTATIONS OF THEMSELVES.

CHACO, WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT HIM IN SOME WAYS, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT LANGUAGE HE SPOKE, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR RELIGION WAS AND WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW THEIR THINKING WENT, UNLESS YOU LOOK AT THE ASTRONOMY.

FOR MORE THAN 300 YEARS, GENERATION UPON GENERATION, THE ASTRONOMERS OF CHACO TRACKED AND UNDERSTOOD THE MOVEMENTS OF THE SUN AND THE MOON.

THE LEGACY OF CHACO OFFERS A UNIQUE WINDOW INTO THE PAST, A PLACE WHERE TIME AND SPACE MERGE, THE WORLD OF THE CHACO CIVILIZATION.

>>LORENE: SO WHAT NEW DISCOVERIES ARE REVEALED IN THIS FILM.

THEY AREN'T NEW NOW, BUT THEY WERE NEW THEN.

>>ANNA: I WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE FILM BECAUSE WE WERE REALIZING FROM ESPECIALLY RESEARCH ABOUT CHACO ROADS, BUT ALSO ABOUT HOW MANY OUTLYING GREAT HOUSES THERE WERE IN THE SAN JUAN BASIN, 35,000 SQUARE MILES.

THAT WAS THE FIRST REALIZATION GOING BACK ABOUT 20 YEARS, AND THEN GRADUALLY IT BECAME EVEN BIGGER, TWICE THAT SIZE, TWICE THE SIZE OF IRELAND, THOSE CHACO SITES THAT LOOK VERY MUCH LIKE THEIR PORTIONS OF THE GREAT BUILDINGS IN THE CENTER, BUT THEY'RE NOT THAT CLOSE.

THEY CAN BE AS MUCH AS 140 MILES WEST, NORTH, SOUTH OF CHACO AND YET PEOPLE ARE NOW RECOGNIZING THEY'RE CHACOAN.

THEY HAVE THE GREAT KIVAS, THEY HAVE SIMILAR MASONRY, THEY HAVE SIMILAR CERAMICS, AND THEY EVEN CHANGE IN PHASES OF STYLE OF CERAMICS AND MASONRY AT ONE TIME TOGETHER.

SO IT'S A LANGUAGE ACROSS THE LANDSCAPE THAT UNITED PEOPLE AND SEVERAL ALSO EXPRESS ASTRONOMY.

THE MOST ASTOUNDING IS THE ONE THAT SORT OF PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN OUR FILM AND I'M SORT OF GIVING A PREVIEW, BUT THIS EXTRAORDINARY SITE, 92 MILES NORTH NEAR PAGOSA SPRINGS, IS CALLED CHIMNEY ROCK.

THAT'S A CHACO BUILDING AND ACTUALLY, THE MOST AMAZING THING, THIS IS THE EXTREME OF THE MOON IN THE 18 TO 19 YEAR CYCLE, THE FURTHEST NORTH.

>>LORENE: OH, MY GOODNESS.

>>ANNA: SO A GREAT KNOWLEDGE OF ASTRONOMY SHOWED THERE, AS THE SAME THING IS MARKED ON THE SUN DAGGER SITE.

THERE'S A SHADOW OF THIS SAME MOON AT THAT TIME, SO YOU HAD THAT UNITY OF SUN AND MOON.

AND THIS BUILDING TO GIVE A REAL AFFIRMATION TO INTENTIONALITY THERE, THREE DATES, TREE RING DATES IN THE CHACO BUILDING WITH ITS KIVAS, HAS TWO KIVAS, ARE EXACTLY THE OCCURRENCE OF THIS IN THE TEN HUNDREDS.

SO THEY WERE DEFINITELY COMMEMORATING THE 19-YEAR CYCLE OF THE MOON AND WITH A KIND OF A SHRINE.

BECAUSE LIKE FAJADA, IT'S ON THIS STEEP, STEEP MESA, IF YOU STEP A LITTLE TOO FAR THAT WAY OR EITHER AND THAT'S THE SAME AS FAJADA BUTTE.

SO THESE ARE NOT UTILITARIAN, THEY'RE NOT ABOUT DATES FOR FARMING OR PLANTING, THEY'RE REALLY ABOUT THE MOON IS A SPIRITUAL ENTITY.

>>LORENE: SO ONE OF THE THINGS I'M INTERESTED IN, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO REMIND YOU THAT WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ANNA SOFAER ABOUT CHACO CANYON AND ALL OF HER RESEARCH.

I'M FASCINATED BY THE SACRED ROADS, THERE'S ONE, THE GREAT NORTH ROAD, AND THE ROADS WERE NOT FOR TRAVEL OR TRADE, THEY WERE SPIRITUAL JOURNEYS, WEREN'T THEY?

TELL ME ABOUT THE GREAT NORTH ROAD.

>>ANNA: WELL, WHEN I STARTED WORKING IN CHACO, FIRST OF ALL, THEY RESISTED THAT THERE WERE ANY ROADS, THE CHACO RESEARCH CENTER, BUT IT KEPT COMING OUT WITH REMOTE SENSING.

EARLY IMAGERY THAT CAME OUT WITH PHOTOGRAMMETRY AND THEN EVENTUALLY WITH LIDAR, SO YOU SIMPLY COULDN'T DENY IT.

IN FACT THIS IS HOW IT LOOKS WITH LIDAR IN THE CENTER AND YOU SEE THE MULTIPLICITY OF ROADS, IT'S JUST EXTRAORDINARY.

AND IF WE WERE UP HERE AT PUEBLO ALTO, MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THERE, THERE ARE SOMETHING LIKE 12 OR 15 ROADS RADIATING OUT OF THERE.

BUT YOU ASKED ABOUT THE GREAT NORTH ROAD, IT GOES FROM THERE 35 MILES NORTH, IT'S ONE OF THE FEW REALLY LONG ROADS.

AND IT GOES TO COOTES CANYON, WHICH IS A DRAMATIC DROP, LIKE DROPS ABOUT 200, 300 FEET RIGHT THERE, MAYBE MORE AND FROM IT, YOU GET A VIEW TO THE MOUNTAINS TO THE NORTH IN COLORADO.

SO IT'S AN EXPRESSION OF THE DIRECTION NORTH, BECAUSE THERE'S NO UTILITARIAN PURPOSE TO GOING TO A STEEP DROP LIKE THAT AND WHEN WE FOUND CERAMICS BROKEN POTTERY THERE, PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THAT IT WAS A PLACE OF RITUAL.

VERY, VERY IMPORTANT DIRECTION OF NORTH, TOO.

>>LORENE: AND SO, TELL ME THEN, COSMOGRAPHICALLY, WHAT THE GREAT NORTH ROAD MEANT.

NOW, IT WAS VERY WIDE.

>>ANNA: YES, THAT'S THE EXTRAORDINARY THING.

THE ROADS, ALMOST ALL OF THEM, ARE 30 FEET WIDE, SOME A LITTLE SMALLER, SOME A LITTLE WIDER, BUT GENERALLY 30 FEET WIDE, ISN'T THAT WIDER THAN THE SANTA FE TRAIL, THE OLD PECOS TRAIL?

AND THEY ARE PROBABLY THREE TO FOUR FEET DEEP IN PLACES, ORIGINALLY, SCOOPED OUT WITH BASKETS AND ANTLERS, IT'S AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF WORK.

ALWAYS VERY STRAIGHT AND THEN THE QUESTION IS, WHERE ARE THEY GOING, WHAT ARE THEY ABOUT?

AND JUST LIKE THIS, WHICH WE FOUND WITH COOTES CANYON, THERE'S A SOUTH ROAD EQUALLY LONG GOING OUT OF CHACO 35 MILES.

AND WHAT'S ITS DESTINATION, IT IS GOING RIGHT TO HOSTA BUTTE, THE TOWERING BUTTE, 600 FEET HIGH, BUTTE TO THE SOUTH.

SO YOU HAVE A COMPLEMENT TO THE NORTH, ANOTHER DUALITY, NORTH AND SOUTH, MEETING IN THE CENTER WHERE PUEBLO BONITO AND LARGE BUILDINGS ARE, BUT NOT TO CARRY TIMBERS, NOT TO CARRY ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR, BUT TO MARK THAT LANDSCAPE AS SPEAKING TO THEM OF SOMETHING VERY POWERFUL.

THAT GETS REPLICATED OVER AND OVER, THAT THE ROADS WILL TAKE YOU TO A LITTLE PEEK AND WHAT WILL BE THERE, AS A MINIMAL SITE, MAYBE A SPRING, ANOTHER PLACE WOULD BE A SPRING.

SO VERY SUBTLE IN THE DESTINATION, OFTEN, BUT ENORMOUS WORK TO DO IT, ENGINEERING, MANAGING LABOR TO DO IT.

IT MUST HAVE HAD HUGE IMPORTANCE.

>>LORENE: YES, YES, AND YOU SAID THE EDGES WERE LINED WITH BROKEN POTS SOMETIMES?

>>ANNA: WELL, MORE IN THE CENTER, AND NOT ALWAYS, THAT WAS ON THE NORTH ROAD, PARTICULARLY.

AND ALSO ON THE SLOPE THAT WE FOUND THE BROKEN PIECES.

>>LORENE: AND WHAT DID NORTH SYMBOLIZE FOR THEM?

>>ANNA: WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT IT RESONATES IN THE PUEBLO WORLD, THAT PLACE OF ORIGIN IS FROM THE NORTH.

NORTH IS A VERY POWERFUL DIRECTION, PLACE OF THE CREATOR IS WHAT PAUL PINO SAID IN ONE OF OUR FILMS.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I HAD MATERIALS TO SHARE WITH THE PUEBLO PEOPLE, WHICH I OFTEN DID, I WOULD SHOW THE SUN DAGGER AND THEY WOULD SAY, YES, WE KNEW OUR ANCESTORS WERE VERY SMART AND HAD THIS SCIENCE THAT WAS ALREADY KNOWN.

AND WHEN I SHOWED THEM, THEY SHOWED EVEN MORE INTEREST IN THE NORTH ROAD BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNEW WAS SIGNIFICANT.

THE IDEA OF ROAD IS SYMBOLIC AND NORTH AND YOU PUT THE TWO TOGETHER, IT'S THE GREAT NORTH ROAD.

SO IT RESONATED STRONGLY WITH PUEBLO PEOPLE.

>>LORENE: WHAT IS WITH THE FASCINATION WITH CHACO, YOU GIVE US MORSELS TO FEED THAT FASCINATION, YOU GIVE US HUGE BOOKS AND STUDIES AND EVERYTHING TO FEED THAT.

WHY ARE PEOPLE SO FASCINATED?

>>ANNA: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I ASK PEOPLE MYSELF, WHY ARE YOU SO DRAWN TO IT?

>>LORENE: WHAT DO THEY SAY?

>>ANNA: WHAT IS THE ELECTRIC, THE MAGNETISM, WHAT WAS IT A THOUSAND YEARS AGO?

LET'S SEE IF I CAN ANSWER AFTER ALL THESE YEARS.

I THINK IT'S BECAUSE THERE'S NOTHING THERE, YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S A SENSE OF VAST OPENNESS, EMPTINESS, IN THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WAY AND THAT LIGHTENS YOU TO IMAGINE SOMETHING GREATER THAN OURSELVES.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE A MOONSCAPE AND SOME PEOPLE ARE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THAT.

IT'S ARID, IT'S ALMOST FORBIDDING AND YET, IT OPENS SOMETHING IN PEOPLE AND THEY DO HAVE VERY UNUSUAL EXPERIENCES.

I'VE HAD SO MANY PEOPLE, I'D LIKE TO MAKE A FIFTH FILM WITH THE PEOPLE WHO'VE HAD THOSE ALTERED STATES IN CHACO.

VISIONS THAT THEY SAID CHANGED THEIR LIVES.

BUT HOW TO SAY MORE ABOUT WHAT IS IT?

WELL, IT'S ALSO, OF COURSE, THAT THE PEOPLE DID EXTRAORDINARY WORK IN EXTREMELY ARDUOUS SITUATION.

THERE'S NO PRODUCTIVE LAND THERE FOR FOOD, THAT'S BEEN SHOWN.

THIS IS RECENT, LIKE 10 YEARS, AND PRETTY MUCH ACCEPTED.

SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THERE WERE FIELDS AND SOME IRRIGATION, BUT IF THERE WAS, IT WAS MINIMAL.

MOST OF THE FOOD HAD TO BE BROUGHT IN, ALL OF THE TIMBERS FROM 50 TO 70 MILES, 240,000 TIMBERS.

>>LORENE: I CAN'T IMAGINE.

>>ANNA: SO WHAT IS, AGAIN, THAT MAGNETISM THAT MADE PEOPLE GIVE THAT KIND OF LABOR TO DO IT.

I THINK ANOTHER THING THAT IS SO COMPELLING IS THAT IT IS A CENTER, IT'S THE CENTER OF THE WHOLE SAN JUAN BASIN.

SO WHEN YOU DO EVEN TODAY, DRIVE THE 20-SOME MILES IN FROM THE EAST AS PEOPLE DO, YOU'RE GOING NOWHERE, THERE'S NOTHING HERE, NOTHING HERE, AND THEN SUDDENLY YOU COME TO THE CANYON, THE TOWERING BUTTE, RIGHT AT THE ENTRANCE.

THIS IS THE PLACE.

>>LORENE: ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED YOU TO COME HERE IS THAT I HAVE HEARD THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO ALLOW, THERE'S BEEN A 10-MILE PROTECTIVE PERIMETER AROUND CHACO THAT NO ONE CAN MESS WITH.

WELL, PRESIDENT TRUMP NOW WANTS TO REMOVE THAT PROTECTIVE PERIMETER, AND ALLOW OIL AND GAS DRILLING, ITS A VERY RICH OIL AND GAS AREA, BUT THE SHOCKING THING IS THIS A 1000 YEAR OLD UNESCO WORLD HERITAGE SITE, EVEN THE VIEWSCAPE, EVEN THE PUMPING AND THE NOISE AND THE TRUCKS OF OIL INDUSTRY, IT NEEDS TO BE PROTECTED, BUT THIS PRESIDENT FEELS THAT IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE PROTECTED.

I THINK WE ALL NEED TO SPEAK UP ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THERE'S A WONDERFUL QUOTE FROM THE NATIONAL PARKS CONSERVATION ASSOCIATION "REVOKING CHACO CANYON PROTECTIONS WOULD RISK A THOUSAND YEARS OF HISTORY.

THIS DECISION SENDS A DANGEROUS MESSAGE THAT NO PLACE, NOT EVEN ONE THAT HOLDS A THOUSAND YEARS OF HISTORY IS TOO IMPORTANT TO SACRIFICE FOR OIL AND GAS DRILLING."

THAT'S FROM MAUDE DINAN, WHO IS WITH THE NATIONAL PARKS CONSERVATION ASSOCIATION.

I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO SPEAK OUT.

>>ANNA: ABSOLUTELY AND PEOPLE HAVE.

MORE THAN A DOZEN OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL AND CULTURAL PROTECTION GROUPS, JUST EXTRAORDINARY, THE TWENTY PUEBLOS.

>>LORENE: EVERY FEDERAL LAWMAKER, I MEAN, THEY'VE ALL SPOKEN UP SAYING LEAVE IT ALONE YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

MATTER OF FACT, EXPAND THE PERIMETER.

>>ANNA: EXACTLY, TAKE IT TO 20 MILES.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE OF THOSE SACRED ROADS GO SO FAR, YOU CAN'T BE HACKING UP THE GREAT NORTH ROAD, IT'S IRREPLACEABLE.

>>ANNA: ABSOLUTELY.

ONCE YOU'VE DONE THAT, THESE SITES ARE VERY FRAGILE AND VERY SUBTLE AND IF THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING OUT THERE, IT WOULD BE FOR FURTHER RESEARCH, FOR THE DATA COLLECTING WITH LIDAR, WHICH IS NOT DISTURBING, IT'S REMOTE SENSING.

AND THEN WE'D SEE MORE AND KNOW MORE, IF THEY EVER WANTED TO KNOW MORE, BUT I THINK WE'RE DEALING WITH THE ANTI-WOKE.

THING, YOU KNOW, WHY WOULD ANCIENT INDIAN SITES BE IMPORTANT TO THEM, HE'S GOT ANDREW JACKSON RIGHT BEHIND HIM AT HIS DESK, AND HE'S GOT CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS AND A NEW STATUE.

THIS IS NOT FRIENDLY TO THE GREAT TRADITIONS AND I HOPE WE CAN LET PEOPLE KNOW, NOT JUST IN THE COUNTRY, ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, BUT EVEN THE WORLD, THAT CHACO IS AS IMPORTANT AS SOME OF THESE GREAT SITES LIKE STONEHENGE AND THE MAYAN TEMPLES.

SO THAT'S BEEN MY EFFORTS AND I HOPE TO DO THAT IN MY NEW FILM WHERE WE'RE LOOKING AT STONEHENGE, THE HOPEWELL MOUNDS THAT HAVE BEEN OVERRUN BY INDUSTRY.

WE FOUND AN EXTRAORDINARY OCTAGON, ANOTHER WORLD HERITAGE SITE.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

>>ANNA: ALIGNED TO THE MOON, JUST LIKE CHACO.

THEN WE FILMED AT PALENQUE BECAUSE WE'RE IN THE YEAR OF THAT EXTREME OF THE MOON AND WE FOUND THE MOON LINED UP THERE TO A BEAUTIFUL TEMPLE.

WE'RE WORKING WITH RESEARCHERS FROM THESE SITES TO SHOW PARALLELS AND SO THAT YOU UNDERSTAND CHACOS SHOULD BE ON A WORLD STAGE AND UNDERSTOOD THAT, AND OF COURSE THE UNESCO DESIGNATION SAYS IT, NOT THAT TRUMP WOULD EVER KNOW THAT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO SPELL UNESCO OR WHAT IT STANDS FOR.

THAT'S WHY IT'S UP TO US AS CITIZENS WHO CARE ABOUT THESE THINGS TO SPEAK UP AND TO SAY EXPAND THE PREDICTIVE REALM, DON'T REMOVE IT.

>>ANNA: YEAH, AND WE HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE'RE IN A COUNTRY THAT HAS LOOKED AT THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST, ESPECIALLY THE DESERT, AS RESOURCES FOR EXPLOITATION FOR MINERALS, COAL DEVELOPMENT, A LOT OF URANIUM IN THE 70S AND 80S AND NOW THE FRACKING, ESPECIALLY TO THE NORTH, AROUND THE NORTH ROAD.

>>LORENE: I NOTICED THAT SEVEN YEARS AGO YOU HAD TO FIGHT THE FRACKING COMING CLOSE TO CHACO.

THAT TURNED OUT PRETTY GOOD AND WE WERE ABLE TO KEEP THEM AWAY.

>>ANNA: WELL, THE BUFFER ZONE HELPED, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, DEB HAALAND AND THEN THE PUEBLOS WERE SO STRONG IN THEIR OBJECTIONS.

PROTECTING ADVOCACY IS GETTING STRONGER, IT'S MORE PROVOKED AT THE MOMENT BECAUSE THEY ONLY GAVE A SEVEN-DAY NOTICE OVER THE EASTER WEEKEND, SO REALLY A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE PREOCCUPIED, FOR US TO COMMENT, WHEREAS, IN THE ORIGINAL, WITH DEB HAALAND AT THAT TIME, THERE WAS 150 DAYS AND EIGHT IN-PERSON MEETINGS FROM FARMINGTON TO ALBUQUERQUE AND EVERYBODY GOT A CHANCE TO GIVE THEIR VOICES.

>>LORENE: BUT THEY'RE JUST FAST-TRACKING IT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW AND THEY WANT TO GO AHEAD AND PROFIT OVER EVERYTHING.

>>ANNA: WE HAVE TO GET OUR VOICES EVEN STRONGER UNDER THIS FOR CHACO.

THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED TO BRING YOU HERE AND TO TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP JUST HAS BLINDERS BLINKERS ON AND HE JUST WANTS, IT'S VERY TRANSACTIONAL WHAT'S IN IT FOR HIM, HE WANTS TO SUPPORT THE OIL AND GAS PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN HIS FINANCIAL SUPPORTERS SO MUCH AND THEN THE HISTORIANS AND THE NATIVE PEOPLE AND THE CHACO RESEARCHERS LIKE YOU HAVE TO SPEAK UP AND SAY, NOT HERE, NOT NOW.

>>ANNA: I KNOW AND THAT WONDERFUL QUOTE SAYS, "IF YOU'RE WILLING TO TAKE ON SUCH A PRECIOUS CULTURAL HISTORY, WHAT ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO DO IN THIS COUNTRY WITH YOUR GREEDY GRASPING OF MATERIALS" >>LORENE: AND TO THINK, HOW LONG IS THE GREAT NORTH ROAD?

>>ANNA: 35 MILES.

>>LORENE: SO IS IT WITHIN A 20-MILE BOUNDARY?

>>ANNA: NO, NO, IT'S ALREADY BEEN FRACKED AND PORTIONS OF IT.

BUT TO BRING IT CLOSER TO THE PARK IS REALLY TRAGIC BECAUSE THE NOISE POLLUTION, THE DISTURBANCE WITH THE BIG TRUCKS GOING IN AND OUT.

AND I'VE HEARD RUMORS THAT THE COUNTY AND BLM ARE SUPPORTING THE COUNTY AND PAVING POSSIBLY THE ROAD AS YOU GET TO THE CANYON.

THAT WOULD BE VERY MUCH LIKE WHAT HAPPENED TO MESA VERDE.

ONCE YOU PAVE THE ROAD, AND THEN THE TOURIST TRUCKS COME IN, BUSES COME IN AND YOU HAVE SUCH A CROWD THAT THEY CAN'T ALLOW THEM TO GO INTO THE RUINS.

WHEREAS NOW, YOU KNOW WHEN YOU GO THERE, IT'S JUST A WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE.

>>LORENE: YES, YES, IT IS.

>>ANNA: IT'S GENERALLY QUITE SILENT AND YOU CAN FEEL LIKE YOU'RE THERE A THOUSAND YEARS AGO.

>>LORENE: YES, YES, YES AND THE VIEWSCAPE IS VERY IMPORTANT.

YOU DON'T WANT TO LOOK OUT EVEN IF IT'S TEN MILES AWAY AT OIL PUMPS AND EVERYTHING.

YOU NEED TO EXPERIENCE THE TIMELESSNESS OF SUCH A COSMIC SITE AS THAT, THAT YOU CAN LOOK OUT AS IF YOU WERE THERE, AS YOU SAID, A THOUSAND YEARS AGO.

>>ANNA: AND UNDERSTAND WHAT DREW THEM THERE, WHAT THAT MAGNETISM WAS, HOW A BUTTE WOULD DRAW PEOPLE TO PUT THREE SLABS IN ALIGNMENT WITH THE SUN AND THE MOON, WHY?

IT'S BECAUSE THE LAND HAS POWER AND IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO UNDERSTAND HOW TRUE THAT WAS.

THE NORTH ROAD WAS A MOMENT OF 'WHOA'- WAY NORTH FOR MAKING THAT HUGE EFFORT IN PARALLEL ROADS AND PLACES, DIGGING OUT 30 FEET WIDE STRAIGHT, WHY?

AND IT TURNS OUT NOT JUST DIRECTION BUT LANDSCAPE, JUST LIKE INSTEAD OF PUTTING THE SLABS RIGHT ON THE EARTH, FLAT SURFACE, THEY GO UP THAT BUTTE AND MOVE THESE SLABS INTO POSITION.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, BUT THEY'RE HUGE SLABS AND THEY HAD TO REALLY KNOW.

>>ANNA: THEY HAD TO KNOW.

>>LORENE: THEY HAD TO HAVE THEIR ASTRONOMER THERE AND THEIR ENGINEERS THERE.

>>ANNA: SUCH OBSERVANCE, OBSERVATION, TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THE INFORMATION, TO KNOW HOW TO MAKE SHADOW OF THE MOON JOIN WITH THE DAGGER OF LIGHT FROM THESE TWO DIFFERENT ANGLES.

>>LORENE: YOU KNOW, I'M CONSTANTLY IN AWE OF WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DID.

>>ANNA: YEAH, BECAUSE WE COULDN'T DO IT.

>>LORENE: NO, NO, NO.

>>ANNA: WE COULDN'T BUILD BONITO.

I FIND THIS STUFF FASCINATING.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS ANNA SOFAER, SHE'S ONE OF THE LEADING CHACO RESEARCHERS AND FOUNDED SOMETHING CALLED THE SOLSTICE PROJECT, IS THERE A WEBSITE FOR THAT?

>>ANNA: YES, JUST SOLSTICEPROJECT.ORG.

WE HAVE A NEW FILM I MENTIONED, BUT IF YOU WANT TO SEE MORE ABOUT IT, IT'S CALLED FROM THE MIND'S EYE BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT THE CONCEPTUAL POWER OF TRADITIONAL PEOPLE TO SEE AND CREATE FROM, ENVISIONING.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU'VE BROUGHT THAT TO US TODAY, I THANK YOU, ANNA SOFAER.

>>ANNA: WELL, THANK YOU AND THANK YOU FOR CARING SO MUCH ABOUT CHACO.

>>LORENE: I KNOW WE HAVE TO PROTECT IT, BUT I HAVE TO GO.

I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR GUEST, ANNA SOFAER AND THIS IS REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

♪ MUSIC