REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE ARE HONORED TO HAVE A VERY SPECIAL GUEST TODAY, OUR GUEST TODAY IS ELUID MARTINEZ, ELUID LEVI MARTINEZ, WHO IS A FORMER STATE ENGINEER AND HAS BEEN FOR 50 YEARS A WATER MANAGEMENT PROFESSIONAL.

I AM SO HAPPY TO HAVE YOU HERE, THANK YOU.

>>ELUID: WELL, THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME, IT'S A PLEASURE.

>>LORENE: WELL, NOT ONLY ARE YOU AN ENGINEER AND A SCIENTIST AND ALL OF THESE WATER ISSUES, BUT YOU'RE ALSO A WONDERFUL CARVER OF FOLK ART AND YOU'RE IN MANY MUSEUMS, THE SMITHSONIAN, A WHOLE LOT, ANYWAY, SO THANK YOU.

IT'S A REALLY WONDERFUL BRAIN BALANCE OF SOPHISTICATED ART AND THEN THE SCIENCE YOU HAVE TO DO FOR WATER MANAGEMENT.

>>ELUID: WELL, I LOOK FORWARD TO DISCUSSING THEARENA OF WATER MANAGEMENT AND MY LOVE, MY ART.

>>LORENE: IN THE YEARS THAT YOU'VE BEEN DEALING WITH WATER IN NEW MEXICO, YOU HAVE WITNESSED A SHIFT IN THE STATE AND FEDERAL FOCUS ON HOW THEY WANT TO HANDLE WATER ISSUES.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT THE CHANGES THAT YOU'VE SEEN AND ALSO PLEASE TELL US HOW YOU ENDED UP AS ONE OF OUR BEST WATER PROFESSIONALS EVER.

>>ELUID: WELL, I WAS HIRED BY A LEGENDARY WATER MANAGER IN STATE OF NEW MEXICO, AN INDIVIDUAL BY THE NAME OF STEVEN REYNOLDS, WHO SERVED, I BELIEVE, FOR 35 YEARS AS A NEW MEXICO STATE ENGINEER.

>>LORENE: HE WAS A LEGEND IN THE WEST, NOT JUST HERE.

>>ELUID: HE PASSED ON IN 1990.

I WAS HIRED WHEN I WAS 27 YEARS OLD IN 1971 AND WORKED MY WAY THROUGH THE ORGANIZATION AS A YOUNG ENGINEER, JUNIOR ENGINEER THROUGH SENIOR ENGINEER.

WHEN HE PASSED ON IN 1990, I, ALONG WITH SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS FROM ACROSS THE AMERICAN WEST, APPLIED FOR THE POSITION TO REPLACE HIM.

ULTIMATELY, I WAS SELECTED AND APPOINTED BY INCOMING GOVERNOR BRUCE KING IN 1990 AND I SERVED IN THAT CAPACITY OF STATE ENGINEER FOR FOUR YEARS.

I WAS ASKED TO LEAVE THAT POSITION BY THE INCOMING GOVERNOR JOHNSON.

SO I HAD A LOT OF EXPERIENCE IN WATER RESOURCE ADMINISTRATION MANAGEMENT FROM THE BOTTOM TO THE VERY TOP POSITION IN THE NEW MEXICO STATE ENGINEER'S OFFICE.

AFTER I LEFT THE STATE ENGINEER'S OFFICE, SHORTLY THEREAFTER, I WAS CONTACTED BY THE WHITE HOUSE AND ASKED IF I'D BE INTERESTED IN GOING BACK TO WASHINGTON, DC.

AND WORKING IN THE AREA OF WATER RESOURCES MANAGEMENT AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

PRESIDENT CLINTON NOMINATED ME AS THE NEW COMMISSIONER OF RECLAMATION IN, I BELIEVE IT WAS IN THE SUMMER OF 1995 AND I WAS CONFIRMED BY THE UNITED STATES SENATE AND SERVED THROUGH THE END OF CLINTON'S FIRST TERM AND HIS ENTIRE SECOND TERM.

>>LORENE: MAY I JUST INTERRUPT YOU FOR A MINUTE.

COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION IS, WHAT DO THEY MEAN RECLAMATION?

>>ELUID: THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION IS THE AGENCY THAT OVERSEES ALL THE WATER, FEDERAL WATER PROJECTS ACROSS THE AMERICAN WEST.

THEY BUILT HOOVER DAM, WHICH IS PROBABLY THE MOST VISIBLE, BUT THEY DELIVER WATER TO MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF ACRES OF IRRIGATED LAND ACROSS THE WEST.

BASICALLY I WAS THE CHIEF WATER OFFICIAL FOR WATER MANAGEMENT WEST OF THE MISSISSIPPI.

>>LORENE: WOW.

>>ELUID: THE AGENCY AT THAT TIME HAD ABOUT 5500 EMPLOYEES.

MY OFFICE WAS BACK IN WASHINGTON, DC.

>>LORENE: OUR WHOLE RELATIONSHIP WAS DIFFERENT TO WATER BACK THEN, NOW WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND DESERTIFICATION AND RUNNING OUT OF WATER.

LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE COLORADO RIVER RIGHT NOW, THAT IT'S DOWN TO 34% OF ITS AVERAGE WATER LEVEL AND LAKE MEAD AND LAKE POWELL AT 25% OF THEIR CAPACITY.

WE HAD NOT, THOSE WERE THE GRAVY DAYS WHEN WE HAD PLENTY OF WATER.

WERE YOU WORRIED ABOUT WATER SCARCITY BACK THEN AND HOW CAN WE NAVIGATE THE CHANGES THAT THE ENVIRONMENT AND THE CLIMATE ARE PUTTING ON US?

>>ELUID: WELL, WE GOT TO START FROM THE PREMISE THAT THERE'S NEVER BEEN ENOUGH WATER TO SUPPLY ALL THE DEMAND.

WHAT I'M TRYING TO EXPRESS HERE IS THAT YOU CANNOT SUPPLY ALL THE DEMAND, EVEN IF YOU WENT BACK TO THE SITUATION BEFORE THE DROUGHT, YOU CANNOT PROVIDE ALL THE MUNICIPAL NEEDS, ALL THE IRRIGATION NEEDS, ALL THE INDUSTRIAL NEEDS.

>>LORENE: AND THE RESIDENTIAL.

>>ELUID: THERE HAS TO BE A PRIORITY OF DELIVERY.

OKAY.

ACROSS THE AMERICAN WEST, HISTORICALLY, APPROXIMATELY 90% OF THE WATER THAT'S USED IS USED FOR AGRICULTURAL PURPOSES.

SOMEWHERE AROUND SEVEN TO 8% FOR MUNICIPAL PURPOSES.

SO YOU CAN SEE THAT IF YOU CUT BACK AGRICULTURAL USE EVEN BY 10%, IT'LL DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF WATER AVAILABLE TO MUNICIPALITIES.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WATER SCARCITY, WE NEED TO TAKE IN CONSIDERATION, SCARCITY FROM A STANDPOINT OF TRYING TO PROVIDE WATER TO ALL THE USERS AT THEIR MAXIMUM NEED.

AND IF YOU TRY TO DO THAT, YOU ARE REALLY IN A WATER SITUATION, A SCARCITY SITUATION.

NOW LET'S LOOK AT THE COLORADO RIVER.

AGAIN, IN THE COLORADO RIVER ABOUT 85-90% IS USED FOR AGRICULTURAL PURPOSES.

HOWEVER, IN MOST CASES, AGRICULTURAL PURPOSES HAVE THE FIRST PRIORITY OF USE ON THE RIVER.

>>LORENE: REALLY.

>>ELUID: BECAUSE OF THE EARLY USE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELUID: SO IF YOU WERE TO CUT BACK AGRICULTURAL USES, YOU INCREASE THE USES FROM MUNICIPALITIES AND OTHER USES AND THAT'S WHAT THE ATTEMPT IS BEING MADE TODAY IS TO ASK FARMERS TO FALLOW LANDS IN ORDER TO CONTINUE TO PROVIDE WATER TO THE CITIES.

NOW THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THE DROUGHT IS IMPACTING THE WATER SUPPLY.

WHEN I LEFT THIS COMMISSION OF RECLAMATION, I WAS FORTUNATE THAT LAKE MEAD WAS FULL, THEY WERE LEASING WATER OUT OF THE OUTLET TUBES, SO I DIDN'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT WATER SHORTAGE SITUATION THAT NEW COMMISSIONERS HAVE TO.

BUT KEEP IN MIND THAT WATER SHORTAGE IS FROM A PERSPECTIVE OF TRYING TO SUPPLY ALL THE DEMANDS, THE SOLUTION TO, IN MY OPINION, TO THE WATER SHORTAGE SITUATION IS TO TRY TO SHIFT WATER DEMANDS FROM AGRICULTURE AND TO LOOK FOR NEW WATER SOURCES.

AND NEW MEXICO IS FORTUNATE IN THE FACT THAT IT HAS A VAST AMOUNT OF SALINE GROUNDWATER, A LARGE AMOUNT OF SALINE GROUND WATER, TO THE EXTENT THAT NEW MEXICO COULD TURN TO DESALINATION OF THAT SALINE WATER WOULD PROVIDE A TREMENDOUS NEW SOURCE OF WATER SUPPLY AKIN TO USERS ALONG THE COAST THAT ARE TRYING TO TURN TO SALINE DESALINATION FOR WATER SUPPLY.

SO THE ISSUE AS I SEE IT, IS TO MAKE THE BEST USE OF THE SUPPLY THAT YOU HAVE AND TO LOOK FOR NEW USES, NEW SUPPLIES.

>>LORENE: SO IS THERE SUPPORT IN THE STATE FOR DESALINATION PLANTS?

>>ELUID: WELL, I ADDRESSED THAT, I LOOKED AT THAT ISSUE WHEN I WAS STATE ENGINEER ALMOST 25 YEARS AGO.

THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THAT MUCH CHANGE FROM WHAT IT WAS 25 YEARS AGO, BUT I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE MORE THOUGHT GIVEN TO THAT.

IT'S EXPENSIVE, BUT AT SOME POINT THE EXPENSE JUSTIFIES THE NEW SUPPLY.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT SAUDI ARABIA AND THE COUNTRIES IN THE ARAB STATES, THEY PRACTICALLY EXISTDUE TO DESALINATION OF SEA WATER, BUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS CONVERTING OIL TO WATER, IN OTHER WORDS THEY'RE SELLING OIL.

THEY USE THAT MONEY TO CONVERT SALINE WATER INTO FRESH WATER.

BUT IT IS POSSIBLE, THE TECHNOLOGY IS ADVANCING, AND I SEE THE DAY WHEN THE COST OF DESALINATION WILL BE ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE TO DO IT.

AND NEW MEXICO WILL BE IN A POSITION, I THINK, TO USE THAT BRINE WATER THAT IT HAS IN ITS GROUND WATER AQUIFERS.

>>LORENE: WHY DO WE HAVE SO MUCH BRINE WATER IN NEW MEXICO?

>>ELUID: WELL, I'M NOT A GEOLOGIST, BUT AT ONE TIME.

>>LORENE: SUBTERRANEAN.

>>ELUID: WE WERE UNDER WE WERE A SEA AT ONE TIME.

>>LORENE: THAT'S TRUE.

>>ELUID: BUT THERE IS A LARGE QUANTITY OF SALINE GROUND WATER.

>>LORENE: WELL, IT'S JUST INTRIGUING TO ME.

AND IT BECOMES MORE AND MORE OF AN ISSUE NOW WITH CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE 20 YEAR DROUGHT THAT WE'VE BEEN EXPERIENCING.

>>ELUID: THAT'S TRUE.

I THINK I'VE READ THAT SOME PREDICTION IS THAT IT HASN'T BEEN THIS DRY IN 1200 YEARS, BUT THERE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE SOME NOVEL SOLUTIONS.

EITHER THE SOLUTION IS EITHER INCREASING THE SUPPLY OR MAKING A BETTER USE OF THE EXISTING SUPPLY, WHICH WILL RESULT IN PRIORITIES TO WHO GETS WATER AND WHO DOESN'T.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

AND SOME OF THAT IS LEGAL BECAUSE THERE'S A FIGHT BETWEEN NEW MEXICO AND TEXAS ABOUT WATER.

>>ELUID: WELL, I WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE ACTUAL LITIGATION, ALTHOUGH I WORKED WITH THE STATE ENGINEER, REYNOLDS, BUT I INHERITED THE PROBLEM.

AND THE PROBLEM WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE GOVERNOR AND THE LEGISLATURE WAS TO ACQUIRE WATER RIGHTS IN THE PECOS RIVER SYSTEM, TAKE THEM OUT OF PRODUCTION, LEASE WATER RIGHTS IN THE SHORT TERM AND THAT PROGRAM ULTIMATELY WAS PUT IN PLACE AND NEW MEXICO HAS NOT UNDERDELIVERED WATER TO TEXAS ON THE PECOS RIVER SINCE 1995 WHEN I HAD TO DEAL WITH THAT QUESTION.

THE QUESTION OF THE RIO GRANDE IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

THE QUESTION OF THE RIO GRANDE BASICALLY SIMPLY STATED IS TEXAS IS CONCERNED THAT GROUNDWATER PUMPING WITHIN NEW MEXICO, DOWNSTREAM OF ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR IS AFFECTING THE FLOW IN THE RIVER THAT TEXAS CLAIMS IT IS ENTITLED TO.

AND ULTIMATELY THE COURTS WILL DETERMINE WHETHER THAT IS A CORRECT POSITION AND IF IT IS AND THE COURTS FIND THAT NEW MEXICO HAS BEEN IMPACTING THE SURFACE FLOWS, THEN NEW MEXICO IS GOING TO HAVE TO SERIOUSLY LOOK AT SOME ISSUES.

>>LORENE: WELL, SOME OF THIS LEGAL STUFF HAS KIND OF GOTTEN INTO THE POPULAR LANGUAGE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ISSUE OF USE IT OR LOSE IT.

>>ELUID: WELL, THE CONCEPT OF USE IT OR LOSE IT GOES BACK TO THE EARLY DAYS.

BASICALLY, A WATER USER DOESN'T OWN THE WATER RIGHT, THE WATER RIGHT IN NEW MEXICO BELONGS TO THE STATE, BELONGS TO THE PUBLIC.

WHAT THE WATER USER ACQUIRES IS A RIGHT TO USE THAT WATER EITHER THROUGH A LICENSE FROM STATE ENGINEER OR INITIATION OF THAT WATER RIGHT BEFORE THE STATE ENGINEER HAD JURISDICTION.

SO THE CONCEPT IS THAT GIVEN THAT THERE'S A LIMITED WATER SUPPLY, IF YOU DON'T USE THE WATER, YOU LOSE IT BECAUSE IT COULD BE BENEFICIALLY USED BY SOMEBODY ELSE.

PRIOR TO THE MID-1960S, YOU COULD LOSE THE WATER BY NONUSE, AFTER THE MID-1960S, THE LEGISLATURES CHANGED THE LAW TO REQUIRE THE STATE ENGINEER TO GIVE NOTICE TO THE WATER USER THAT THE WATER USER HAD A CERTAIN TIME PERIOD IN WHICH IT PUT THE WATER BACK TO USE.

SO, FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY WATER USERS IN NEW MEXICO LOSING THEIR WATER RIGHTS BY NONUSE.

THEY MIGHT LOSE THEIR WATER RIGHT BECAUSE THEY'VE ABANDONED THE RIGHT, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT CONCEPT.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ELUID MARTINEZ, FORMER STATE ENGINEER AND I'VE JUST WANTED TO TALK WITH YOU SO MUCH SINCE WATER IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES FACING OUR STATE, THE USE IT OR LOSE IT IS ONE THING, THERE'S ANOTHER WAY THAT THE WATER ISSUE HAS ENTERED OUR FOLK VOCABULARY.

THE LINE THAT WHISKEYS FOR DRINKING, BUT WATER'S FOR FIGHTING.

I DON'T KNOW HOW OLD THAT IS.

>>ELUID: THAT GOES PRETTY OLD.

MR. REYNOLDS USED TO HAVE ANOTHER SAYING, THAT SAID IT'S BETTER TO HAVE A WATER RIGHT AT THE HEAD OF THE DITCH AND THEN A GUN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE DITCH.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELUID: THAT HAS CERTAIN IMPLICATIONS TOO.

BUT AT ANY RATE SOME OF THE WATER ISSUES THAT I DEALT WITH 25 YEARS AGO ARE STILL AROUND.

THE ISSUE OF QUANTIFYING NEW MEXICO'S WATER RESOURCES, THE ISSUES OF HOW YOU USE THAT WATER IN THE CONTEXT OF ITS ENVIRONMENTAL USE AND ITS CONSERVATION AND OF COURSE THE DRAW TEST HAS ADDED ANOTHER LAYER.

>>LORENE: WELL, I GO WITH YOUR CREATING MORE SOURCES OF WATER, BUT WE'LL SEE.

>>ELUID: THERE'S BEEN TALK ABOUT BRINGING WATER FROM PIPELINE FROM THE MISSISSIPPI.

>>LORENE: IT'S TRUE, THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT TEXAS TO DO.

HOUSTON'S ALWAYS FLOODED AND EL PASO IS ALWAYS DRY, JUST PIPE IT IN STATE.

>>ELUID: WELL, THE BUREAU RECLAMATION IN THE 60S WAS CHARGED IN LOOKING AT BRINGING WATER ACROSS FROM THE NORTH, FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON, THE COLUMBIA RIVER, ACROSS THROUGH THE MOUNTAIN RANGES INTO THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST, AND THEY WERE ALSO CHARGED WITH LOOKING AT BRINGING WATER FROM THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER INTO THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST.

THOSE PLANS WERE DEVELOPED AND THEY'RE SOMEPLACE IN THE ARCHIVES.

BUT WHAT CHANGED WAS THAT DURING THAT PERIOD, THE ENVIRONMENTAL MOVEMENT TOOK HOLD AND THE VIETNAM WAR SHIFTED THE MONETARY RESOURCES TO THE WAR INSTEAD OF TO THESE ISSUES.

AND ANOTHER THING THAT HAPPENED ALSO IS THAT THE AMERICAN SOUTHWEST, THE SENATORS AND REPRESENTATIVES OF THE WESTERN STATES, HELD HIGH POSITIONS IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE.

THERE WERE CHAIR OF THE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEES AND THE BUDGET COMMITTEES AND SO FORTH.

>>LORENE: ST. PETE, PETE DOMENICI.

>>ELUID: THEY BROUGHT ALL THAT MONEY TO THE WEST ALONG WITH THOSE PROJECTS, BUT THERE IS ON THE BOOKS, SOMEPLACE, A PROJECT TO BRING THAT WOULD'VE BROUGHT WATER FROM MISSISSIPPI INTO TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO.

THE PUMPS TO BRING THE WATER WERE GOING TO BE PROVIDED ENERGY THROUGH TWO OR THREE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, NOW BECAUSE IT'LL TAKE A LOT OF ENERGY TO MOVE IT.

BUT TODAY, I DON'T THINK THAT PROJECT WOULD BE FEASIBLE FROM AN ENVIRONMENTAL STANDPOINT.

>>LORENE: THAT'S A DOUBLE SIDED SWORD, THAT ONE.

YEAH, YEAH.

>>ELUID: SO AGAIN, WHAT I'M TRYING TO RAISE IS THESE ISSUES WERE ISSUES THAT WERE DISCUSSED 30 YEARS AGO.

>>LORENE: WHAT KIND OF LEADERSHIP DO WE HAVE NOW?

I KNOW WE HAD WONDERFUL REPRESENTATIVES IN THE STATE, REPRESENTATIVE STELL AND GX MCSHERRY, WE'VE HAD A LOT AND I'M FORGETTING SOMEBODY, VERY IMPORTANT I'M SURE, BUT WE'VE HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WERE FAMILIAR WITH THE IMPORTANCE OF WATER AND THE PRACTICALITY OF HOW MUCH WE NEEDED IT, "AGUA ES VIDA," THAT WHOLE FOLKLORE THING.

BUT NOW WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL MOVEMENT, IS IT BETTER FOR WATER NOW?

>>ELUID: WELL, LET ME TRY AND ANSWER FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE.

LET'S LOOK BACK AT STEVE REYNOLDS TENURE.

STEVE REYNOLDS SERVED FOR 35 YEARS STATE ENGINEER AND WAS REALLY THE VOICE FOR WATER AND WATER DEVELOPMENT IN THE STATE.

THE LEGISLATURE GAVE GREAT DEFERENCE TO STEVE REYNOLDS.

THE LEGISLATURE, I THOUGHT WAS OF THE OPINION AND SO WERE GOVERNORS, THAT THAT POSITION SHOULD BE A TENURED LONG-TERM POSITION.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>ELUID: WHAT HAPPENED WHEN I BECAME STATE ENGINEER, POLITICS TOOK PLACE AND SINCE THEN, I BELIEVE THERE'S BEEN SIX OR SEVEN STATE ENGINEERS.

STATE ENGINEERS CHANGE WITH EACH ADMINISTRATION, THEY CHANGE EVEN WITHIN THE SAME ADMINISTRATION.

IT TOOK ME 25 YEARS AT THE KNEE OF A WATER LEGEND TO LEARN THE BUSINESS.

I FEEL FOR THE NEW INDIVIDUALS THAT COME IN AND HAVE TO DEAL WITH THESE ISSUES, AND THEY'RE REPLACED IN TWO OR FOUR YEARS.

SO, I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE ONE ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE REVISITED.

SHOULD THOSE WATER OFFICIALS HAVE TENURE LONGER THAN TWO OR FOUR YEARS?

>>LORENE: YES, ABSOLUTELY.

>>ELUID: THAT'S A KEY POINT I THINK THAT NEEDS TO BE MADE.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE, A LOT OF THIS YOU ONLY LEARN BY EXPERIENCE AND DEALING WITH THE CHALLENGES AS THEY COME UP, YOU CAN'T SERVE TWO YEARS AND THE NEXT GUY GETS A CHALLENGE THAT YOU ALREADY DEALT WITH AND HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

I'M WITH YOU, I THINK IT SHOULD BE AND THERE SHOULD BE A POSITION OF, YOU KNOW, EMERITUS STATE ENGINEER WHERE PEOPLE CAN GO TO PROFESSIONALS SUCH AS YOURSELF WHO REALLY KNOW WATER HERE AND GET SOME ADVICE.

LIKE YOU SAY, YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL WATER MANAGEMENT PROFESSIONAL, AND I'M HOPING THAT PEOPLE COME TO YOU AS A CONSULTANT FOR PROBLEMS THAT WE'RE HAVING.

>>ELUID: WELL, THAT'S A TOUCHY SUBJECT.

AND AS A FORMER OFFICIAL, WATER OFFICIAL, I WOULD HATE TO INTERJECT MYSELF AND MY VIEWS, BUT DURING THAT 50 YEARS, I SERVED AS STATE ENGINEER AND CHIEF WATER OFFICIAL FOR THE STATE AND CHIEF WATER OFFICIAL FOR THE UNITED STATES AND I HAVE 50 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>ELUID: AND NOT NECESSARILY THE TECHNICAL ISSUES, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE POLITICAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE ISSUES.

I DON'T OFFER MYSELF, BUT I HAVEN'T BEEN ASKED EITHER, IT'S AN INTERESTING SITUATION.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

WELL, I ASKED YOU HERE BECAUSE MY RESPECT FOR YOUR LONG TERM KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WATER ISSUES IN NEW MEXICO.

WE'RE GOING TO SHIFT OUR FOCUS, UNLESS YOU'VE GOT ONE LAST WORD, WHAT PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT WATER IN NEW MEXICO.

>>ELUID: WELL, I MEAN, IT IS A KEY NOT ONLY IN NEW MEXICO, ACROSS AMERICAN WEST, I FEEL FOR THE WATER OFFICIALS THAT ARE DEALING WITH THESE ISSUES TODAY, BUT THERE IS EXPERIENCE OUT THERE THAT CAN HELP.

>>LORENE: WELL NOW WE'RE GOING TO SHIFT FOCUS BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU, YOU ARE A VERY FAMOUS FOLK ARTIST ON YOUR MOM'S SIDE, YOUR FAMILY WAS SENTAROS ON YOUR GRANDFATHER AND UNCLE'S SIDE, THEY WERE FAMOUS WOOD CARVERS.

YOU'RE FROM CORDOVA, NEW MEXICO, REALLY A HOT SPRING OF OUR BEST CARVERS.

YOUR WORK IS IN THE SMITHSONIAN MUSEUM OF AMERICAN HISTORY, THE SMITHSONIAN AMERICAN ART MUSEUM, THE NEW YORK AMERICAN FOLK ART MUSEUM, YOU ARE THE REAL DEAL.

YOU DO PAINTINGS, DRAWINGS, WATERCOLORS, LITHOGRAPHS, AND THESE WONDERFUL CARVINGS.

BY THE WAY, I WANT TO LET PEOPLE KNOW WHERE THEY CAN SEE YOUR THINGS.

YOUR WEBSITE, WE'LL PUT IT HERE IS WWW.ELUISELEVIMARTINEZART.COM WE'LL LET PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO GO TO SEE MORE OF YOUR STUFF.

TALK TO US ABOUT THESE CRITTERS.

>>ELUID: WELL, LEAVING ASIDE MY ENGINEERING CAREER, I WAS BORN IN A LITTLE VILLAGE IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO CORDOVA, ON THE HIGH ROAD BETWEEN CHIMAYO AND TRUCHAS.

MY MOTHER MOVED HERE WITH ME WHEN I WAS ONE YEAR OLD AND MY SISTERS, SO I ACTUALLY GREW UP IN SANTA FE, BUT I WAS BORN IN CORDOVA.

ON MY MOTHER'S SIDE THE LOPEZ FAMILY IS KNOWN FOR THEIR RICH HISTORY AS SANTEROS, CARVERS OF RELIGIOUS IMAGERY.

MY FAMILY HAS SEVEN TO EIGHT GENERATIONS, I'M THE FOURTH GENERATION OF WOOD CARVERS.

>>LORENE: AND BY THE WAY, I WANTED TO MENTION YOU HAVE A BOOK, IT'S CALLED, OH DEAR, WHAT IS... >>ELUID: WHAT IS A NEW MEXICO SANTO.

>>LORENE: SO WHEN PEOPLE WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT SANTOS AND SANTEROS, THEY SHOULD LOOK FOR YOUR BOOK.

>>ELUID: SO, IN 1969, AFTER I HAD GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE, I BECAME INTERESTED IN THE FAMILY HISTORY OF WOOD CARVING AND THROUGH MY RESEARCH FOUND THAT MY GRANDFATHER WAS VERY FAMOUS IN THE EARLY 1900S.

HIS WORK WAS INCLUDED IN THE MUSEUM OF MODERN ART.

TWO NEW MEXICANS, GEORGIA O'KEEFE AND JOSE DOLORES LOPEZ IN THE INITIAL COLLECTIONS OF THE MUSEUM OF MODERN ART.

SO I BECAME INTERESTED IN CARVING, I WENT TO GO VISIT MY UNCLE, GEORGE LOPEZ, ANOTHER FAMOUS WOODCARVER, PASSED ON IN 1994, AND THIS WOULD'VE BEEN 1969, 1970 AND I WENT TO VISIT HIM IN CORDOVA AND I SAID, UNCLE GEORGE, COULD YOU TEACH ME HOW TO CARVE AND HE LOOKED AT ME, HE SAYS, I DON'T HAVE TO TEACH YOU ANYTHING, IT'S IN YOUR BLOOD.

SO HE SAID SOMEONE WILL GIVE YOU A KNIFE, GIVE YOU A PIECE OF WOOD, DON'T BOTHER ME, IN SO MANY WORDS.

I STARTED CARVING AND SHORTLY THEREAFTER MY PIECES STARTED GETTING COLLECTED, THEY WOUND UP IN MANY MUSEUMS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, INCLUDING TWO SMITHSONIAN MUSEUMS.

BUT BY THE LATE 1970S, I BEGAN TO GET INVOLVED IN LOCAL, I GOT ELECTED TO LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD AND I WAS INVOLVED IN THE CITY PLANNING COMMISSION, SO FORTH, SO MY CARVING SORT OF TOOK THE BACK SEAT.

I STARTED CARVING AGAIN IN THE LATE EIGHTIES, BUT THEN WHEN I BECAME STATE ENGINEER MY ART TOOK A BACKSEAT.

WHEN I BECAME COMMISSIONER OF RECLAMATION, POLITICAL APPOINTEES CANNOT HAVE OUTSIDE INCOME THAT MIGHT INFLUENCE THEIR DECISION, SO ALL MY ART WAS TAKEN OUT OF GALLERIES AND I STOPPED MAKING ART.

I CAME BACK TO NEW MEXICO, OPENED MY OWN CONSULTING BUSINESS IN THE EARLY NINETIES.

I CLOSED MY BUSINESS FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, SO I'M BACK TO WHAT I LOVE IS MY ART AND I'M CREATING IT, WHAT YOU SEE IS, THIS IS MY MOST RECENT PIECE.

HE'S A SILVERBACK GORILLA.

>>LORENE: HE'S GORGEOUS.

>>ELUID: WHAT A NEW MEXICO WOODCARVER IS DOING WITH A SILVERBACK GORILLA.

THESE ARE MY FUN ART.

THIS IS A LITTLE PIG.

>>LORENE: WHAT A WONDERFUL CRITTER.

>>ELUID: I MAKE ALL KINDS OF LITTLE ANIMALS.

AND MY SERIOUS ART, THESE ARE CORDOVA STYLE WOODCARVINGS.

THIS IS SAN JOSE WITH A CHRIST CHILD.

>>LORENE: IT'S MADE OF CEDAR?

>>ELUID: ASPEN.

>>LORENE: ASPEN.

>>ELUID: ASPEN WOOD.

AND I ALSO DO OIL PAINTINGS.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, I KNOW THAT.

PERDERNAL?

>>ELUID: THIS IS GEORGIA O'KEEFE'S MOUNTAIN.

SO TODAY I SPEND A LOT OF TIME ENJOYING WHAT I LIKE TO DO, RELAXED, I'M NOT SHOWING IN ANY GALLERIES.

I DON'T INTEND TO, THAT'S BEHIND ME, BUT I CARVE JUST TO ENJOY IT AND PAINT.

>>LORENE: SO HOW MANY, DO YOU DO MOSTLY ANIMALS, DO YOU DO SANTOS OR JUST WHAT YOU FEEL LIKE AT THAT TIME BECAUSE YOU LOVE IT.

>>ELUID: I DID SANTOS BECAUSE AT ONE POINT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, I WAS THINKING OFJURYING BACK INTO THE ANNUAL TRADITIONAL SPANISH MARKET AFTER BEING ABSENT FOR 30 YEARS.

I WAS JURIED IN AND I MADE SOME SANTOS AND THE PANDEMIC CHANGED THAT.

SO I HAVE MADE SOME SANTOS BUT I ENJOY MAKING THE ANIMALS BECAUSE THEY ARE INTERESTING TO MAKE.

>>LORENE: THEY HAVE SO MUCH PERSONALITY.

THE EXPRESSION ON THE GORILLA IS SO FIERCE AND THIS PIG IS JUST ADORABLE, JUST ADORABLE.

>>ELUID: BUT THAT'S SORT OF SUMMARIZES MY ART.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE FACT THAT I'M AN ARTIST AND NOT ONLY MY CARVINGS, BUT SOME OF MY LITHOGRAPHS AND CHARCOAL PAINTINGS ARE ALSO IN MAJOR MUSEUMS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.

>>LORENE: YES WE HAD ONE OF YOURS WITH THE REST, THE BLUE CROSS, IT'S JUST SO BEAUTIFUL, WAS IN OUR LIVING ROOM FOR YEARS, YEARS AND YEARS.

SO NOT MANY PEOPLE HAVE THIS SUCH HIGHLY DEVELOPED BOTH SIDES OF THEIR BRAIN, THE ARTISTIC AND THE SCIENTIFIC, SO YOU ARE A RARE BEAST AND I'M SO HAPPY YOU CAME HERE TO BE WITH US TODAY.

>>ELUID: I HOPE I'M REMEMBERED FOR BOTH OF MY CAREERS.

>>LORENE: WELL 50 YEARS IN WATER, YOU REALLY MADE A LOT OF DIFFERENCE AND I'M GRATEFUL.

>>ELUID: I'M 78 YEARS OLD, SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE I'M 78, BUT I STILL THINK I HAVE A FEW MILES LEFT IN ME.

>>LORENE: I KNOW YOU DO, I KNOW YOU DO.

AND SO WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER INTERVIEW IN THE FUTURE, BUT I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR GUEST TODAY IS ELUDE MARTINEZ.

THIS HAS BEEN WONDERFUL.

FORMER STATE ENGINEER, WATER MANAGEMENT PROFESSIONAL AND FOLK ART CARVER.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>ELUID: WELL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME HERE.

>>LORENE: AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM