>> Laura: FOR DECADES YOU HAVE BEEN SOMEONE WHO HAS TALKED ABOUT DECOLONIZATION AND EDUCATION.

I HAVE SEEN YOU QUOTED ABOUT THE PROCESS OF DECOLONIZING, UNDERSTANDING HOW COLONIZATION WORKS AND ALSO HOW IT DEHUMANIZES THE COLONIZER.

WHY IS DECOLONIZATION AND EDUCATION AROUND DECOLONIZATION SO CRITICAL TO UNDERSTANDING CAPITALISM AND ALSO ENVIRONMENTAL INJUSTICES?

>> Sandoval: THOSE ARE ALL TIED TOGETHER.

THE TERRIBLE THING ABOUT COLONIZATION IS THAT FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN EVEN THEIR MINORITY, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BRITISH WERE A VAST MINORITY IN INDIA BUT THEY WERE ABLE TO RULE IT BECAUSE OF THE PROCESS OF COLONIZATION WHERE THEY DEHUMANIZED THE PERSONS WHOSE COUNTRY THEY TAKE OVER AND WHOSE RESOURCES THEY STEAL FOR THEIR OWN USES.

AND THEN OVER TIME, THEY TEACH THE PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE COLONIZED, THAT THEY HAVE CONQUERED, THAT THEY ARE SECOND RATE, THEY ARE INFERIOR AND ALL THE TOOLS THEY HAVE AT THEIR DISPOSAL, MEDIA, EVERYTHING IS USED TO KEEP HAMMERING THE IDEA TO THE COLONIZED PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE SUBHUMAN, YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE.

YOU'RE POOR BECAUSE OF YOUR OWN FAILING.

IT IS YOUR FAULT.

I AM WEALTHY, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

IF I MADE IT, WHY CAN'T YOU MAKE IT.

AND THEY TROT OUT EXAMPLES EVERY SO OFTEN OF A BROWN FACE THAT HAS MADE A MILLION AND IS A MULTI-MILLIONAIRE.

AND THE PHRASE WE USE IN AMERICA OVER AND OVER IS ONLY IN AMERICA.

AND THEY TROT OUT IMMIGRANTS, OH, YEAH, ONLY IN AMERICA.

THAT IS NOT TRUE.

THERE IS PEOPLE GOING FROM POVERTY TO WEALTH ALL OVER THE GLOBE IN EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY IN EVERY ECONOMY, BUT IT IS PART OF THE MYTH AND LIE OF COLONIZATION, THAT AMERICA IS THE SHINING LIGHT ON THE HILL AND THAT ONLY THAT WE ARE THE GUARDIANS OF JUSTICE.

AND THE REALITY IS, THE U.S., SINCE THE END WORLD WAR II HAS BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR MURDERING SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 20 AND 30 MILLION PEOPLE IN PROXY WARS AND INDIRECT INTERVENTIONS.

NEED I SAY, GAZA AND ISRAEL TODAY.

WE CAN GO ON ALL DAY.

HAITI.

FOR YEARS AND YEARS, EVERY TIME WE DIDN'T LIKE WHAT WAS GOING ON IN HAITI, WE WOULD SEND IN THE TROOPS AND NOW IT IS COMPLETELY COLLAPSING BECAUSE OF THIS CONTINUED INTERVENTION.

THE OTHER ISSUE IS THE BORDER, WHICH IS REALLY A HOT TOPIC BUT WHY ARE ALL THESE CENTRAL AMERICANS TRYING TO GET TO THE U.S.?

BECAUSE WE INVENTED GUNBOAT DIPLOMACY.

THE U.S., THE MONROE DOCTRINE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 1800'S WHERE WE TOLD EUROPE, THIS IS OUR AREA TO EXPLOIT.

IF WE DIDN'T LIKE THE DEMOCRATICALLY-ELECTED GOVERNMENT IN, LET'S SAY, GUATEMALA, WE USED GUNBOAT DIPLOMACY, LITERALLY.

WE SENT IN WAR SHIPS TO OVERTHROW FREELY-ELECTED GOVERNMENTS.

WE DID IT AS RECENTLY AS CHILE WITH ALLENDE.

WE JUST GAVE THE OKAY TO PINOCHET AND THE MILITARY.

WE SENT IN THE CIA AND WE JUST LITERALLY BOMBED THEM AND WE KILLED THEM.

THAT WAS ALL HENRY KISSINGER, THAT WAS THE U.S. WE JUST KEEP DOING IT.

SO, THEN WE ACT SHOCKED, WHY DON'T THEY JUST STAY IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY?

BECAUSE WE HAVE STOLEN EVERYTHING FROM THEM, THAT IS WHY THEY ARE HERE.

WE HAVE THEIR WEALTH.

SO IT IS COMPLICATED.

I AM MAKING IT MORE SIMPLE THAN IT IS, BUT THAT IS THE GENERAL TREND.

>> Laura: YEAH.

WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS IN THE PAST.

YOU HAVE A POSTCAPITALIST POSTMODERATE VISION FOR SOCIETY ESPECIALLY FOR INDIGENOUS AND MEXICANOS TACANO PEOPLE AND WORKING PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO.

AND YOU HAVE TALKED TO ME ABOUT THIS IDEA OF BACK TO THE FUTURE.

WILL YOU TALK ABOUT THIS VISION?

>> Sandoval: YES, BECAUSE FUTURE SOCIOLOGISTS ARE JUST STARTING TO WRITE ABOUT PREFIGURATIVE MODELS FOR A POSTCAPITALIST ECONOMY.

FOR ME IT MEANS -- IN NEW MEXICO IT MEANS FOR OUR COMMUNITIES GOING BACK TO THE FUTURE.

THAT IS, ALL OF OUR PUEBLO AND COMMUNITIES STILL EXIST AND ALWAYS EXISTED AND LIVED IN COMMUNAL MODELS.

THEY HAD KIVAS.

THEY HAD CLANS.

THEY HAD KINSHIP AND STILL HAVE THAT.

SO, THEY WERE ACCUSTOM, AS A WAY OF OPERATING IN THE WORLD AND WITH EACH OTHER, TO DO IT AS A COMMUNAL EXERCISE ALWAYS.

AND THE LAND-BASED CHICANO COMMUNITIES HERE IN NEW MEXICO, WE HAD ACEQUIAS, WHICH ARE COMMUNAL MODELS, LAND GRANTS WERE COMMUNAL MODELS.

AND THOSE WERE ECONOMIC MODELS NOT JUST SOCIAL MODELS.

BUT RELIGION, ECONOMY, SOCIAL LIFE, ALL OF OUR SOCIAL INTERACTIONS, IN BOTH OUR INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES IN NEW MEXICO AND OUR LAND-BASED CHICANO COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN HERE ABOUT 400 YEARS WERE COMMUNAL MODELS.

THAT IS HOW WE LIVED.

AND WE HAVE GOTTEN AWAY FROM IT BECAUSE OF THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM AND THE EMPHASIS ON INDIVIDUAL ACHIEVEMENT AND MY ACHIEVEMENT, MY SUCCESS AT YOUR FAILURE, AND THAT KIND OF STUFF.

SO, WHAT WE PREACH IN OUR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT MODELS AND IN OUR WORK EVERYDAY IS LET'S JUST GO BACK TO THE FUTURE.

SO, WE FORMED CO-OPS.

WE TRY TO GET THEM TO INCORPORATE AS CO-OPS WHICH THE CAPITAL SYSTEM STILL PERMITS.

THEY ARE COMMUNAL MODELS OF OWNING.

THEY ARE MEANS OF PRODUCTION SO WE GET THEM, SO WE DON'T CALL THEM CLANS OR KINSHIP, BUT OUR COMMUNITIES ARE VERY FAMILIAR AND HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN HOW TO WORK COOPERATIVELY.

SO, WE ARE NOT ALWAYS SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE THE IMPACTS OF COLONIZATION HAVE CREATED HUGE DESTRUCTION.

WE HAVE INTERNALIZED COLONIZATION.

SO, PEOPLE DON'T FEEL THEY ARE WORTHY OF SUCCESS.

I MEAN, WE MEDICATE OURSELVES.

WE HAVE A HUGE ALCOHOL, FENTANYL, HEROIN PROBLEM ALL OVER RURAL NEW MEXICO IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND IT IS WIPING THEM OUT.

IT IS HOLLOWING OUT OUR RURAL COMMUNITIES AND WE ARE TRYING TO FIGHT AGAINST THAT.

>> Laura: SO, THIS IS LIKE A CONVERSATION THAT I FEEL LIKE WE ALL WANT TO HAVE OR MANY OF US WANT TO HAVE AND WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO.

I THOUGHT YOU AND I COULD HAVE IT.

I FEEL LIKE SOMETHING THAT MANY OF US STRUGGLE WITH IS DIVISIVENESS AND DISINFORMATION.

AND I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON HOW WE RECOGNIZE AND RESPECT ONE ANOTHER'S DIFFERENCES WHILE ALSO BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS AND SEWING LOVE AND FIGURING OUT WAYS TO SUSTAIN LONG-TERM MOVEMENTS AGAINST SYSTEMS LIKE CAPITALISM THAT HARM PEOPLE AND THE ENVIRONMENT?

>> Sandoval: I WISH THERE WAS ONE SIMPLE ANSWER TO THAT.

THERE ISN'T.

CAPITALISM IS A VERY COMPLEX THING AND CONSTANTLY CHANGING AND ADAPTING TO MEET THREATS TO ITS EXISTENCE, BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO DO A LOT OF THINGS.

THERE IS NO ONE SILVER BULLET.

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF REALLY FANTASTIC COMMUNITIES AND PEOPLES ALL ACTIVELY WORKING WITHIN THE EXISTING POLITICAL SYSTEM AND THEY ARE HAVING IMPACT.

HERE IN NEW MEXICO, I KNOW THERE IS A LOT OF GROUPS WORKING TO CHANGE ISSUES AND I THINK THEY HAVE CHANGED THE MAKEUP OF THE LEGISLATURE.

THERE IS YOUNGER, MORE PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE NOW IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS IN BOTH THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND THAT IS A GOOD THING BECAUSE OVERALL WE ARE GETTING BETTER LEGISLATION THAT COMES OUT OF THAT.

THAT IS HELPING POORER COMMUNITIES AND MORE IMPACTED COMMUNITIES.

WE HAVE TO DO THE ONGOING WORK EVERYDAY LIKE, YEAH, VOTING, BLAH, BLAH, I DON'T THINK SO.

WE CAN GET CYNICAL.

IT'S EASY TO GET CYNICAL.

WE HAVE TO DO THAT BUT WE CAN ALSO DO OUR OWN THINGS.

WE HAVE TO START CREATING OUR OWN SYSTEMS THAT ARE MAYBE SMALL SCALE BUT THAT CAN GROW OVER TIME, THAT WE OWN, THAT WE CONTROL, THAT BENEFIT US DIRECTLY AND FORCE US TO BECOME SMARTER, MORE ADEPT AND MORE AGILE IN EVERYTHING WE DO.

LOVE IS THE MOST POWERFUL FORCE IN THE WORLD.

I WENT THROUGH A PERIOD WHEN I WAS FIRST STARTING OUT AS A YOUNG ACTIVIST WHERE I HATED WHITE PEOPLE OR I THOUGHT I DID.

I WENT THROUGH ABOUT A YEAR WHERE I TOLD ALL MY WHITE FRIENDS, DON'T CALL ME, I NEVER WANT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE DEVILS AND I'LL RUN THEM OVER IF I SEE THEM OUT ON THE STREET.

OF COURSE, I DIDN'T.

BUT I DID GO THROUGH A PERIOD WHERE I FELT HATRED IN MY HEART.

AFTER ABOUT A YEAR, I NOTICED THAT IT WAS DOING A LOT OF DAMAGE TO MYSELF.

I DECIDED THAT IS NOT A GOOD PATH.

AND REALLY THE ONLY WAY FOR US TO SUCCEED IS TO -- WE HAVE TO WORK ON OURSELVES, UNDERSTAND IF THERE IS INTERNAL COLONIZATION ISSUES, WORK THEM OUT.

IT IS NOT EASY TO FACE OURSELVES AND BE HONEST ABOUT WHO WE ARE AND WHAT OUR FAILINGS MIGHT BE AND HOW WE BECOME BETTER.

THEN IT IS REAL HARD TO HAVE THE COURAGE TO OPEN YOURSELF TO OTHERS.

AND JUST SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, NOW I TRY TO FOLLOW WHAT MARTIN LUTHER KING SAID, WHICH IS, IN HIS FAMOUS SPEECH, WE SHOULD JUDGE EACH OTHER BY THE CONTENT OF OUR CHARACTER AND NOT THE COLOR OF OUR SKIN.

THAT IS THE MANTRA WE USE AT THE CENTER.

I DON'T CARE WHAT COLOR, SHAPE, I DON'T CARE WHO, I DON'T CARE WHAT KIND OF DOG YOU HAVE.

REALLY, ARE YOU A PERSON OF GOOD SOUL AND GOOD HEART?

IF YOU ARE, I AM WILLING TO ENGAGE WITH YOU AND I DON'T CARE WHAT COLOR YOU ARE OR ANYTHING ELSE.

I THINK THAT IS THE PATH FOR US TO FIND THE HUMANITY IN EACH OTHER AND TRY TO NURTURE THAT, RESPECTING BOUNDARIES, YOU KNOW, BUT STILL BEING OPEN TO OTHERS.

THE REASON THERE IS SO MUCH HATRED, I THINK, IN THE WORLD IS WE ARE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR HOW WE ARE DIFFERENT.

INSTEAD OF THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, WE ARE THESE LITTLE CREATURES ON THIS BEAUTIFUL SMALL PLANET SPINNING THROUGH SPACE AND WE ARE EARTHLINGS.

AND I CALL ALL MY EARTH DAY BUDDIES EARTHLINGS WHEN I WROTE THEM OR CALL THEM, I SAY HELLO EARTHLINGS, BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ALL WE ARE.

WE ARE ALL -- THERE IS REALLY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND WE SHOULD SEPARATE THE CULTURAL UNIQUENESS OF EACH OTHER BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY WE ARE ON THIS SHIP TOGETHER.

IF WE DON'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX IT, WE ARE ALL GOING UNDER TOGETHER.

>> Laura: ARTURO, I APPRECIATE ALL THAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM YOU OVER THE YEARS AND I APPRECIATE ALL YOU HAVE DONE FOR NEW MEXICO AND I APPRECIATE YOU COMING IN TODAY.

>> Sandoval: THANKS, SO MUCH.

IT HAS BEEN FUN AND LET'S DO IT AGAIN SOME TIME.

THANKS LAURA.