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>> Lou: This week on New Mexico the Rio Grande, dry in Albuquerque again.

In Elephant Butte reservoir just a puddle compared to years past.

We visit both spots to explore how we got here and where we go next.

>> Cadol: There's really no free lunch with water.

Like it takes water to save water.

>> Lou: And who gets to draw election maps is the latest tilt yard in the national political jousting match and our state struggles to do it fairly continue.

New Mexico in Focus starts now.

Thanks for joining us this week.

I'm senior producer Lou DiVizio.

Nash Jones is on vacation.

A fresh battleground has emerged as politics and power struggles continue to cleave America into red and blue pieces.

This one centers on redistricting, a word that can be a bit mind numbing but carries serious consequences for our democracy.

Republican controlled states, including Texas, have responded to a call from President Donald Trump to redraw congressional maps in a way that would favor GOP candidates in future elections.

Majority Democrats in California and New York are firing back with maps designed to keep Republicans out of office saying there must be a balance if the other side is going to play dirty.

New Mexicans by now will be getting familiar with Partisan Pugilism over who gets to hold the map drawing pen.

A little later in the show host Nash Jones will get us up to speed on what's happening in our state.

And at the bottom of the hour, executive producer Jeff Proctor speaks with Lieutenant Governor Howie Morales.

A former teacher who had lots to about education in New Mexico and his future plans as the clock winds down on his time in Santa Fe.

But first, the ongoing drought in New Mexico has shown up in the Rio Grande.

Almost completely dry through the city of Albuquerque since July 13th.

It's just the second time this has happened in the last 40 years.

These bleak visuals captured earlier this month, contributing to the grim reality downstream all the way to Elephant Butte, just one of New Mexico█s reservoirs that are at a small fraction of their capacity.

New Mexico in Focus correspondent Elizabeth Miller went down the river to learn about the water management realities that brought us to this point.

And how the Bosque is trying to hang on through the dry spell.

>> Elizabeth: We are standing on the banks of Elephant Butte Reservoir, which this week is just 3.8% full.

Our hotter, drier southwest is starting to make it visible this year in a number of ways, including very low reservoir levels and the Rio Grande, which has been dry through the city of Albuquerque since July 13th.

A combination of factors has led to what we see in our reservoir levels, and what we see in a dry river.

It's both a byproduct of around where and how we use our water, and environmental factors that are making it harder for our snowpack to make it all the way down our rivers.

>> Marken: I think people are shocked.

I think it evokes something really visceral or primal within us to see a river channel dry, particularly because it's something that we really need to live is water and I think it's it's startling to see it.

There have been a lot of concern about the fish in the river as well.

So the way our system was designed that in the springtime, there's typically extra water in the river than what is needed to meet the needs of Middle Valley farmers and their crops and we would typically store that water in upstream reservoirs in the spring and then release at this time of meet the needs of farmers and their crops.

And because we're not able to divert all the water we need for downstream users, at Angostura, the river channel Albuquerque is essentially part of our conveyance system.

So when we have enough water to meet the needs of farmers and their crops, we're moving water through Albuquerque.

And I think the Albuquerque community has grown accustomed to seeing our water moving through the river channel And this year, we just have no water to release to do that.

We came into this irrigation season knowing it was going to be really challenging.

Snowpack conditions in the basin were well below average.

And we knew that the amount of water coming into the Middle Valley this year would also reflect that below average.

>> Cadol: In addition to the low moisture with raising temperatures just every year a little bit hotter, The evaporative demand on that snow is going up.

So more of the snow oblates, evaporates into the atmosphere.

The trees green up faster start pulling out the soil moisture earlier.

And so th And as that snow melts very less and less of it is making it as runoff into the rivers.

When we get down the river like this, where all of our flow is dependent, well, most of the flow is dependent, well most of the flow is dependent on snow melt.

This is the result.

All of our bosque trees, the willows, the cottonwoods, as well as tamarisk and Russian, Olive invasives, like those, are constantly pulling on the groundwater.

Their roots tap down into the moisture down there, and as they pull that out, then underneath the river dries.

And so as the river flows, that water then percolates down to replace that had been pulled out.

That's a natural thing through here.

It's a losing river, we call it.

The river has less and less flow the farther downstream you go.

So as long as it's not dry for too long, the trees can hold on through a bad summer.

And then things recharge in the winter, and they're ready to go the next year.

Two of the worries are, first, that, it might be dry for so long that the water table actually drops below where the roots can reach, and then we can start to see trees dying, abandoning branches, dropping limbs, and eventually dying entirely, or at the very least, becoming more susceptible to parasites like mistletoe.

But then the second factor in the long run is that our cottonwoods are very very old.

There's not been a replacing cohort in a long time.

And that's because we've eliminated flooding on the Rio Grande when we built Cochiti Reservoir.

And so without new young trees coming in, the older ones are just reaching the end of their lifetime, becoming weaker without a natural flooding and eroding, and a river that can create new for trees to establish.

The only option is like, do pull planting and try to plant our own replacement trees.

And that's an incredible amount of work to try to replace what nature used to do for free.

>> Elizabeth: So talk me through what you're doing with these monitoring wells.

>> Cadol: All right.

So these monitoring wells were dug in the early 2000s by the Interstate Stream Commission, and they were trying to get a handle on how much water was being transferred in the subsurface, out of the river, out towards the bosque here, and also towards a low flow conveyance channel to the agricultural drains on the other side and so they built transects of wells so we can see the water table moving away from or towards the river.

We can send this sounder through and once water closes the circuit here, then we'll hear a little beep and use the tape measure here to establish the depth from the wellhead down to the water level.

And here I'm just going to pinch off the tape right when it starts to beep.

And then I can read off the depth to water.

And we know the elevation of the top of this casing.

And so we can calculate that to table elevation.

>> Elizabeth: What's the depth to the water?

>> Cadol: We've got 13.42ft.

>> Elizabeth: For all the plants hoping to get a drink, How does that register?

>> Cadol: So since the winter, it's dropped somewhere on the order of six feet or so.

These plants, the willows and the tamarisk, have deep enough roots that they're almost certainly still in contact with the the fully saturated soil, but the vegetation, like the salt brush here, it's purely living off soil moisture, just water that's retained in the pores of the soil.

>> Elizabeth: What will this research help us understand about how Rio Grande ecosystems are functioning and faring through a dry summer?

>> Cadol: By having these monitoring wells to know exactly what the water level is.

Some of my students are trying to keep track of whether we see any change in the greenness of the landscape.

The trees start to lose leaves because they're under too much water stress, and then correlate with how deep the water is compared to how it how deep it usually is So there's an ecosystem stress piece, but then there's also a water management piece.

Like if you want to convey water down the river or down the low flow to Elephant Butte, you need to know how much water to expect to seep out of the bed of, of the river.

And, maybe optimize your deliveries when that gradient is low.

So maybe, but that takes water to fill up the water table and get the gradient back down.

And then once it evens out, then you can really pump water through.

There's really no free lunch with water like it takes water to save water.

>> Marken: The other thing that's contributed to the not being able to keep the river connected this summer is the district has no ability to store any native Rio Grande water in its upstream reservoirs because of the debt to Texas.

So New Mexico owes 124,000 acre feet of Rio Grande compact debt to the compact.

When New Mexico's carrying a debt that size, it has to first store a volume that volume of water in its upstream reservoirs before it can store water for itself, and then that water has to stay there through irrigation season.

And then it's moved at the end of the irrigation season down to Elephant Butte.

And because that debt is so large that we couldn't have stored that volume in the amount of space that we have upstream.

Another thing that's contributing to it is the amount of water that's in Elephant Butte and Cabello.

In very high flow years, New Mexico actually has to deliver a higher percentage of the flows that enter the Middle Valley, down to Elephant Butte.

And it's actually more challenging to meet that delivery obligation because there's higher losses, because there's over banking through the river, there's more consumption, there's more evapotranspiration, there's more groundwater percolation, and there's very high flow years.

The way our delivery obligations are calculated there's a gage on the river upstream of Cochiti called Otowi and any flow that bypasses or rings that Otowi bell we say, that a percentage of that is required to be delivered down to Elephant Butte.

But if water inflows into the middle valley below that gage, we call it free water, right.

It doesn't increase our debt.

But what gets down there helps, contribute to our deliveries.

So I think very active monsoon seasons are when we start to see us chip away at the debt.

>> Elizabeth: If the Rio Puerco and Rio Salado, like, if they run, is that free water?

>> Marken: Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, and they run fairly frequently and, sometimes actually this time of year we see storm cells develop over those two basins and we get really excited because that's actually something that can help boost supplies to our Socorro Division.

We can actually divert some of that water, but if some of it gets past our diversion and like it's down to Elephant Butte, that counts as a delivery, but it doesn't increase what we owe.

>> Cadol: Elephant Butte, you know, it has not been full since the mid 90s.

Is the last time it filled up to the Delta that the Rio Grande used to fill into it.

And so as that water level dropped, land that used to be lakebed has been re-exposed and re-colonized by vegetation.

In some places like the narrows, that's mostly cottonwood.

If you go down there, you'll see a standing cottonwood forest that's like almost 30 years old, huge trees.

But then you look up on the cliff above them and you can see the bathtub line from where the reservoir water used to be.

So it's clearly all under what would be underwater if the water ever came back.

As you get further down, you get more flats coming out.

And I, I think when we look at it at the like the decadal scale, like we're seeing now, we can attribute most of that to climate.

Now from year to year, exactly the timing of when it's at its low point.

I think water demands downstream will play an effect on that for sure.

But the fact that, you know, it filled to the brim in the 80s because it was cooler and there was lots of snowpack, and it would take a dramatic reversal back to those conditions to probably fill it again.

>> Marken: I think we'll likely see water in the river again through Albuquerque, probably, end of October after irrigation season.

There might be some rain events that could bring enough, inflow into the river to where we could see it briefly reconnect, but I don't I don't see, sustained connectivity until the end of October after irrigation season and things cool off.

>> Elizabeth: Solutions at this point are not obvious, but scientists and water managers are continuing to search for ways to make do for more people with less water.

I'm Elizabeth Miller.

>> Lou: Thanks to correspondent Elizabeth Miller and photojournalists RJ Torres, Joey Dunn and Manny Valdez.

Those shots where water was clearly flowing in the Rio Grande, were from the South Side Water Reclamation Plant.

The only water source apart from recent rains, feeding what is a dry river in the rest of the city right no As the Partizan battle over voting maps is spread across the country, New Mexico continues to struggle with a years long effort to take the job of drawing voting districts out of lawmakers hands.

A resolution to stand up an independent redistricting commission has failed in the Round House each year since the legislature passed our most recent maps in 2021, and a task force meant to inform next steps has gotten shaken up during this national fight.

State Senator Harold Pope and Representative Christina Parajon both Democrats, have resigned, citing Republican efforts in Texas and elsewhere and calling for federal, not state, reform.

In Focus█ Nash Jones sits down with Pope to understand why he felt stepping aside from an effort to create a fairer process in New Mexico was the best course of action.

>> Nash: State Senator Harold Pope Junior, thank you so much for joining us on New Mexico in Focus.

>> Pope: Thanks for having me.

>> Nash: So before we get into the reasons you stepped aside, I do want to take some time to just establish what the New Mexico Redistricting Task Force is and why you were interested in it in the first place.

>> Pope: Sure.

You know, the New Mexico Fair District Task Force was really a, community task force made up of some nonprofits, former elected leaders, elected as well.

To really figure out how we can really make, our system fair when it comes to redistricting in our state.

It's something that came from, I believe, New Mexico First.

And, we did get, some type of reform in the past, for drawing, maps.

And so, this was something that I really wanted to be involved with.

I am a person that flipped a 50/50 district in 2020.

I have no problem with running in any district.

And, especially one that's fair.

But I think we owe it to our citizens to have that to where it's not gerrymandered districts that really keep people in power But number two, really disenfranchized voters.

And in a lot of cases, it ends up disenfranchizing black and brown voters.

>> Nash: And so it's something that you want to see happen here in New Mexico.

You have recently resigned from the task force.

What changed?

>> Pope: Well, what changed, I think, is what's happened in the last few weeks.

President Trump making the call basically give me five seats.

The governor of Texas basically calling a special session, calling it when really it was about flood relief for the citizens, you know, with what they needed.

You had, House members in Texas having to leave to break quorum to try to stop and slow it down.

And at the end of the day, it, ended up happening.

And when I joined, that hadn't occurred.

When the first meeting happened, I had actually met some of the Texas legislators.

I was at a national conference in Boston, met some of them and some of the who had went to Illinois and also talked to members in Ohio, and in Missouri.

And there were talks of that there were plans out there.

So more of this is probably on the way.

And so and so I, I█ll just close and say that really made my decision to I don't think, I can't really my conscience be part of this and say, New Mexico is going to this standard, and these rules and other states are going to gerrymander with impunity.

>> Nash: In regards to Ohio, unlike other states that are involved in this nationally.

Ohio is required to redraw its congressional districts, this year, beginning next month.

As you mentioned, former first lady Michelle Obama famously said that when Republicans go low, Democrats go high.

Is this, a shift in strategy?

Are you interested and in support of more or less a tit for tat effort if GOP led states are going to gerrymander or redistrict, in favor of their party, democratic states should too?

>> Pope: You know, I'm not pushing for when they go low, we go lower go lower.

I think it's in a reality that we are in a situation to where we can't operate under rules, and they don't.

And so we have to operate in the that we're in.

I think Democrats have shown that, we want to see this happen.

Whether you go back to 2021, when there was a bill that had other voting reform mechanisms as well.

There was a bill to have, independent redistricting in every state.

And so I would just say that we can't as me speaking for myself as Democrats, we can't operate under these rules, and bring a pencil to a knife fight.

And so this is where we're at.

>>Nash: The league of women voters, which convenes the taskforce said that the organization was disappointed in your resignation and that of representative Christina Paraholm and that the taskforce was, “Created precisely to provide a forum for the kinds of they raised."

Meaning you and the representative.

"and offers a constructive path to address these challenges."

>> Nash: “Refusal to participate reflects a troubling unwillingness to engage in dialog on critical issues.” What is your response to the League of Women?

>> Pope: Well, I'm not here to disparage the task force.

I think they want to do something that I want to see happen.

I'm just not in agreement with the mechanism.

I think this needs to happen across all states.

I will say that you folks can see the first video.

In the first meeting we had.

I raised some of these issues and these concerns, you know, the meeting, the initial meeting was about the history and and how we got here and what's happened in the past.

But there was never discussion about how we would have federal legislation or ensure that every state operates, operates by these rules.

So going forward, you know, I'd be willing to work with them on that.

But that's not the information or the work that we were doing that I, that I witnessed or I seen.

>> Nash: So, what you're interested in working on is, advocating for federal legislation, not a state by state reform effort.

>> Pope: Correct.

I think, right now -- look, I admit, in a lot of ways, Washington is broken and not getting things done.

And so states, we have to step up.

Right?

And so we pass laws just in general, right.

That Congress doesn't do.

But I think in this case, it's different than just saying our legislative, House and Senate maps and congressional maps.

We are talking about control of Congress.

We're talking about making sure a co-equal branch of government is there for checks and balances.

And with what we've seen, it's so important because we have people just enabling what's coming out of the white House.

So, this is bigger than New Mexico.

And I just think, you know, we have -- this is a bigger problem that we need a bigger solution.

>> Nash: You mentioned California.

I know, New York has also -- the governor there, Kathy Hochul, has expressed interest potentially in joining this the national redistricting fight.

In California, the state legislature has passed, a special election and a resolution and some maps that the voters will weigh in November.

Co-chair of the task force that you just resigned from retired Judge Rod Kennedy, who will be joining us, later this hour, told source New Mexico that it's a, quote, “double standard to say we want fair districts only so long as we're in the majority and we don't have to worry about it.” He also wondered aloud if the rationale for your resignation was a matter of party over principle.

What would be your response to that?

>> Pope: I actually talked with the judge, I know he's going to come on later.

And we kind of talked about this.

This isn't about partisanship or ideology.

It's kind of what I stated to you, this is really -- for me about our democracy and what happens.

>> Nash: What can you do off the task force that you couldn't do on it?

Wasn't there a path to being a part of that task force and participating in some kind of effort?

Even if that were to eventually be advocating for federal law reform or sticking to state reform, knowing that, you're interested in continuing to pursue federal reform, for like, what does stepping off of it allow you to do that sitting on the task force did not?

>> Pope: So, my focus now is, working with our federal delegation, working with other national advocates, advocacy groups on this as well.

And I'll continue to do that, at the same time, once again, I support independent fair redistricting.

I just think it needs to happen in every state.

>> Nash: Well, a court did uphold the constitutionality of New Mexico's congressional district in 2023.

And the judge did find that, the map and the Democratic leaders who created it, legislators who created it did dilute GOP votes in district 2 in the southern part of the district.

And, in that respect, hasn't New Mexico kind of already played this game?

On the national level that we're seeing?

>> Pope: Well, I would just say that, you know, our hands aren't clean, but I would also say in those maps, we also made sure to follow maps that came from the Native American redistricting, what they wanted and so we respected our indigenous communities in our maps.

While there may have been some diluting, looking at the numbers on the Republican side, they also benefited and we did look out for our indigenous communities in those maps.

>>Nash: In addition to resigning you asked that your name, photo, likeness, and future representation of serving on this committee be withdrawn as well.

What's the concern with being associated with the task force that you previously served on?

And if that's the concern, if -- the work of the task force still aligns with your values of fair redistricting.

>> Pope: Yeah, I just -- that was just something that I've seen and talking to people.

It was not as a way to disrespect the the task force in any way.

But I just wanted to ensure that after this is done and I resigned, even though I had been in one meeting, I just wanted to make it clear that, the decisions made from the task force, I was not part of it because -- So, future votes, future policy decisions, future endorsements from the task force that just that it was not a reflection of where my views were at.

>>Nash: Senator, thanks for coming on and talking this through.

>> Pope: Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me and letting me explain.

>> Lou: Following the resignations, the task force met last week intending to move forward with its work.

However, it never got to a set of planned agenda items, instead discussing concerns over who was and was not at the table and how to move forward to hear reactions to the shake up.

Whether the task force's work on state maps makes sense in this moment, and how the group will proceed.

Nash sits down with three of its remaining members Co-Chair retired Judge Rod Kennedy, Democratic State Senator Natalie Figueroa, and Republican Representative Rebecca Dow, all of whom have been involved in reforming redistricting long before it made headlines.

>> Nash: Thank you all for joining us today on New Mexico in Focus.

Appreciate it very much.

>> Figueroa: Glad to be here.

>>Nash: Judge Kennedy, I'd like to start with you as the chair of the task force.

What do you hope -- >> Kennedy: A Co-Chair of the task force.

>> Nash: Thank you, a Co-Chair of the task force What do you hope it accomplishes?

Well, a task force -- I was on the 2020 task force as well, with New Mexico First and I came up with with ideas and standards and, and best practices for redistricting.

They were agreed on, there were some that were agreed on unanimously, some by majority, some that constituted minority reports.

The bottom line was, you know, it was to have fair maps, fair maps that would be competitive, politically, but also reflect, communities of interest and communities of interest are economic, social, cultural.

Of course, they had to have, certain, you know, certain, equality and racial makeup.

We also, you know, and we, we were talking about cultural and economic status.

>>Nash: If that was the work of the previous task force, what would you like this iteration to build upon?

>> Kenney: I think that's what we build upon.

I think the, you know, I mean, part of the job was what do we need from now, or from then?

You know, as, Senator Pope was saying and representative Parajón, you know, in 2021, Congress passed or the House passed a law to restrict gerrymandering, And it got to the Senate, and, and the Senate filibustered it to death.

That's the federal legislation that the Senator Pope was talking about.

As it is at momen, it's dead.

At the same time, the redistricting here, the task force and the commission and the committee, and the federal legislation only deals with federal races, congressional redistricting, particularly, since they're the only district of people.

But it does not deal with -- does not necessarily, deal with state redistricting concerns because those are state things under the United States Constitution >> Nash: The effort that the task force is making.

Representative Dow, you've sat on this task force before in the past as well.

Do you have, other goals besides what Judge Kennedy has shared?

What would you like this task force to do?

>> Dow: What I want to see is balance in the state, and I want to see, representatives, legislators in the House and the Senate who are in competitive seats so that the local people who they're supposed to represent can hold them accountable for their votes when there's not balance and seats are so one-sided for the majority or the minority, then it's very hard to hold representative accountable for their vote.

>> Nash: Would that look like independent redistricting, a commission, taking the role of drawing the maps out of lawmakers hands?

>> Dow: Ultimately, the lawmakers found a way through partisan efforts, in my opinion, to influence the citizens voice.

And so, I would like to see that prohibited.

I don't know how you do that.

We don't want to stop citizens.

You can do it by following the United States Supreme Court suggestions on drawing maps.

not dividing communities of interest, not looking at partisan data, not looking at incumbency data, not having a deviation more than 5% of population, those sorts of things could be done.

And actually we did.

We spent $1 million in taxpayer funds drawing three separate maps.

None of those maps were chosen.

>>Nash: That█s right, because they didn't have to be.

>> Dow: They didn't have to be, ultimately.

>> Nash: Senator Figueroa, you have brought a resolution over the last several years, since 2021, redistricting, working on establishing an independent commission that would, have the authority to draw the maps and those be binding.

That resolution has failed in each session.

Why?

>> Figueroa: In part, because th redistricting committee that was established in 2021 was such a great step forward for New Mexico that there was a general sense -- for many that that we've reformed far enough.

And there's also the general sense that 2030 is far away.

>>Nash: And that's the next time we redistrict.

>> Figueroa: That's the next time we redistrict.

The next time we have census data.

And here we sit in 2025 at the midway point.

And we still haven't dealt with that basic conflict of interest, that was addressed in 2021 with the recognition, we don't have time for a constitutional change.

So, we'll make the reforms we can as best we can in 2021 with the redistricting committee, and we will push for the constitutional change to make it truly independent so that senators and representatives are not literally drawing the lines to their own districts.

But that takes time.

And I think it hasn't passed thus far, in part because it just seemed far enough away.

It's not a high priority.

It doesn't have a sense of urgency.

And if what has happened in the last few weeks haven't lent us a sense of urgency, nothing will.

>> Nash: The resolution has changed.

Responded to feedback over the years.

Most recently, it stopped dealing with the congressional maps.

And that's a lot of what we're talking about when we look at the national landscape right now is the congressional map.

Why doesn't, the task force and the resolutions you've brought, deal with congressional maps anymore >> Figueroa: Because there was a growing recognition that it has to be addressed effectively across all states at the same time.

So it needs to be -- federal legislation.

But as the judge pointed out, that's dead.

And there doesn't seem to be an appetite to accomplish it federally.

I think we're going to have to do it from the states up.

I think the states are going to have to make a compact amongst ourselves, that we will follow redistricting principles all together at the same time.

And when we get enough states signed on, we push that movement from the bottom up.

>> Dow: I happen to be in a House seat that was radically gerrymandered.

Just look at the map.

And so I don't see the 2021 Citizens Redistricting Committee as successful.

In fact, in court, the only lawsuit was regarding CD2 because it's very, very expensive to sue.

>> Nash: So that's Congressional District 2 -- >> Dow: Congressional District 2.

>> Nash: So yes.

Go ahead.

>> Dow: Yes, and the courts found, I'm going to quote it so I don't say it wrong, “that the Democrats intended to entrench their party in and succeeded in substantially diluting their opponents votes” They succeeded at it.

So, what the court said was that wasn't unconstitutional.

We constitutionally have a right to gerrymander.

And that has resulted in 38 states in the US having a trifecta judiciary, executive and legislature of one party.

The people in power are centralizing power.

And they did it with this 21 citizens redistricting committee >> Nash: So the judge did find that the Democratic leadership did intentionally dilute GOP votes in Congressional District 2, but it didn't rise to the level of an egregious and an egregious gerrymander because, the GOP candidates still had a chance of winning.

He pointed to -- >> Dow: So, you█re telling me there█s a chance?

>> Nash: He pointed, yeah, he pointed to the one time that that map had been used, which was, the race between then congresswoman of that -- Harrell, who was the incumbent at the time, and current Congressman Gabe Vasquez, the Democrat.

And how close that race was, he did win.

The Democrat did win, but it was close.

>> Dow: So if a -- the Conservative Party, the GOP party in New Mexico could find the ideal candidate who could raise the money and somehow have a machine that can knock the doors and get out the vote.

They might win, but it isn█t unconstitutional.

Gerrymandering is constitutional.

It's allowed because it's the state's job.

So, New Mexico already did what Texas is now doing.

>> Nash: What was your experience of your district being redrawn?

>> Dow: What it looked like as a candidate walking the doors, knocking doors, because I move to run again was not knowing who's in my district until I ask them their address and pull it up on a map.

Part -- I mean, some parts of the district are east of the Rio Grande, some are west of the Rio Grande.

the only intact community is the city of Socorro.

And quite frankly, it█s where the Democrat candidate who was preselected, who was going to run, lived, and it created 48% of the votes.

>> Nash: So, pretty wonky district.

And that's redistricting that this task force is addressing because it's a state -- >> Dow: They did this design as they drew it.

>> Figueroa: But the task force that currently exists is going back to the basic principles and saying, are those still what we want to fight for between now 2025 and 2030?

Do we want to fight for those same principles?

Do we need to introduce anything new?

What is the path going forward?

Because what this clearly illustrates is the need we have gerrymandered ourselves into a corner as a nation, and we have to find a way out that is sustainable for democracy, because what are we telling voters?

It's supposed to be one person, one vote, and we are telling them your vote.

Your voice doesn't matter.

The people in power, wherever they are, are going to choose who they're going to elect.

>>Nash: Because the maps will decide-- >>Figueroa: Because they will draw the maps.

And we have to consider the health of a representative democracy long term.

If we tell voters their vote doesn't matter, that is not sustainable for a healthy democracy.

And that is the big picture.

And that's very hard to hold on to.

The big picture in the midst of these current urgent battles.

>>Nash: Well, your task force has had some shake ups and two Democratic members have stepped aside, have resigned because of, you know, citing everything that's happening on the national level with partisan fights around redistricting.

Judge Kennedy, how do you feel about those lawmakers stepping aside in response to this national situation?

>> Kennedy: The problem that I had with both of -- with both of the letters of resignation, you know, Senator Pope carried, carried the resolution in the last legislative session for the independent redistricting, constitutional amendment.

That's an honorable thing to do.

He supports -- he supports the idea of fair districts.

But in his letter, he said, this is not the time to do it because of what's happening in Texas, what's happening in Ohio, what's happening.

So and and, you know, in the comment that we can't hold ourselves to a standard when others don't or others are not.

You know, we can stand up for principles here, in New Mexico and, you know, for instance, you know, somebody said a number of years ago, that two wrongs don't make a right, but three do.

That was the National Lampoon.

And that sounds an awful lot like the resignation letters that we saw from Representative Parajón and Senator Pope.

And I wish that I did not have to have the sense of disappointment that the principles could not be talked about, that everything came down to Texas█ Texas█ is screwing with things that we have to as well.

>> Nash: Now, both of these resignations were Democrats on the task force.

You say you're staying on the task force as a Democratic lawmaker.

Also, Democrat Angel Charley, a Senator from District 30 is staying on the task force.

She was unable to join us today.

But she, in your last meeting, voiced concerns about what this means for the now partisan imbalance on the task force.

She was off camera when she said this during a zoom meeting.

I just want to take a look.

[Voice of Senator Charley] We still don't have parity, How do we move forward with that?

That does not sit right with me.

And I cannot rubberstamp this, And I don't want to associate my name with this, because it feels deeply unfair and imbalanced.

>> Nash: Co-Chair Kennedy, Judge Kennedy, how should the task force move forward with these resignations?

>> Kennedy: In asking round, talking with the folks, you know, sponsor of the task force?

It's like pulling hen's teeth, And I don't think these hens have too many teeth to find a Democrat who will now join this task force >> Nash: because of the national landscape, >> Dow: because of that, that show the strain of what happens when balance is lost.

There's no reason for a Democrat to be at the table.

They hold all the cards >> Kennedy: in New Mexico, perhaps and >> Dow: absolute where do they not?

>> Kennedy: But the bottom line you know, we still have Senator Figueroa.

We still have others.

And you know, who are, you know, who want to persevere.

And I'm one of them.

And this idea that, we keep on going toward having something by say, 2028, 2029 that at the latest, but at the end of the 2020 task force with New Mexico first and the last, I think the last thing that was said at any of the meetings was, this is a fight that now has to go on for ten years because New Mexico is going to resist it.

>> Nash: Senator Charlie is Navajo in Laguna and whose Senate district includes Laguna, Acoma, Zuni and his letter pueblos.

Also took issue with the lack of Pueblo representation and Apache representation on the task force.

>> Charley: I'll come off camera and I'm in about tears.

There are so many decisions that get made on behalf of my people, because everybody thinks they're doing the right thing on behalf of us.

And when we ask people to slow down, it feels like punishment.

And so I set that down.

I ask you to consider that I want to be a part of this process.

I do believe in independent redistricting as an ideal, but I want it to make damn sure it represents me and the people of Senate District 30 and our lived experiences.

Thank you >> Nash: so, Judge Kennedy, does force need to slow down until, Pueblo representation in more diverse Native American representation is at the table?

>> Kennedy: I think the Native American representation is extremely important.

I also think that, trying to, trying to find a balance that would take into account every native voice in New Mexico.

It's kind of a it's kind of a tough thing to do.

Some are represented already, some are not.

The Native Caucus is has a repre and, and frankly, That this would come up and would come up in the way that it did, on the heels of, the, Senator Pope and, representative power on, Representative Charlie had nothing to say other than she wants to see redistricting and fair redistricting occur, but she doesn't want to do it without conditions that apply.

>> Nash: Well, moving forward, I just want to ask what you would like to see the task force take on whether that is recruitment.

What what whether that is a, a goal of, rubber stamping or, approving prior, recommendations, adding new ones.

What do you want to see the task force do?

Briefly, >> Figueroa: I would like them to analyze the previous task force work and determine whether it's still applicable, whether it's still work we want to move forward with in New Mexico.

I would like to see parity on the task force, and I would have no problem with broadening the base or the membership of the task force, but that's a change in the scope of work and mid decade.

It's hard to get people excited about something that we're not going to do for five more years.

>> Nash: Representative Dow.

>> Dow: I'd like to see an analysis of the 2021 outcome of the Citizens Redistricting Committee and to see if it aligns with the United States Supreme Court recommendations, constitutional versus ethical, aligned with the goals of fair representation and communities of interest.

Again, the gerrymandering was done and acknowledged, but is it ethical?

And it would be really incredible.

38 states have not done it, but it would be an incredible example if we chose, the people in power chose to, to be fair in this process >> Nash: and Judge Kennedy, >> Kennedy: I think that there are still five years for mile four and a bit, for New Mexico to discuss this before we get into what goes on with the with the new census in 2030.

And, there's no need.

I mean, New Mexico is not in a position, to need to redistrict its congressional races, period.

Texas can do it.

Maybe they can squeeze, you know, five more people out of it, or five more Democrats into it.

New Mexico's only got three congresspeople.

>> Dow: Can't go any further left.

>> Kennedy: You can't do >> Dow: 46% in New Mexico, voted Republican.

And we have zero federal delegation representatives.

So what could they gerrymander?

>> Kennedy: So the you know, so becomes, okay, if New Mexico is, is really not in play in terms of any federal legislation.

I mean, we just don't matter.

We've got five electoral votes to, you know, so great.

Why are we, you know, why are we saying we can't talk about it from the Democratic side of things because of what Republicans are doing in other states.

And and it's convenient at this point to say, look at what the other side is doing.

And, and we, you know, and we will not, you know, we will not do things for New Mexico that would look, you know, anything other than >> Nash: I█d like to see those reforms push forward.

I certainly do, yeah.

Okay.

I'm sorry.

Thank you so much for your input of thanks for joining us.

>> Dow: Thank you.

>> Lou: We appreciate Judge Kenn Representative Dow, and Senator Figueroa coming in to help us understand the complicated work ahead for New Mexico's redistricting task force.

We end this week's show with Howie Morales, who spent six and a half years as lieutenant governor following a decade in the state Senate.

Before politics, Morales was a teacher and a school administrator in Grant County, where he's from, with students of all ages heading back to the classroom.

Executive producer Jeff Proctor caught up with Morales to talk about a broad range of education related issues, from state programs he's proud of to ongoing challenges to federal funding cut threats from the Trump administration.

Here's Jeff.

>> Jeff: Lieutenant Governor Morales, thank you so much for being here.

And welcome back to New Mexico in Focus.

>> Morales: It's good to be here Thank you for the invitation.

I want to start here.

You began your professional career as a special education teacher down in Grant County.

I'm curious how that sort of shaped your philosophy and your general come from, in particular, as you got into politics.

>> Morales: You know, it was a wonderful opportunity to get an introduction to not only policy, but looking at from a lens of an educator and seeing the impact that have taken place.

I started alternative school, teaching there with students who had lost credit, maybe had fallen behind, maybe they got in trouble with the law, or maybe had a child at a young age, regardless of whatever reason that they were there to do a credit recovery.

It was a good opportunity to really meet the students where they were at and to help build them up.

I learned in that very first year that, where society will say, you messed up your bed, so lay in it.

I learned very young that, society in a loving, compassionate, caring environmental.

Say you messed up.

Your bed.

Here, let me help you make it up.

And that's exactly what we did.

We help students get credit recovery and go on to graduation.

That really helped shape the work that I did.

In being creative and being student centered and really having that approach to having success in all areas.

>> Jeff: We mentioned just a moment ago that you started and special education.

Special education students includes, but it doesn't fully include, students with disabilities.

They are, of course, one of the groups identified as not receiving a proper education from the state.

And the Yazzie Martinez case that also, of course, includes native students, English language learners and low income students.

I am curious.

Let's go back to your time in the Senate.

2018 what was the state getting wrong in terms of providing a proper education for all New Mexico students at that time?

>> Morales: Well, I think that the Martinez Yazzie lawsuit has really given us an open opportunity to truly, make an education system that works for all.

And as a state senator, I was actually part of that, original litigation with Maldef to ensure that we can have our Native American students or students from high poverty areas, students, who needed that extra support, to have that education system that they deserve.

And so working now in this administration, I think that we've seen some tremendous, benefits that have started because it was an eye opener to the state that we needed to do better.

And that's exactly what I see that's taking place as we speak across the state.

>> Jeff: The courts have continued to say that there has been trouble with compliance.

I'm interested from your perspective as a former educator, a former state lawmaker and now lieutenant governor for six and a half years.

What is so darn difficult about compliance with that case?

Part one and part two.

Should New Mexico students have some hope for what happens next?

>> Morales: I think there's tremendous hope, and I think what has taken place, I think one of the difficulties of that is truly understanding what is needed and not to have a standardized approach for the whole state, because what is needed in and in certain areas of our tribal communities in the northwest part of the state is much different than what may be needed in the colonias areas of the southern part of the state.

And what the Department of the Public Education Department has done in partnering with the LANL Foundation.

They're traveling all around the state, having true collaboration into those communities, asking parents, asking professionals, asking community members what is it that we can help to personalize best possible way, an education system that'll work for all?

And I'm very in line to see the work that's being done.

The amount of qualitative and quantitative information that's taken in to have a plan as we move forward to ensure that we have an education system for all.

>> Jeff: We got down to one of those events in Mescalero a week or two ago, and it was enlightening for us to take me behind the scenes a little bit.

And let's talk about the notion of a philosophical shift, the previous administration.

The Susana Martinez gubernatorial administration.

Obviously, it was that leadership that sort of led to Yazzie Martinez.

What philosophically shifted about the way this administration decided to approach public education, in particular for all students?

>> Morales: When we look and see the word accountability, oftentimes that word is thought to be a negative.

I see that as a as an opportunity that it's going to be shared to do the best we can for our students, communities and our staff members.

And so I think that the shift that has taken place is really understanding that it was our philosophy to come in, not to shut schools down, but rather to build them up.

In order to build them up, you have to understand what makes that community, what makes that culture really work.

In doing so, I think has been a shift that we've had that is really focused on how we can prioritize with the school needs.

An example of that is recognizing that we've had a lot of teacher vacancies throughout the years across the country.

We've really addressed that and trying to make sure that we can take care of our professionals.

At one point, they were the lowest paid across the region.

Now they're the highest paid across our region.

But more importantly is that we can recruit educators who are in the classroom that the students can actually see themselves in, that they can see that the languages are being spoken, their customs are cultures, their traditions are being respected.

And I think that's a big factor of making sure that when you work from the inside out, from the ground up, that is the focus to make sure that we are representing every community in the best possible way.

>> Jeff: One more thing before we sort of move on to the national landscape of education funding, the darker part of the discussion, if you will.

Although this part's not particularly joyful either.

I want to talk about, weapons, guns on campus.

Obviously, we all saw the headlines last week.

Five guns were pulled off of West Mesa and Albuquerque High campuses in Albuquerque.

Something that you have done for the last couple of years.

I want to get the name right.

School Safety Summit.

I think the third one will be coming up in November.

Can you describe some of the concrete solutions that have come from those events, and what you expect from the upcoming one in November?

>> Morales: Yeah, the summits have been incredibly successful.

And again, when you look and see the expertise that we have within our own state superintendent at the time of Aztec schools, who unfortunately they went through a school shooting, he really promoted and and was a supporter of bringing together a summit, that was Kirt Carpenter.

And seeing that we had individuals from the district attorney's office, from our local, law enforcement to our FBI coming in together with professionals in the education system.

It's been tremendous.

When we talk about school safety, we're not just talking about school safety from the standpoint of metal detectors or protective windows or locked doors, or from gun safety.

We want to make sure is that we're doing it in all areas mental health, emotional health, ensuring that there's a physical safety that's there.

And that's what this summit allows us to do, to bring in 350 professionals from across the state, to have these discussions to share strategies and to make sure that if there are weapons on campus, how can we best respond to that?

And I know that with the news coming out that there was five weapons that were discovered last week, which is alarming for me as a parent, I have a high schooler and I have a middle schooler.

That scares me, but it also gives me hope that the methods in place have really led itself to allowing that no other incidences with incidents would take place beyond, the recovery of those weapons.

>> Jeff: In other words, better to find the guns and confiscate them than to have something horrible happen >> Morales: and to have the plan in place to know exactly what to do if those incidents occurs.

>> Jeff: Okay, let's move on to the national picture just a bit and talk about the Trump administration's plans for education funding.

In short, they want to cut.

They want to cut title one.

They want to cut head start.

They want to cut the individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

Obviously we don't know what the final bill is going to look like, but I did note that at the end of last month, at the end of July, the Senate Appropriations Committee, 14 Republicans voted to keep the funding for some of those federal education programs.

Not just flat, but with tiny increases.

Who knows what the Senate's going to do?

Who knows what the House is going to do?

I'm curious if you were surprised by that result or sort of what you make of it.

>> Morales: Yeah, I wasn't too surprised because one of the reasons that drove me to go into policy, into politics as an educator, was knowing that when politics oversteps, its boundaries in trying to dictate how education should be carried out, you lose those party lines and educators will stand up for what's right.

And I believe that that was the case when No Child Left Behind was was, implemented.

Educators stood up.

It didn't matter if they were Democrat or Republicans knowing that it was not the proper way to go.

And I think that's what happened here is when you have a budget that's proposed that would slash, funding for important areas of special education, English language learner programs, other programs that are so vital to make sure that the resources are there.

It didn't surprise me that those senators and I'm grateful that they overturned the Trump administration, their recommendation, were able to stand up and say, this doesn't work for my district and therefore was able to change the way that appropriation bill looks.

>> Jeff: Let's, take the dark view of what may happen next and assume, for purposes of this conversation, that Trump may be able to twist some arms with the door closed before the two floor votes on this issue, is New Mexico prepared, and how would New Mexico sort of backfill some of those funding cuts for what you described as incredibly vital programs?

>> Morales: It would be devastating not only in New Mexico, across the country.

It would be devastating because the amount of effort and the amount of work that's been done to really help improve and to put the resources there.

The reality of it is that we are dependent as other states on those federal funds.

And I think that if there's an impact, for example, to afterschool programing when there was $6 billion that were frozen, that would come in to afterschool programs out of school time, which are so key to keep student engagement at the forefront while parents are at work making sure their children are learning and are safe.

That would be disastrous.

Now, I am concerned when you look and see more of the focus that seems to be shifting to higher education and some of the funding threats that are there specifically around diversity, equity and inclusion and seeing those impacts of what may take place.

Just recently, we got word of how New Mexico is.

Other states could really be impacted, for Hispanic serving institutions that promote and to provide an opportunity for students like myself who didn't have a background in and from a family background of going to higher education, to have an understanding those extra supports like the Trio program, like the Gear Up program, other programs that are there to help first, generation students to go to college.

I'm concerned whenever New Mexico has been a champion for diversity, equity and inclusion as higher Hispanic serving institutions, that concerns me for higher ed cuts.

>> Jeff: Can the state make up the difference?

The state can't do it.

>> Morales: Can't make up the difference for too long.

We're doing very well financially.

Thanks to the governor's leadership of diversifying our economy.

We have oil and gas revenue that we've provided surplus >> Jeff: They█re great right as we look ahead >> Morales: They█re not but I was there in the in the legislature when we were, down almost to $0 per barrel.

So I've seen that side of it.

So I still think that we're healthy where we have over 30% reserves.

We have funds that we've tucked away.

Our higher education trust fund is nearing at $1 billion.

We started with our early childhood education trust fund at 320 million.

That now sits at 10 billion.

The state is doing well financially, but that can only be sustained to for so long.

We need to make sure that those federal dollars aren't taken away from us.

>> Jeff: Let's talk about what's next for you.

You have made no secret that you have some interest in, the kind of quasi vacant, president's job at Western New Mexico University in Silver City, where you're from.

Obviously, they've been in the news, and not for some of the best things.

Over the course of the last year or so, allegations of lavish spending that have drawn the eye of the attorney general.

I'm curious why that job is attractive to you.

>> Morales: And Western New Mexico University is my home.

I grew up as a child playing hide and go seek, playing baseball on the campus, going to school, and having the opportunity to get my, my degrees, from Western.

It's so meaningful to the whole southwest part of the state.

When you look and see the pride that Mustang graduates have, it's a wonderful institution.

It's an institution that is vibrant with culture, vibrant with opportunity, vibrant with opportunities for the state of New Mexico that we can contribute to.

Haven't fully decided on what the decision might be.

I know the Regents are working together to put a profile of a president that they're looking for.

If that does work, that's something I am interested in.

But more so is wanting to make sure in that role that I would be a person who can best promote the university and all the pride that those Mustangs, have had throughout these years.

I share that with them.

>> Jeff: Lieutenant Governor Howie Morales, thanks so much for making time for us this week.

>> Morales: Thank you so much for having me here.

>> Lou: Thanks to executive producer Jeff Proctor, Lieutenant Governor Howie Morales, and everyone else who contributed to the show.

Be sure to join us next week as we begin our look at mayoral races for New Mexico and focus.

I'm Lou Divizio Funding for New Mexico in Focus is provided by viewers like you.