Laura: WHEN OUR HOMES AND OUR FORESTS ARE THREATENED WE ALL  APPRECIATE THE FEDERAL WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS WHO SHOW UP FOR US  FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

THEY FACE BIGGER CHALLENGES  EVERY YEAR, ESPECIALLY AS CLIMATE CHANGE LENGTHENS FIRE  SEASON AND SPAWNS BIGGER AND MORE SEVERE FIRES.

BUT THEY ALSO FACE STRUGGLES THE REST OF US NEVER SEE.

LONG ASSIGNMENTS AWAY FROM FAMILIES AND SUPPORT NETWORKS,  LOW PAY AND MENTAL HEALTH CHALLENGES.

I SAT DOWN RECENTLY WITH CURRENT AND FORMER FIREFIGHTERS FROM  ACROSS THE WEST TO TALK ABOUT THESE PROBLEMS AND POTENTIAL  SOLUTIONS.

MARCUS, JONATHAN, KELLY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME  TODAY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

WE HAVE ALL BEEN WATCHING THE BIG FIRES IN CALIFORNIA.

WE HAVE ALL GOT SMOKY SKIES.

I AM CURIOUS CAN WE START WITH YOU MARCUS.

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT LIFE IS LIKE FOR A WILDLAND  FIREFIGHTER.

Cornwell: SURE.

I WOULD SAY, FIRST OF ALL, IT IS A VERY SORT OF SATISFYING  FULFILLING CAREER.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT DO IT LIKE  TO BE OUTSIDE, LIKE TO HELP THEIR NEIGHBORS.

IT IS A PUBLIC SERVICE THAT I THINK A LOT OF US STILL ARE  SATISFIED TO DO AT THE END OF THE DAY.

BUT THE REALITIES THAT WE ARE STARTING TO FACE NOW WITH  POTENTIAL CLIMATE CHANGE, I WOULD SAY, INCREASED FIRE  SEASONS, MORE COMPLEX, LONGER DURATION, WE ARE REALLY STARTING  TO SEE, I WOULD SAY, FIREFIGHTERS IN A CRISIS MODE.

THIS CRISIS MODE IS DUE TO ATTRITION.

WE HAVE LESS FIREFIGHTERS ON THE GROUND AT FEDERAL LEVELS BECAUSE  THE PAY AND BENEFITS ARE NOT ADEQUATE.

FOLKS ARE ASKED TO BASICALLY HAVE THESE YEAR ROUND FIRE  SEASONS WHERE WE ARE COMMITTED TO GO HELP ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SO, I WOULD SAY WE ARE REALLY KIND OF APPROACHING A TRAIN  WRECK IN A SERIOUS ISSUE WHERE FIREFIGHTERS ARE TIRED.

THEY ARE CHALLENGED MENTALLY AND  PHYSICALLY AND IT IS REALLY STARTING TO ENTER A CRISIS MODE,  I WOULD SAY.

Laura: SO RECENTLY I SAW AN  AD FOR WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS THAT SAID THE JOB PAYS $15 AN  HOUR.

I UNDERSTAND THAT IS A LITTLE  BIT OF A BUMP, A BIDEN ERA BUMP, BUT, ONE, IS THAT ENOUGH TO LIVE  ON AND, TWO, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THESE ARE CONSIDERED SEASONAL  JOBS.

Cornwell: THAT $15 AN HOUR IS  ROUGHLY FOR ENTRY LEVEL JOBS WHICH AS YOU SAID JUST RECENTLY  BUMPED UP.

BEFORE THAT IT WAS ANYWHERE FROM  $13 TO $14 DEPENDING WHERE YOU ARE AT IN THE COUNTRY.

THESE ARE ALL TEMPORARY 1039 POSITIONS IS WHAT THEY ARE  CONSIDERED.

WHICH HAVE ZERO BENEFITS EXCEPT  FOR MEDICAL CARE AND MEDICAL CARE THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR IT  GETS SUBSIDIZED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DURING THEIR  EMPLOYMENT BUT AS SOON AS WINTER, THEY ARE LAID OFF AFTER  SIX MONTHS, THEY HAVE TO PAY THE FULL PRICE.

NO RETIREMENT, NO OPPORTUNITY TO CONTRIBUTE TO ANY KIND OF 401 K.  BASICALLY ZERO BENEFITS.

AND THIS IS A BULK OF OUR  FEDERAL FIREFIGHTERS, THESE TEMPORARY EMPLOYEES.

THEY MAKE UP 3/4 OF OUR HOT SHOTS AND HELITAC AND SMOKE  JUMPERS.

AS SOON AS THE SEASON IS OVER,  THEY BASICALLY HAVE NO ABILITY TO ACCESS MENTAL HEALTHCARE  BENEFITS, TO REACH OUT FOR ANY KIND OF LONG-TERM PHYSICAL  ISSUES THEY ARE HAVING.

YOU KNOW, ONCE THEY ARE LAID OFF  AND IF THEIR FIRE FAMILY IS NOT THERE TO SUPPORT THEM, THEY HAVE  NO BENEFITS.

IT IS A TOUGH POSITION WE PUT  THESE TEMPORARY EMPLOYEES IN AND MANY OF THEM LIVE IN THEIR CARS  BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD THE HOUSING AROUND WHERE THEY WORK.

SO, BASES, YOU KNOW, IN THE MOUNTAINS, THESE MOUNTAIN TOWNS  THAT HAVE EXPENSIVE PLACES TO LIVE, THAT DON'T HAVE CREW  QUARTERS, BASICALLY THESE KIDS ARE LIVING IN THEIR CARS TO GO  AND FIGHT WILDLAND FIRE ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHICH IS -- IT IS  HARD TO SAY AND HARD TO THINK ABOUT, BUT I HAVE BEEN THERE.

I DID 11 YEARS IN SEASONAL AND I LOOK BACK AND JUST KIND OF LIKE,  UNBELIEVABLE.

Laura: YEAH.

KELLY MARTIN YOU WORKED AS A WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER FOR 35  YEARS FOR THE FOREST SERVICE AND BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE  LONG-TERM EMERGENCE IN EMERGENCY SITUATIONS WHICH IS DIFFERENT  FROM WHAT WE SEE SORT OF MUNICIPAL FIREFIGHTERS OR EVEN  POLICE OFFICERS.

WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS ARE  DEALING WITH SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT.

Martin: ABSOLUTELY, LAURA.

JUST FOR CLARIFICATION I SPENT  HALF MY CAREER WITH THE FOREST SERVICE AND HALF WITH THE  NATIONAL PARK SERVICE.

AND I DIDN'T WORK FOR THE BLM  BUT WORKED WITH THEM QUITE A BIT THROUGHOUT MY CAREER.

THE EMERSION WE ARE SEEING NOW IS WAY -- COMPLETELY DIFFERENT  THAN WHEN I STARTED 35 YEARS AGO.

I MIGHT HAVE GAINED MAYBE 400 HOURS OF OVERTIME DURING A  SUMMER SEASON AND NOW WE ARE SEEING PEOPLE REGULARLY WORKING  1000, 1500, AND I THINK I EVEN HEARD THERE IS PEOPLE OUT THERE  ALMOST WORKING LIKE 2,000 HOURS OF OVERTIME A YEAR.

SO THIS CONSTANT EMERSION MODE IS REALLY HAVING A TREMENDOUS  IMPACT ON PEOPLES MENTAL HEALTH AND WELLBEING TO SAY NOTHING OF  THEIR PHYSICAL WELLBEING AS WELL, WHEN EXPOSED TO TREMENDOUS  AMOUNTS OF SMOKE, LOTS OF RISKS AND DANGERS WITH TRAVELING ON  REALLY ROUGH, RUGGED BACK COUNTRY ROADS, VEHICLE ACCIDENTS  ARE ALWAYS AN ISSUE.

FALLING SNAGS, BURN-OVERS, SO  THAT THE IDEA THAT INDIVIDUALS ARE NOW IN THIS ALMOST 24/7 YEAR  AFTER YEAR, WE HAVE REALLY STARTED SEEING IT ACCELERATED IN  2020 AND NOW 2021, IT IS WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT IS HOW PEOPLE ARE  LIVING THEIR LIVES.

WHEREAS IN A MUNICIPAL FIRE  DEPARTMENT, A FIRE STATION MIGHT GET A CALL, THEY ARE FOUR  MINUTES EN ROUTE TO EMERGENCY AND THEY HAVE THE EMERGENCY  STABILIZED WITHIN ABOUT AN HOUR, HOUR-AND-A-HALF.

THAT IS SIMPLY JUST NOT THE CASE FOR WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS.

WE ARE IN IT 24/7, WEEK AFTER WEEK, MONTH AFTER MONTH AND NOW  WE ARE TALKING YEAR AFTER YEAR.

Megan: EARLIER THIS YEAR,  FIREFIGHTER TIM HART WAS KILLED DUE TO INJURIES HE SUSTAINED ON  A FIRE HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

AND AFTER HIS DEATH, I REMEMBER  SEEING A GO FUND ME CAMPAIGN TO HELP HIS FAMILY DEALING WITH  EXPENSES DUE TO HIS HOSPITALIZATION.

AND I JUST REMEMBER THINKING, HE WAS A FEDERAL EMPLOYEE, WORKING  ON A FEDERAL FIRE.

WHAT KINDS OF -- HOW ARE  FIREFIGHTERS TAKEN CARE OF WHEN THEY SUSTAIN INJURIES OR  UNFORTUNATE ACCIDENTS LIKE THIS?

Cornwell: THAT IS THE REALITY  OF THE SITUATION.

THERE IS AN ORGANIZATION STARTED  ROUGHLY 20 YEARS AGO CALLED THE WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS FOUNDATION  AND REALLY THAT ORGANIZATION WAS THE CATALYST AND IT IS ALL  CHARITY DONATIONS FROM BASICALLY WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS SUPPORTING  EACH OTHER.

SO I WOULD SAY RECENTLY LAND  MANAGEMENT AGENCIES HAVE STARTED TO DO A BETTER JOB.

I WOULD GIVE CREDIT TO THAT BUT I WOULD SAY STARTING TO.

AND WE ARE SEEING WHERE THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO COVER, YOU KNOW --  THESE GO FUND ME AND THE WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER FOUNDATION  COVER TIM'S FAMILY TO BE ABLE TO TRAVEL DOWN, BE ABLE TO COVER A  MORTGAGE AND BILLS WHEN HE IS IN A TOUGH POSITION IN A HOSPITAL,  ANY OF OUR FIREFIGHTERS, HELP THE FAMILY MAKE IT THROUGH.

BECAUSE THESE FAMILIES THAT WE HAVE BASICALLY DEPEND ON US  BEING FIREFIGHTERS AND US GOING AND WORKING AND BEING AWAY FROM  HOME FOR SIX MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR, SO, AS SOON AS THAT MONEY  IS GONE, THERE IS NO BASE.

THERE IS NO HELP FOR THE FAMILY.

SO LONG-TERM SORT OF MEDICAL CARE, I KNOW, THE WILDLAND  FIREFIGHTER FOUNDATION HAS BOUGHT WHEELCHAIRS, HELPED  REHAB, AND THE REALITY OF WHY WE NEED THIS IS OWCP PROGRAM,  OFFICE OF WORKMEN'S COMP IS BROKEN.

WE HAVE FIREFIGHTERS STRUGGLING THAT GET INJURED ON THE JOB,  STRUGGLING YEAR AFTER YEAR TO BASICALLY JUST SURVIVE THESE  CATASTROPHIC INCIDENTS THEY HAVE WITH MOUNTAINS OF PAPERWORK,  VERY LITTLE HELP FROM THE  FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND BASICALLY IT IS EASIER TO GET OUTSIDE  DONATIONS TO MAKE IT THROUGH.

Laura: WOW.

JONATHAN, YOU WERE A WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER FOR OVER A DECADE.

I AM WONDERING IF YOU COULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME OF THE  PRIVATE STRUGGLES THAT WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS ARE GOING THROUGH  THAT, YOU KNOW, WE IN THE PUBLIC JUST HAVE NO IDEA THESE THINGS  ARE HAPPENING.

Golden: YEAH, THANKS AGAIN  FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE HERE.

SOME OF THE PRIVATE STRUGGLES  THAT I WENT THROUGH AND I KNOW MY FRIENDS HAVE GONE THROUGH ARE  JUST THE ISOLATION THAT YOU FEEL AND THE SEPARATION YOU HAVE FROM  YOUR FRIENDS, FROM FAMILIES BACK HOME.

THE EVENTS THAT YOU MISS OUT ON, BIRTHDAYS, WEDDINGS,  GRADUATIONS.

I EVEN KNOW OF HUSBANDS AND  PARTNERS WHERE I WAS ON FIRE WITH WHILE THEIR WIFE DELIVERED  THEIR CHILDREN.

YOU MISS OUT ON THESE  SIGNIFICANT MOMENTS AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TIME TO LAY  DOWN AT NIGHT AND TRY TO GET SOME SLEEP, YOU KNOW, YOU THINK  ABOUT THESE THINGS.

IT REALLY BEGINS TO WEIGH ON  YOU.

WHAT AM I MISSING AND WHAT AM I  DOING HERE.

WHEN I STARTED TO HAVE A FAMILY  WITH MY WIFE IT JUST BECAME NO LONGER SUSTAINABLE FOR US OR  REALISTIC FOR US TO POTENTIALLY MOVE OUR WHOLE FAMILY ACROSS THE  COUNTRY IN ORDER FOR ME TO CHASE A PROMOTIONAL OPPORTUNITY, TO  EFFECTIVELY ACTUALLY HAVE MORE RESPONSIBILITY AND BE GONE A LOT  MORE.

WHEN THAT GOES ON IT BECOMES A  REAL STRUGGLE AND SOMETIMES WE ARE ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY BURY OR  SUPPRESS THOSE MEMORIES, BUT IT COMES OUT IN THE WINTERTIME.

PEOPLE TURN TO ALCOHOL OR DRUGS AND WE HAVE LOST PARTNERS AND  FRIENDS TO SUICIDE FROM IT ALL.

SO, IT IS A REAL PROBLEM WITHIN  THE COMMUNITY.

FRANKLY, IT ISN'T TALKED ABOUT  ENOUGH AND/OR ADDRESSED AS BEST AS IT COULD BE.

Laura: I THINK THE PUBLIC, WE VERY MUCH HAVE A PERCEPTION OF  WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS WHEN OUR COMMUNITIES ARE AT RISK, PEOPLE  GO OUT THERE WITH SIGNS AND WANT TO BAKE COOKIES AND DROP OFF  WATER AND THEY ARE SO GRATEFUL WHEN YOU ALL ARRIVE.

BUT IT REALLY FEELS TO ME THAT THERE IS THIS DISCONNECT BETWEEN  WHAT WE THE PUBLIC THINK YOU ALL ARE GOING THROUGH AND WHAT IS  ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

I AM CURIOUS HOW ARE YOU  SUPPORTED BY THESE FEDERAL AGENCIES THAT WE ALL PAY TAXES  TO AND ARE IMAGINING THAT YOU'RE BEING SUPPORTED.

IS THERE SUPPORT FOR THINGS LIKE DEPRESSION OR PTSD OR ANXIETY OR  HELPING ADDRESS THIS WORK/LIFE BALANCE THAT SEEMS TO BE A  PROBLEM?

Cornwell: I WOULD SAY THOSE  ARE CATCH WORDS THAT DIFFERENT AGENCY LEADERSHIP HAVE THROWN  OUT THERE, WORK LIFE BALANCE BUT REALITY, LAURA, IS THAT THESE  PROGRAMS ARE ANEMIC AT BEST.

I WOULD BE REMISS TO SAY THERE  IS NO HELP.

WE DO HAVE HELP NETWORKS BUT I  MYSELF HAVE TRIED TO LOOK INTO THEM, LIKE, FOR ME AS A FIRST  RESPONDER, TO SEEK HELP ON A PARTICULAR KIND OF ISSUE, LIKE  THERE IS NO COUNSELORS IN MY AREA THAT SPECIALIZE IN THAT  THAT ARE WITHIN THAT PROGRAM.

THAT IS THE THING A LOT OF  PEOPLE ARE FACED WITH.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND  MENTAL HEALTH HELP ON THERE.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO   GO THROUGH THE PROGRAM.

YOU ONLY GET FIVE TO SEVEN VISITS AND THEN IT IS ON YOU.

A WEAK SUPPORT NETWORK AND THEN LIKE I WAS SAYING WITH THE  EMPLOYEES, AS SOON AS THEY ARE LAID OFF THEY BASICALLY HAVE NO  ACCESS TO THIS.

WHEN YOU'RE IN THE TRANSITION  TIME LIKE JOHNNY IS TALKING ABOUT END OF THE SEASON, YOU GO  AWAY FROM YOUR FIRE FAMILY, NOW YOU TURN TO ALCOHOL AND DRUGS TO  HIT THOSE VOIDS.

YOU ARE VERY ANGRY WITH THE  WORLD, I WOULD SAY.

IT IS REALLY KIND OF WHEN I SEE  THESE WAR MOVIES, PEOPLE COMING BACK FROM VIETNAM OR WAR, AND  TRYING TO LIKE REINTEGRATE INTO SOCIETY, THAT IS REALLY WHAT  PEOPLE GO THROUGH ON A YEARLY CYCLICAL BASIS OF BEING TOTALLY  EMERSED IN A WAR TYPE SETTING AWAY FROM ALL YOUR SUPPORT  NETWORK AND THEN YOU COME BACK TO TRY TO INTEGRATE.

AND SO I WOULD SAY IT IS VERY POOR AND I THINK IT IS A KNOWN  ISSUE.

FOLKS ARE WORKING ON IT BUT AT A  VERY SLOW RATE TO REALLY MAKE A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE, I WOULD SAY.

WE NEED MORE MONEY.

WE NEED BETTER PROGRAMS.

WE NEED MORE SUPPORT.

Laura: SPEAKING OF CHANGE.

I WOULD LIKE TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

START WITH YOU, KELLY.

FIRES, 35 YEARS AGO, COMPARED WITH THE  FIRES WE ARE SEEING NOW, HOW HAS CLIMATE CHANGE AFFECTED THE FIRE  SEASON AND WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS WHO HAVE TO DEAL WITH FIRE  SEASONS?

Martin: I THINK ABOUT THE  ENVIRONMENT THAT WE ARE WORKING IN NOW AND HOW DIFFERENT THAT  WAS WHEN I FIRST STARTED.

SO, CLIMATE CHANGE IS CERTAINLY A  CONTRIBUTING FACTOR ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT SIGNIFICANTLY  HIGHER TEMPERATURES, LONGER FIRE SEASONS, WE CAN ACTUALLY MEASURE  THAT.

WE KNOW THAT IS ACTUALLY  OCCURRING.

THE OTHER THING THAT IS  OCCURRING IS THIS UNNATURAL FUEL BUILDUP.

IF YOU CAN IMAGINE FROM ONE MOMENT, WESTERN U.S. WAS VERY  VOID OF PEOPLE ABOUT 150 YEARS AGO.

QUOTE UNQUOTE, THE GOOD FIRE OR THE FRIENDLY FIRE WAS ALLOWED TO  PLAY ITS NATURAL ROLE ON THE LANDSCAPE FOR MILLENNIA AND HERE  WE COME AND WE OCCUPY THE WEST AT TREMENDOUS NUMBERS.

CALIFORNIA USED TO HAVE 1.5 MILLION PEOPLE IN 1900 AND  NOW THEY ARE UP TO 40 MILLION.

WE ARE SEEING THIS PLAY OUT  WHERE NOT ONLY IS CLIMATE CHANGE ADDING TO THESE LARGE MEGA  FIRES, BUT WE ARE ALSO SEEING UNNATURAL FUEL BUILDUP BECAUSE  OF THE SUPPRESSION OF WILDFIRES ON THE LANDSCAPE.

WHICH IS INCREASING THE FUEL LOADING AND VEGETATION AND ALSO  INCREASING INSECT DISEASE AND DROUGHT SUSCEPTIBILITY TO TREES  ON THE LANDSCAPE AND ADDING TO THE POPULATION EXPLOSION.

IT IS REALLY PUTTING FIREFIGHTERS IN A REALLY  UNTENABLE SITUATION ESPECIALLY THESE LAST 24 MONTHS.

THIS REALLY SHOULD PORTEND TO ALL OF US WHAT THE YEARS ARE  GOING TO LOOK LIKE IN THE YEARS TO COME.

WE CANNOT KEEP OPERATING UNDER THE SAME ANTIQUATED SYSTEM THAT  WE DEVELOPED 50 YEARS AGO.

Laura: THANK YOU SO MUCH, ALL  THREE OF YOU, FOR THIS CONVERSATION.

I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME  AND YOUR ENERGY ON THIS TOPIC.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING  US, LAURA.

IT IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NEW MEXICO AND IMPORTANT TO THE UNITED  STATES AND I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND INTEREST.