>> Lou: THANKS TO JEFF, KAREN KINSMAN AND DR. SHELLY GRUENIG FOR THAT CONVERSATION.

WE HAVE MORE INFORMATION ABOUT R-4 CREATING AND THE UNM STEM-H CENTER ON OUR SOCIAL MEDIA PAGES AND ON THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

NOW BACK TO 'OUR LAND' SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS AND HER CONVERSATION WITH LEADERSHIP FROM THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE.

LAURA ASKS HOW THE AGENCY IS WORKING TO BUILD PUBLIC TRUST AS IT ADAPTS ITS FIRE AND FOREST MANAGEMENT IN THE SOUTHWEST'S WARMING CLIMATE.

>> Laura: I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN SOME TENSION BETWEEN THE FOREST SERVICE AND COMMUNITIES, PARTICULARLY IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO.

SHAUN, YOU ARE FROM LAS VEGAS, BUT FAIRLY NEW TO THE JOB AS FOREST SUPERVISOR ON THE SANTA FE.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN YOUR ROLE TO BE BUILDING TRUST?

>> Sanchez: MY MOST IMPORTANT THING, AND IT'S THE PRIORITY FOR ME AND FOR OUR TEAM ON THE SANTA FE, IS TO FOCUS ON TRUST.

AND WHAT I'VE SHARED WITH THE TEAM IS TWO THINGS, THAT IF WE FOCUS ON THESE TWO APPROACHES, THAT WE WILL BE BUILDING TRUST.

AND ONE IS TO KNOW AND RELATE TO OUR COMMUNITY, AND THE OTHER IS TO BE A COMMUNITY ASSET.

KNOWING AND RELATING TO THE COMMUNITY, ONE, IS TO BE A PART OF THE COMMUNITY, AND MANY OF OUR TEAM LIVE IN THE COMMUNITIES.

AND MANY OF OUR TEAM MEMBERS HAVE VERY DEEP ROOTS IN THE COMMUNITIES, AS WELL.

MANY, MANY GENERATIONS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, BEING A PART OF THE COMMUNITY, MEETING WITH PEOPLE ONE-ON-ONE AND ENGAGING.

ONE THING THAT I'VE HEARD A BIT OF FEEDBACK IS MAKING SURE THAT OUR FOLKS ARE LIVING IN THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY SERVE, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO JUST BE SEEN IN THE REARVIEW MIRROR AT THE END OF THE WORKDAY OR ON A FRIDAY.

REALLY LIVE THERE, EXPERIENCE THE STRUGGLES.

ALSO, YOU KNOW, EXPERIENCE THE SUCCESSES.

GET OUT AND MEET ONE-ON-ONE.

SO THAT'S BEEN REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME.

I'VE GONE OUT AND DONE TOURS OF THE HERMIT'S PEAK/CALF CANYON BURN SCAR WITH LOCALS, AND DAVID MARTINEZ, I THINK HE WAS -- ProPUBLICA DID A STORY ABOUT HIM AND HIS PLIGHT IN NOT FINDING A HOUSE.

I'VE GONE AND SAT IN HIS TRAILER WITH HIM IN MONTE APLANADO AND JUST WANTED TO HEAR HIS STORY AND SEE HOW WE COULD HELP.

NOW, THE FOREST SERVICE, WE COULDN'T BUILD HIM A HOUSE, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, WE HELPED FIX THE ROAD TO MONTE APLANADO.

THAT'S ACCESS TO THE FOREST, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE COULD DO.

AND SO THAT'S LIKE AN EXAMPLE OF BEING THAT ASSET, IS KNOWING AND RELATING AND UNDERSTANDING OUR COMMUNITIES.

UNDERSTANDING HERE IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO, WE HAVE EXTREMELY DEEP TIES AND CONNECTIONS TO THE LAND, WHETHER IT'S OUR TRIBAL COMMUNITIES, OR HISTORIC LAND GRANT COMMUNITIES.

AND UNDERSTANDING AND RECOGNIZING JUST HOW IMPORTANT THE LAND IS.

ONE OF MY FRIENDS, MAX TRUJILLO, COUNTY COMMISSIONER IN SAN MIGUEL COUNTY, SAID THAT WE ARE A PEOPLE OF THE LAND, AND UNDERSTANDING THAT GREAT CONNECTION WITH THE LAND AND ALL THAT THE LAND HAS PROVIDED OUR TRIBAL PARTNERS FOR TIME IN MEMORIAL, AND THE LAND GRANT COMMUNITIES FOR CENTURIES.

YOU KNOW, PROVIDING FIREWOOD, HERB GATHERING, PINON PICKING, GRAZING, HUNTING, FISHING.

YOU NAME IT, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LIVING ON THE LAND TOGETHER AS ONE.

AND AS THE FOREST SERVICE, WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP FACILITATE THAT.

HOW DOES THAT ASSET COME IN.

AND SO WHEN WE SAY WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING, WE NEED TO FOLLOW UP AND DO IT, AND BE VERY TRANSPARENT.

THAT AGAIN COMES BACK TO THOSE CONVERSATIONS, WHETHER THEY'RE ONE-ON-ONE CONVERSATIONS, WHETHER THEY'RE TOWN HALL TYPE CONVERSATIONS, WHETHER THEY'RE FIELD TRIPS IN OUR UNITS, MAYBE THAT'S GOING AND WALKING A FENCE LINE WITH THE LAND OWNER AND UNDERSTANDING WHAT MIGHT BE GOING ON THERE, AND THEN TAKING THAT INFORMATION AND TRANSLATING AND SAYING, OKAY, WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP FACILITATE FIREWOOD.

FIREWOOD IS AN INCREDIBLE NECESSARY RESOURCE FOR THE PEOPLE IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO.

THAT'S HOW MOST PEOPLE HEAT THEIR HOMES.

SO WE'RE CONVERTING A LOT OF THE HAZARD TREES RIGHT NOW ON THE BURN SCAR, TAKING THEM AND GETTING THEM -- MAKING IT ALL AVAILABLE.

FREE WOOD PERMITS, THINGS LIKE THAT, WHERE PEOPLE CAN COME OUT INTO THE FOREST.

BUT WE'RE ALSO WORKING WITH MORA COUNTY AND THE NEIGHBORS HELPING NEIGHBORS PROGRAM TO GET WOOD HAULED TO COMMUNITIES.

WE HAULED A BUNCH OF WOOD LAST YEAR FROM THE FIRE TO THE COMMUNITY THERE IN PECOS.

WE'RE LOOKING TO HAUL MORE WOOD TO MORA THIS YEAR.

AND ALSO WITH THE NEIGHBORS HELPING NEIGHBORS, GETTING WOOD TO THOSE PROCESSORS THAT THEN THEY'RE ABLE TO GET TO THOSE ELDERLY FOLKS AND FOLKS THAT MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO GO GET WOOD ON THEIR OWN.

AND SO I THINK FROM A COMBINATION OF KNOWING AND RELATING AND UNDERSTANDING THE NEEDS OF THE COMMUNITY, AND THEN PUTTING IT INTO ACTION, AND THE FOREST SERVICE REALLY BEING A HELPER AND THAT ASSET, I THINK IS A RECIPE FOR BUILDING THAT TRUST WITH THESE COMMUNITIES.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO FIX OUR WILDFIRE CRISIS WITHOUT THE SUPPORT AND HELP OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

SO I FEEL LIKE THIS MAYBE ISN'T SOMETHING THAT FEDERAL OFFICIALS TYPICALLY TALK ABOUT, AND CERTAINLY FEMA IS THE AGENCY THAT'S WORKING ON REBUILDING AND THAT SORT OF THING, BUT I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT THE FOREST SERVICE IS DOING IN TERMS OF RECONCILIATION AND HEALING THAT'S COMING OUT OF THESE.

>> Martin: LAURA, THANK YOU FOR YOUR QUESTION.

AND I THINK IT REALLY GOES TO WHAT SHAUN WAS SHARING JUST A MOMENT AGO, THAT PART OF RECONCILIATION AND PART OF HEALING IS RECOGNIZING OUR PART THAT LED INTO THE DEVASTATING FIRE, AND SHARING AND BEING A PART OF THE SOLUTION, RIGHT.

BEING A PART OF WORKING WITH THE COMMUNITY TO HELP REBUILD LIVES AND LIVELIHOODS POST FIRE.

YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T TAKE AWAY THE PAIN AND THE LOSS, BUT I THINK THAT WHAT WE CAN DO IS PROMISE TO THE COMMUNITY THAT WE WILL BE THERE AND WALK WITH THEM INTO A FUTURE OF REPAIR, RESTORATION, AND REHABILITATION.

SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE CAN DO.

AND WE ARE, ALONG WITH OUR FEDERAL PARTNERS, TRYING TO DO THE MOST THAT WE CAN TO ENSURE THAT WE ARE HELPING FOLKS BECOME WHOLE, THAT THEY ARE RECOVERING WHAT THEY'VE LOST TO THE BEST EXTENT THAT WE CAN.

I KNOW IT'S NOT PERFECT, AND IT'S BEEN A LONG, LONG ROAD, BUT AS SHAUN SAID, WE'RE REALLY JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE CAN DO TO HELP PEOPLE AND THEN DELIVERING ON THAT.

>> Laura: AND DENNIS, I KNOW THESE ISSUES ARE REALLY IMPORTANT TO YOU, AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THEM OVER THE YEARS, BUT WHY SHOULD ANYONE TRUST THE FOREST SERVICE WHEN IT COMES TO PRESCRIBED FIRES?

>> Carril: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

EVERYBODY SAID WE'VE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO, THERE'S NO QUESTION, BUT WHY SHOULD THEY?

I KIND OF TOUCHED ON IT, I THINK, EARLIER IN THAT FIRE IS A PART OF OUR SYSTEM.

IT'S A PART OF OUR BACK YARD.

IT'S JUST LIKE HUNTING AND FISHING AND ALL THE WOOD GATHERING AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

FIRE IS A PART OF THIS, TOO.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO LIVE WITHOUT IT.

SHAUN TOUCHED ON SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT, IT'S A SOCIETAL PROBLEM, IT'S NOT JUST A FOREST SERVICE PROBLEM, BUT WE'RE THE STEWARDS.

WE'RE THE ONES RESPONSIBLE.

I WOULD SAY, WHY SHOULD WE BE TRUSTED?

BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVES AREN'T VERY GOOD.

IF WE THINK A FIRE IS INEVITABLE, THEN HAVING IT PLAY OUT UNDER ITS OWN CIRCUMSTANCES ISN'T A GOOD OPTION I DON'T THINK.

IT'S NOT JUST HERE IN NEW MEXICO, BUT WE SEE IT ACROSS THE WEST.

THERE'S PLACES THAT ARE IN DANGER.

THERE'S PLACES THAT ARE GOING TO BE IN DIRE STRAITS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHEN IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, OR IF IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN OUR LIFETIME, BUT ALL THE INGREDIENTS ARE THERE FOR SOMETHING BAD TO HAPPEN.

SO BY WORKING WITH THE COMMUNITIES, REBUILDING THE TRUST -- THE BIG ONE FOR ME IS TRANSPARENCY ABOUT WHAT, WHEN AND WHERE WE'RE DOING, BUILDING THOSE RELATIONSHIPS.

LIKE THE COMMUNITY MEETING IN SANTA FE THE OTHER DAY WAS GREAT.

CONCERNED LANDOWNERS ASKING HARD QUESTIONS.

THEY WEREN'T COMBATIVE, BUT THEY REALLY WANTED TO KNOW, AND IT WAS A GREAT CONVERSATION.

AND THAT'S THE MODEL I SEE MOVING FORWARD, IS CONTINUING THIS LEVEL OF ENGAGEMENT TO BUILD THAT TRUST AND UNDERSTAND THAT FIRE IS A PART OF OUR LANDSCAPE, IN MY OPINION.

I KNOW PEOPLE DON'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT FOR A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

THIS SITUATION IS VERY COMPLEX.

BUT WE KNOW THE ALTERNATIVE.

I THINK OUR SITUATION IS STILL GOING TO BE BETTER WITH ALL THE THINGS THAT WE CAN CHANGE MOVING FORWARD FROM THIS DISASTER, INTEGRATING WITH OUR COMMUNITY, BUILDING THAT SUPPORT, AND USING THE TOOLS NECESSARY TO DO IT MORE ON OUR TERMS VERSUS BEING AT THE MERCY OF MOTHER NATURE.

>> Laura: WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT TRANSPARENCY AND, YOU KNOW, THE TOWN HALL MEETING AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

I'VE BEEN ASKING THE FOREST SERVICE SINCE APRIL 2022 TO HAVE ON-AIR CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HERMIT'S PEAK/CALF CANYON, PRESCRIBED FIRE, CLIMATE CHANGE, AND IT'S TAKEN A YEAR AND A HALF FOR THAT CONVERSATION TO HAPPEN.

WHAT IS THE FOREST SERVICE DOING IN TERMS OF BETTER TRANSPARENCY WITH THE PRESS?

>> Martin: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, AND I HOPE THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF REALLY JUST BEING AVAILABLE, BEING OPEN AND WILLING TO TALK.

AND I APOLOGIZE THAT IT TOOK SO LONG FOR US TO GET HERE, BUT I CERTAINLY WOULD INVITE ADDITIONAL CONVERSATIONS, SHOULD YOU WANT THEM, AND WE WON'T MAKE YOU WAIT A YEAR AND A HALF AGAIN.

SO I THINK THAT -- SO SORRY THAT IT DID TAKE SO LONG.

EVERYTHING EVEN FROM THE WAY THAT WE WORK WITH THE PRESS DURING SUPPRESSION TO THE KINDS OF ENGAGEMENT THAT SHAUN'S TALKING ABOUT WHEN WE HAVE A PRESCRIBED FIRE, WE ARE REALLY JUST, YOU KNOW, LIFTING UP THE CURTAIN, THROWING THE ROOM OPEN AND JUST INVITING PEOPLE IN, BECAUSE WE SEE THAT AS A NECESSARY STEP TOWARDS REBUILDING TRUST WITH THE COMMUNITY.

SO HOLD US TO THAT, AND I MEAN THAT.

HOLD US TO IT.

>> Laura: SO WE'VE BEEN TALKING A LOT ABOUT POLICIES AND PROTOCOLS, AND CHANGES AND BIG OVERWHELMING ISSUES, BUT SORT OF AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE ARE ALL JUST FOUR HUMAN BEINGS SITTING AROUND A TABLE TOGETHER.

AND CERTAINLY SO MANY NEW MEXICAN LIVES HAVE BEEN IMPACTED.

I'D LIKE TO START WITH YOU, SHAUN.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SAY TO NEW MEXICANS ABOUT LAST YEAR, AND ALSO ABOUT THE FUTURE OF FIRE IN NEW MEXICO'S FORESTS?

>> Shaun: I THINK TAKING A CUE FROM MICHIKO, ONE IS TO APOLOGIZE FOR THE FOREST SERVICES ROLE LAST YEAR.

I WAS WORKING FOR THE U.S.

FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE IN WASHINGTON, D.C. LAST APRIL, AND WATCHING THE BRIEFINGS AND EVERYTHING GOING ON SO FAR AWAY WAS A PRETTY HELPLESS FEELING FOR ME.

MY PARENTS WERE EVACUATED FOR I THINK A TOTAL OF ABOUT FIVE WEEKS.

I'VE GOT A COUSIN THAT LOST A HOME.

NUMEROUS FRIENDS AND FAMILY EVACUATED, AND I'VE SEEN A LOT OF THE DEVASTATION AND DESTRUCTION THAT OCCURRED BECAUSE OF LAST YEAR.

AND IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT.

I CAN'T PUT INTO WORDS THE FEELING THAT I HAVE, AND I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE THOSE THAT LOST EVERYTHING.

AND THEIR LIVES WILL BE FOREVER CHANGED.

SO I TOTALLY RECOGNIZE THAT.

AND WHAT MY COMMITMENT IS -- I GUESS I SHOULD GO BACK AND SAY, IT ACTUALLY CHANGED MY LIFE, AS WELL, BECAUSE IT CHANGED MY TRAJECTORY.

I HAD BEEN TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO COME BACK HOME, AND HERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO COME HOME AND HELP, TO HELP TRY TO HEAL, TO HELP RECOVER, RESTORE, AND TO REALLY THINK ABOUT THE POSSIBILITIES IN THE FUTURE AND HOW WE CAN LIVE TOGETHER AND WORK TOGETHER, KNOWING JUST HOW IMPORTANT THE LAND IS TO PEOPLE IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO.

AND AS DENNIS SAID, THE STEWARDS THAT HAVE BEEN ENTRUSTED THIS RESPONSIBILITY IS THE FOREST SERVICE.

IT'S NOT A RESPONSIBILITY THAT WE TAKE VERY LIGHTLY, AND WE ARE COMMITTED TO BEING A PART OF THE COMMUNITIES, AND WE'RE COMMITTED TO WORKING WITH OUR COMMUNITIES TO ADDRESS THE CRISIS THAT'S BEFORE US AND TO REALLY HEAL, RECOVER, RESTORE, AND BUILD A REALLY NEW FUTURE FOR NORTHERN NEW MEXICO TOGETHER.

>> Laura: DENNIS, THE FUTURE OF FIRE IN NEW MEXICO.

>> Carril: IT WILL BE HERE.

IT'S GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ENGAGE ON, AND IT'S GOING TO BE A PART OF OUR LIVES.

THE FUTURE OF FIRE, I THINK I'VE TOUCHED ON IT BEFORE.

IT'S THIS REACTIVE VERSUS PROACTIVE THING, AND I'LL TOUCH ON IT AGAIN.

AGAIN, BUILDING THE TRUST, HAVING THE TRANSPARENT CONVERSATIONS, ENGAGING, MAKING THIS A CULTURAL SHIFT HERE IN NEW MEXICO TO ACCEPT, ACKNOWLEDGE, AND DEAL WITH FIRE TOGETHER, NOT JUST THE AGENCY IN A VACUUM, BUT TRYING TO BE TRANSPARENT.

THERE AREN'T VERY GOOD OPTIONS FOR US, BUT WE KNOW, LIKE FROM CERRO PELADO -- THE STORY'S NOT OUT THERE YET, AND I'M GLAD YOU HAVE ONE MORE TIME SLOT HERE.

THE IRONY OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT FIRE, THE ESCAPED PRESCRIBED FIRE, BUT THE INTERACTIONS WITH THE TREATMENTS FROM THE LANDSCAPE PROJECT THERE THAT HAPPENED IN THE EARLY 2010s UP AGAINST OVER ALMOST 40 MILE AN HOUR WINDS STEERED THE FIRE AWAY FROM THAT COMMUNITY BECAUSE OF THE CUTTING AND BURNING TREATMENTS.

THIS STUFF WORKS.

I WANT THAT TO BE THE FUTURE OF FIRE IN NEW MEXICO, WHERE WE HAVE SUCCESSES LIKE THAT THAT WE'RE INVITED TO TALK ABOUT AND SHARE ABOUT, AND I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT THESE KIND OF TREATMENTS WORK, AND BY WORKING TOGETHER AND FOCUSING AND PRIORITIZING WHERE WE PLACE THESE TREATMENTS, THEY DO WORK, THEY DO HAVE AN EFFECT, AND IT'S A WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO LIVE WITH FIRE GOING INTO CHANGING TIMES IN THE FUTURE.

>> Laura: MICHIKO, WE ARE OUT OF TIME, BUT LAST WORDS.

>> Martin: YES, THANK YOU.

I WON'T SUGARCOAT IT.

WE ARE IN A WILDFIRE CRISIS.

NEW MEXICO IS IN A WILDFIRE CRISIS.

THE GOOD NEWS, THOUGH, IS THAT WE KNOW WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT.

DENNIS HAS TALKED ABOUT MECHANICAL THINNING, PRESCRIBED FIRE.

SO WE KNOW WHAT TO DO IN ORDER TO HELP THE FIVE NATIONAL FORESTS IN NEW MEXICO BE HEALTHY AND BE RESILIENT.

AND WORKING TOGETHER WITH OUR RESIDENTS IN NEW MEXICO, WE CAN GET THERE.

SO I AM VERY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE FUTURE, BUT IT STARTS WITH COMMITMENT TO ADDRESSING THE WILDFIRE CRISIS THAT'S BEFORE US RIGHT NOW.

>> Laura: WELL, THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING IN TO HAVE THIS IMPORTANT CONVERSATION.

I APPRECIATE IT.