>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, THE HOMESTRETCH AT THE ROUNDHOUSE.

A FINAL CHECK IN WITH DEMOCRATS AND A REPORT CARD FROM REPUBLICANS AS THE 2025 SESSION COMES TO A CLOSE.

PLUS -- >> Sheff: HAVING IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT IN OUR COMMUNITIES POSES A THREAT TO OUR FAMILIES.

HAVING DETENTION CENTERS IN OUR COMMUNITIES POSES A THREAT TO OUR IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES.

>> Lou: CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEYS SPEAK OUT ABOUT THE ARREST AND DISAPPEARANCE OF FOUR DOZEN PEOPLE IN OUR STATE, AS THEY PUSH FOR A BILL TO END AGREEMENTS WITH FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DiVIZIO.

THIS YEAR'S 60-DAY LEGISLATIVE SESSION COMES TO A CLOSE SATURDAY IN SANTA FE.

AS WE TAPE THIS ON THURSDAY, THE STATE BUDGET, AN EXTENSIVE TAX PACKAGE, AND A VARIETY OF OTHER MEASURES SIT IN LIMBO.

WE'RE GOING TO VERY FROM ONE OF THE LEGISLATIVE LEADERS MAKING THOSE FINANCIAL DECISIONS FOR OUR STATE IN ABOUT 40 MINUTES.

BUT WE BEGIN WITH AN ASSESSMENT OF THE LEGISLATURE'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS THIS YEAR FROM LEADERS IN EACH MAJOR PARTY.

POLITICS CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND SPOKE WITH DEMOCRAT AND HOUSE MAJORITY FLOOR LEADER REENA SZCZEPANSKI AND REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE REBECCA DOW.

HERE'S GWYNETH.

>> Gwyneth: REPRESENTATIVE, THE HOUSE REPUBLICANS CAME INTO THIS SESSION WITH A LIST OF PRIORITIES THAT INCLUDED PUBLIC SAFETY, CRIME AND JUVENILE CRIME, THE BORDER, EDUCATION, HEALTH CARE, CYFD, AND AFFORDABILITY.

HOW WOULD YOU RATE YOUR PERFORMANCE SO FAR?

>> Dow: HOW WOULD I RATE THE REPUBLICAN PERFORMANCE?

AS BEING MEMBERS OF THE MINORITY, I THINK WE'VE DONE REALLY WELL IN MESSAGING AND LETTING THE EVERYDAY NEW MEXICAN KNOW THE DEMOCRATS WE'RE SOFT ON CRIME.

THEY DID NOT ADDRESS AFFORDABILITY.

I'M VERY HOPEFUL ABOUT REFORMS AT CYFD.

AND AS FAR AS SAFETY AND THE BORDER AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, I THINK WE REALLY FELL SHORT.

BUT REPUBLICANS BROUGHT FORTH REAL SOLUTIONS.

UNFORTUNATELY, WITH THE NUMBERS THAT ARE HERE, MANY OF OUR BILLS NEVER GOT A HEARING AND THOSE THAT DID DIED IN THE FIRST COMMITTEE.

BUT I THINK THE CITIZENS OF NEW MEXICO HAVE A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE THAT DEMOCRATS ARE SOFT ON CRIME, REFUSE TO ADDRESS RULE REFORMS AROUND HEALTH CARE AND EVERYTHING THEY DID IS PRETTY MUCH RISING THE COST OF GOODS FOR NEW MEXICANS.

I'D SAY THEIR PLATFORM WAS AN AFFORDABLE ACT.

>> Gwyneth: WERE THERE AREAS OF AGREEMENT?

THINGS THAT YOU WORKED ON IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION AND GOT STUFF DONE?

>> Dow: I THINK THERE'S SOME AREAS THAT SHOULD BE BIPARTISAN.

THEY SHOULD REMAIN BIPARTISAN NO MATTER WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE THOSE ARE AROUND CONSERVATION EFFORTS.

PROTECTING THE HEALTH, OUR SOIL, THE FORESTS, PREVENTING CATASTROPHIC FIRES AND FLOODS.

CYFD -- I'M KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED.

NOTHING'S TO THE GOVERNOR'S DESK YET AND NOTHING'S BEEN SIGNED.

WE'VE BEEN HERE BEFORE.

BUT I'M VERY PROUD OF HOUSE AND SENATE MEMBERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CHAMBER WHO CAME TOGETHER TO REALLY PROTECT OUR MOST VULNERABLE CHILDREN.

THERE ARE THREE ESSENTIAL THINGS THAT MUST HAPPEN AT CYFD.

WE MUST CHANGE THE CONFIDENTIALITY CLAUSE.

CYFD CANNOT BE AN ISLAND UNTO THEMSELVES.

THEY HAVE TO HAVE OUTSIDE ACCOUNTABILITY AND APPEAL PROCESS.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, WE HAVE TO REFORM THE PROGRAM AROUND BABIES EXPOSED TO SUBSTANCE, TO REQUIRE MANDATORY PARTICIPATION FOR PARENTS IN ORDER FOR REUNIFICATION.

AND THAT IS -- IT'S ESSENTIAL.

AND TO SEE THESE BILLS DYING IS ABSOLUTELY HEARTBREAKING.

THIS IS LIFE OR DEATH.

THERE ARE SOLUTIONS.

IF IT'S PREDICTABLE, IT'S PREVENTIBLE.

WE KNOW THIS, YET THE BILLS CONTINUE TO DIE THAT MAKE MEANINGFUL REFORMS AND WILL SAVE CHILDREN FROM A LIFETIME OF HARM, AND PARENTS FROM BEING PROSECUTED ON TAXPAYER DIMES FOR INVOLUNTARY HOMICIDE.

AND I THINK THE OTHER AREAS WHERE WE FOUND SOME COMMONALITY ARE LITTLE TINY MOVES ON CRIME.

NOTHING THAT I THINK IS GOING TO REALLY MAKE OUR NEIGHBORHOOD SAFER.

BUT WE DID FIND SOME COMMONALITY AROUND THOSE THINGS.

>> Gwyneth: WHAT DO YOU ALREADY KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO BRING BACK AGAIN NEXT SESSION AND THE SESSION AFTER THAT?

>> Dow: REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO BRING BACK EVIDENCE-BASED BILLS THAT WILL LOWER THE COST OF HEALTH CARE, MAKE YOUR COMMUNITY SAFER, AND MAKE LIFE MORE AFFORDABLE.

AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO WORK ON THINGS THAT BENEFIT ALL NEW MEXICANS.

NO SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS HERE.

WE TAKE CARE OF EVERYONE AND TRY TO MAKE IT EASIER TO START A SMALL BUSINESS AND TO GROW AND MAKE YOUR BUSINESS BIGGER AND TO RAISE YOUR FAMILY THE WAY YOU SEE FIT.

>> Gwyneth: SO, ONE OF THE HEALTH CARE PRIORITIES WAS MEDICAL MALPRACTICE, RIGHT?

AND THIS SEEMS TO NOT BE HAPPENING.

WERE THE DEMOCRATS THE MAIN OPPONENTS OR WAS IT THE TRIAL LAWYERS WHO DON'T WANT CAPS ON IT?

>> Dow: WELL, IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE IF THE DEMOCRATS REPRESENT THEIR DISTRICT, THEY WOULD BE VOTING FOR MEDICAL MALPRACTICE REFORM.

SO, EVEN IF IT'S WITH THE PRESSURE FROM THE TRIAL LAWYERS, THEY GAVE IN.

REPUBLICANS DO NOT GIVE IN.

WE VOTE OUR DISTRICT.

WE DON'T HAVE CAUCUS VOTES.

WE VOTE WHAT'S RIGHT FOR OUR DISTRICT.

AND USUALLY, THAT BENEFITS ALL NEW MEXICANS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN LOCAL DECISION-MAKING AUTHORITY.

WE BELIEVE IN PERSONAL FREEDOM AND WE BELIEVE IN PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

>> Gwyneth: THE SENATE IS LOOKING AT THE BUDGET RIGHT NOW.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEND IS BACK TO YOU GUYS.

ARE THERE THINGS THAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO AGREE WITH?

>> Dow: I'M ABSOLUTELY HEARTBROKEN THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS DECIDED TO PUT IN ANOTHER $10 MILLION INTO THE CAPITAL OUTLAY FUND TO FUND YET ANOTHER ABORTION CLINIC, THIS TIME IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO.

I THINK NEW MEXICANS ACROSS THE STATE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLING, THEY ABSOLUTELY AGREE, EVEN WHEN THEY'RE PRO-CHOICE, THAT NEW MEXICANS SHOULD NOT BE FOOTING THE BILL FOR ELECTIVE ABORTIONS OF HEALTHY BABIES.

I'M HEARTBROKEN AT THE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT ARE BEING SPENT IN THIS STATE.

WE'RE ABORTING MORE CHILDREN THAN WE'RE EUTHANIZING DOMESTIC PETS.

>> Gwyneth: WHAT ELSE IN THE BUDGET ARE YOU NOT HAPPY ABOUT?

>> Dow: WE HAVE NOT SEEN THE SENATE BUDGET, BUT WE'VE SEEN PIECES OF THE SENATE BUDGET.

AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS ALL-TIME, RECORD-HIGH OF SURPLUS FOR THE STATE, YEAR OVER YEAR.

SINCE MLG HAS BEEN IN OFFICE, WE'VE SPENT OVER $780 BILLION, YET CRIME IS ON THE RISE, EDUCATION IS AT THE BOTTOM, HEALTH CARE COSTS ARE RISING, DOCTORS ARE LEAVING THE STATE.

THE POLICIES OF THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT WORKING.

THIS BUDGET IS SO MISMANAGED THAT THEY'RE NOW PASSING INCREASES OF TAXES TO FUND ALL THE NEW PROJECTS.

REPUBLICANS WANT TO SHORE UP BASIC SERVICES AND FULLY FUND ESSENTIAL SERVICES BEFORE WE EXPAND MORE PROGRAMS.

>> Gwyneth: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

>> Dow: OKAY.

>> Gwyneth: REPRESENTATIVE SZCZEPANSKI, YOU CAME IN JANUARY AND DEMOCRATS CAME WITH A LIST OF PRIORITIES FOCUSING ON PUBLIC SAFETY, CHILD WELLBEING, AFFORDABILITY, AMONG OTHER THINGS.

WHAT ARE YOU MOST PROUD OF HAVING ACCOMPLISHED SO FAR?

>> Szczepanski: I AM SO EXCITED THAT WE HAVE FINALLY SENT THE OFFICE OF THE CHILD ADVOCATE UP TO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE FOR SIGNATURE.

THAT BILL IS THE RESULT OF OVER A DECADE OF WORK.

A LOT OF, PARTICULARLY, WOMEN IN THE HOUSE WORKED ON THAT LEGISLATION.

AND IT'S SORT OF BEEN CARRIED FORWARD YEAR AFTER YEAR, IMPROVED EVERY YEAR.

I THINK THIS YEAR WE REALLY GOT A GREAT BALANCE OF OVERSIGHT, SUPPORT FOR CYFD INTO THAT LEGISLATION, ALLOWING FOLKS WHO MAYBE FEEL THEY HAVEN'T HAD A FAIR SHAKE WITH CYFD, A PLACE TO GO TO MAKE SURE THOSE KIDS ARE SAFE.

THAT'S ALL CONTAINED IN THIS OFFICE OF THE CHILD ADVOCATE.

I'M THRILLED THAT BILL IS FINALLY OVER THE FINISH LINE.

>> Gwyneth: WE JUST TALKED TO HOUSE MINORITY REP. REBECCA DOW.

SHE SAID IT FELL SHORT BECAUSE SHE REALLY WANTED TO SEE IN THERE A REQUIREMENT THAT THE PARENTS OF DRUG-ADDICTED BABIES ARE REQUIRED TO GET TREATMENT.

>> Szczepanski: WELL, WE'RE STILL WORKING ON THAT LEGISLATION.

THAT'S ACTUALLY IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, SEPARATE PIECE OF LEGISLATION.

AND WHAT SHE'S TAKING ABOUT IS THE CARA PROGRAM.

AND THE HOUSE HAS PUT FORWARD A VERY STRONG PROPOSAL ON CARA.

IT'S OVER IN THE SENATE RIGHT NOW.

AND THAT DEALS WITH PARENTS WHO HAVE ADDICTION PROBLEMS WHO HAVE A NEWBORN.

I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THAT LEGISLATION.

IT'S EVIDENCE-BASED.

IT'S TOTALLY BASED IN THE RESEARCH THAT WE KNOW WORKS WITH PARENTS WHO HAVE ADDICTION ISSUES.

SO, WE ARE GOING TO GET THAT OVER THE FINISH LINE, HOPEFULLY IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS.

>> Gwyneth: WE TALKED A FEW MINUTES AGO WITH REPRESENTATIVE NICOLE CHAVEZ WHO TALKED TO US AND SAID SHE'S DISAPPOINTED SHE HAD NOT SEEN MORE ON JUVENILE JUSTICE.

AND WE TALKED ABOUT GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM'S STATEMENT, STRONGLY-WORDED STATEMENT THIS WEEK, ABOUT MURDER IN ALBUQUERQUE THAT INVOLVED THREE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO WERE 11, 13, AND 15 YEARS OLD.

IS THERE MORE WORK TO DO BEFORE SATURDAY ON JUVENILE JUSTICE?

>> Szczepanski: YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A GREAT JUVENILE JUSTICE PACKAGE THAT WAS SENT OVER TO THE SENATE THAT I'M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT.

HERE'S THE THING, AND THAT WAS A TERRIBLE INCIDENT THAT WE ALL HAVE BEEN WATCHING OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, BUT AS A MOM OF TWO TEENAGE BOYS, MY QUESTION IS WHERE HAVE WE FAILED THOSE BOYS ALONG THE WAY?

WHERE ARE THEIR PARENTS?

WHERE IS THE SCHOOL?

WHERE IS CYFD?

WE KNOW FROM THE RESEARCH THAT WE ALREADY INCARCERATE MORE CHILDREN THAN OTHER STATES.

WE ALREADY HOLD, PRE-TRIAL, MORE CHILDREN THAN OTHER STATES.

SO, THAT'S NOT THE MISSING LINK.

WHAT IS THE MISSING LINK IS WHAT HAPPENS BEFORE THOSE KIDS ARE EVEN IN A PLACE WHERE THEY'RE COMMITTING AN ACT LIKE THAT OR EVEN A MUCH MORE MINOR OFFENSE.

YOU KNOW, WHERE ARE THOSE SUPPORT SYSTEMS FOR THOSE KIDS?

>> Gwyneth: WE ALSO TALKED WITH REPRESENTATIVE LENTE EARLIER ABOUT THE BUDGET AND HE SAID HE KNOWS IT'S GOING TO COME BACK WITH SOME CHANGES THAT THE HOUSE DOES NOT PLAN TO CONCUR, BUT WILL GO TO CONFERENCE COMMITTEE AND WORK OUT THE DETAILS.

REPRESENTATIVE DOW WAS REALLY UPSET ABOUT $10 MILLION THAT SHE SAID THE GOVERNOR REQUESTED FOR ANOTHER ABORTION CLINIC IN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO.

IS THAT SOMETHING YOU'D CONSIDER TAKING OUT?

>> Szczepanski: YOU KNOW WHAT, WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE SERVICES IN THIS STATE ANYWHERE.

NOT TO MENTION THE INCREASED NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT ARE SEEKING SERVICES FROM OUTSIDE THE STATE.

BUT EVEN BEFORE WE HAD CHALLENGES WITH THE PROVISION OF REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE AROUND THE COUNTRY, WE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE SERVICES IN THIS STATE FOR NEW MEXICANS.

SO, TO ME, ANYTHING WE CAN DO THAT'S GOING TO BOOST THE ABILITY OF NEW MEXICANS TO GET ACCESS TO ALL OF THOSE SERVICES, THE FULL SPECTRUM OF REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE SERVICES, THAT'S A WIN.

BECAUSE THAT MEANS THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING SUPPORT DURING THEIR PREGNANCIES.

IT MEANS THEY'RE GETTING PRENATAL CARE.

IT MEANS THEY'RE GETTING ACCESS TO TESTING.

ALL KINDS OF COUNSELING SERVICES, ET CETERA.

TO ME, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

AND IF THE GOVERNOR SEES AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPAND THAT, THAT'S SOMETHING I SUPPORT.

>> Gwyneth: SO, WHAT'S ON YOUR TOP TO DO LIST FOR THESE LAST FEW DAYS?

WHAT DO YOU DETERMINE TO MAKE SURE HAPPENS BEFORE YOU LEAVE?

>> Szczepanski: YEAH, I HAVE A FEW BILLS ON MY RADAR.

SO, WE'RE FINALLY CLOSE TO THE FINISH LINE ON LOCAL SOLAR ACCESS FUND, WHICH WOULD ALLOW LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO PUT SOLAR ON COMMUNITY BUILDINGS WITH STORAGE TO ALLOW FOR RESILIENCY IN TIMES OF EMERGENCY.

WE JUST HAD HIGH WIND, AND IF THE POWER WERE TO GO OUT, IT WOULD BE GREAT TO HAVE A CENTER IN EVERY COMMUNITY THAT WOULD STILL HAVE POWER.

I HAVE MERGERS AND ACQUISITIONS FOR LARGE HOSPITAL TRANSACTIONS LEGISLATION.

THAT'S REALLY ADDRESSING THE CORPORATIZATION OF HEALTH CARE AND THE INFLUENCE OF LARGE CORPORATIONS IN NEW MEXICAN HEALTH CARE.

AND THAT'S TO PROTECT PATIENTS AND MEDICAL PROVIDERS.

SO, REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THAT.

THAT'S OVER IN THE SENATE AS WELL.

SO, FINGERS CROSSED, THAT WE'LL GET THOSE TWO BILLS DONE AND UP ON THEIR WAY TO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE.

>> Gwyneth: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

>> Szczepanski: THANK YOU SO MUCH, GWYNETH.

>> Lou: STATE REPUBLICANS SAW SMALL GAINS IN THE 2024 ELECTION, BUT THEY REMAIN THE MINORITY IN BOTH CHAMBERS OF THE LEGISLATURE.

YOU JUST HEARD REPRESENTATIVE DOW EXPLAIN HOW FRUSTRATED MEMBERS OF HER PARTY HAVE FELT WHILE TRYING TO GET SOME OF THEIR PRIORITIES PASSED.

AMONG THEM IS A JUVENILE DETENTION MEASURE THAT WOULD HAVE MADE IT EASIER TO LOCK UP TEENAGERS FOR VIOLENT CRIMES.

HOUSE BILL 134 WOULD HAVE LORD THE AGE OF DEFENDANTS WHO CAN BE CHARGED AND TREATED AS ADULTS FROM 15 TO 14.

DESPITE SUPPORT FROM BERNALILLO COUNTY'S DEMOCRATIC DISTRICT ATTORNEY, SAM BREGMAN, DEMOCRATS IN THE LEGISLATURE SAID IT WAS A NO-GO.

GWYNETH SPOKE WITH THE REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE WHO HAS A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE ON JUVENILE CRIME.

>> Gwyneth: REPRESENTATIVE CHAVEZ, JUST THIS WEEK, WE SAW THE ARREST OF A 13-YEAR-OLD IN ALBUQUERQUE FOR THE MURDER OF A CYCLIST WITH A VEHICLE.

THERE WAS ALSO AN 11-YEAR-OLD AND A 15-YEAR-OLD INVOLVED.

AND GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM PUT OUT A REALLY STRONG STATEMENT ON THIS, SAYING SHE WAS HORRIFIED BY THE VIDEO.

SHE CALLED IT BRAZEN AND HEARTLESS.

AND SHE SAID THAT IT WAS AN APPALLING AND HEARTBREAKING REMINDER OF THE SERIOUS JUVENILE CRIME CRISIS THAT WE FACE IN NEW MEXICO, AND OUR LACK OF TOOLS TO PROPERLY ADDRESS IT.

NOW, JUVENILE CRIME IS SOMETHING YOU'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS SESSION.

WHY THIS IS A PASSION PROJECT OF YOURS?

>> Chavez: WELL, ALMOST TEN YEARS AGO NOW, MY SON WAS KILLED BY VIOLENT JUVENILE OFFENDERS.

ON THE SAME DAY HE WAS KILLED, STEVE GERECKE WAS KILLED IN HIS OWN DRIVEWAY BY SIX -- A MOB OF TEENSTERS, REALLY.

SO, TWO VIOLENT CRIMES, ALMOST TEN YEARS AGO, AND WE WERE SCREAMING THEN THAT WE HAD AN ISSUE WITH JUVENILE CRIME.

TEN YEARS LATER, WE COME AND IT STILL HASN'T BEEN ADDRESSED.

WE HAVE CREATED KEY LEGISLATION THAT WOULD HAVE, ESPECIALLY THIS YEAR WITH HOUSE BILL 134, HELD THE MOST VIOLENT OF JUVENILES ACCOUNTABLE FOR MANSLAUGHTER, FOR HOMICIDE BY VEHICLE, AND THE BILL DIED IN ITS FIRST COMMITTEE AFTER BEGGING FOR IT TO BE HEARD IN ITS FIRST COMMITTEE.

WE CONTINUE TO GET NOTHING BUT EXCUSES, SAYING WE CAN'T RUSH THE PROCESS, THAT IT CAN'T BE ADDRESSED SO SOON.

BUT THIS IS MY TENTH YEAR CRYING OUT SAYING THAT JUVENILE CRIME HAS HIT AN ALL-TIME CRISIS.

AND, TRULY THIS YEAR WE HAVE.

IN BERNALILLO COUNTY ALONE, THERE'S OVER 22 JUVENILES BEHIND BARS FACING HOMICIDE CHARGES RIGHT NOW.

SO, IT IS A SLAP IN THE FACE TO VICTIMS.

AND I THINK THAT THE REST OF THIS STATE WAS WAITING FOR SOMETHING TO BE ADDRESSED THIS YEAR, AND NOTHING'S BEEN ADDRESSED.

WE HAVE THREE DAYS LEFT AND IT'S TOO LATE.

>> Allen: SOLITARY CONFINEMENT HAS AN INTERESTING HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY, RIGHT?

I MEAN, THE UNITED STATES INVENTED IT.

AS A REFORM BACK IN THE 1820s IN PENNSYLVANIA IN THIS FAMOUS STATE PENITENTIARY.

CHARLES DICKENS ACTUALLY VISITED THAT PRISON AND WROTE A SCATHING ESSAY ON WHAT HAPPENS TO THE HUMAN MIND.

WHEN YOU PLACE PEOPLE IN ISOLATION, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WITH EXISTING MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, YOU LOSE YOUR MIND.

>> Lou: THAT INTERVIEW WITH STEVEN ROBERT ALLEN OF THE NEW MEXICO PRISONS AND JAIL PROJECT IS COMING UP IN LESS THAN TEN MINUTES.

ANOTHER KEY ISSUE IN FRONT OF LAWMAKERS AT THE ROUNDHOUSE HAS JUMPED INTO STATE HEADLINES, FEDERAL IMMIGRATION DETENTION.

LAST WEEK, THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT ANNOUNCED AGENTS ARRESTED 48 PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO THEY SAY WERE IN THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY.

THOSE 48 PEOPLE WENT UNACCOUNTED FOR DAYS.

ICE NOW SAYS SOME HAVE BEEN DEPORTED, AND SOME REMAIN IN FEDERAL CUSTODY, BUT ATTORNEYS SAY MANY OF THEIR STATUSES ARE STILL UNCLEAR.

A COALITION OF IMMIGRANT ADVOCATES AND CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYERS GATHERED AT THE CAPITAL EARLIER THIS WEEK TO FORMALLY ADDRESS THE SITUATION.

THEY SAY THEIR IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITH LOCAL LEADERS WHO TELL THEM NOT TO WORRY, THAT FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AGENTS ARE ONLY GOING AFTER CRIMINALS.

MARCELA DIAZ IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE WORKER AND IMMIGRANT ADVOCACY NONPROFIT SOMOS UN PUEBLO UNIDO.

SHE SAYS THAT'S NOT WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING.

>> Diaz: THEY'RE PUTTING EVERYONE INTO THE SAME CATEGORY, WHETHER IT'S A MISDEMEANOR OR HAVING COME INTO THE COUNTRY WITHOUT INSPECTION AND THEN A BROAD RANGE OF SERIOUS CRIMES.

WE KNOW THAT'S NOT THE MAJORITY OF FOLKS BEING TAKEN IN COLLATERAL ARRESTS OR WITH REMOVAL ORDERS.

>> Lou: NOW, LONG BEFORE THE ARREST IN AND DISAPPEARANCE OF THOSE 48 PEOPLE IN OUR STATE, GROUPS LIKE SOMOS UN PUEBLO UNIDO AND THE NEW MEXICO IMMIGRANT LAW CENTER HAVE PUSHED FOR AN END TO ALL STATE CONTRACTS WITH ICE.

THIS SESSION, THERE'S A CHANCE THAT HAPPENS.

HOUSE BILL 9 WOULD BAR STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS FROM ENTERING INTO AGREEMENTS USED TO DETAIN PEOPLE FOR FEDERAL CIVIL IMMIGRATION VIOLATIONS.

STATE REPRESENTATIVES APPROVED THE BILL AND SENT IT TO THE SENATE EARLIER THIS MONTH.

AS WE TAPE THIS THURSDAY, THAT'S WHERE IT REMAINS.

THIS WEEK, POLITICS CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND CAUGHT UP WITH THE SENIOR IMMIGRANT RIGHT ATTORNEY AT THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF NEW MEXICO, AND A MAN WHO HAS BEEN DETAINED BY ICE AGENTS.

THEY ARGUE ENDING STATE CONTRACTS WITH FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES IS A CONSTITUTIONAL NECESSITY, AND THAT IT WOULD ALLOW NEW MEXICO TO PRIORITIZE THE DIGNITY AND VALUE OF IMMIGRANTS IN OUR STATE.

>> Gwyneth: REBECCA, EARLIER THIS MONTH, FEDERAL IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS ARRESTS 48 PEOPLE IN ALBUQUERQUE, SANTA FE, AND ROSWELL.

ACCORDING TO ICE, 20 OF THEM HAD BEEN ARRESTED OR CONVICTED OF SERIOUS CRIMES.

MURDER, RAPE, ASSAULT, AND SOME OTHER LOWER CRIMES TOO.

THE STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY SAYS THAT NOT COOPERATING WITH ICE PUTS DANGEROUS CRIMINALS AHEAD OF NEW MEXICO'S CITIZENS.

IS THAT FAIR?

>> Sheff: WE'RE DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THESE 48 INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE SNATCHED OUT OF OUR COMMUNITIES DURING THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH.

WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM THEM.

OUR COMMUNITY PARTNERS HAVEN'T HEARD FROM THEM OR THEIR FAMILIES.

THESE FOLKS HAVE EFFECTIVELY DISAPPEARED.

WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF THEY'RE STILL IN THE UNITED STATES.

OUR OFFICE SUBMITTED A COMPLAINT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, DEMANDING INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR WHEREABOUTS, SO WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE SAFE.

WHAT WE KNOW IS HAVING IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT IN OUR COMMUNITIES POSES A THREAT TO OUR FAMILIES.

HAVING DETENTION CENTERS IN OUR COMMUNITIES POSES A THREAT TO OUR IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES.

SO, THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE TODAY, CALLING ON THE LEGISLATURE TO ENACT HB9, THE IMMIGRANT SAFETY ACT.

>> Gwyneth: AND THIS WOULD PREVENT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, STATE GOVERNMENT, FROM CONTRACTING WITH, EFFECTIVELY, PRIVATE PRISONS TO HOUSE THESE DETAINEES, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> Sheff: WHAT THIS BILL WOULD DO IS GET NEW MEXICO OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF IMMIGRATION DETENTION.

IT WOULD PROHIBIT THE STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT FROM CONTRACTING WITH ICE TO HOLD PEOPLE IN FEDERAL CIVIL IMMIGRATION DETENTION.

IMMIGRATION DETENTION IS NOT MEANT TO BE PUNITIVE.

IT'S NOT PART OF THE CRIMINAL SYSTEM.

IT'S JUST MEANT TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE SHOW UP FOR THEIR HEARINGS IN IMMIGRATION COURT.

WE KNOW FROM TIME AND AGAIN RESEARCH THAT'S BEEN DONE THAT PEOPLE ARE BEST SERVED WHEN THEY'RE HOME WITH THEIR FAMILIES IN THEIR COMMUNITIES WITH THE SUPPORT THAT THEY CAN GET TO BE ABLE TO FULLY PARTICIPATE IN THEIR IMMIGRATION CASES.

WHAT WE HAVE GOING ON HERE IN NEW MEXICO IS ICE EXPLOITING OUR COUNTIES, USING THEM AS PASSTHROUGHS TO GET AROUND FEDERAL RULES THAT ARE MEANT TO PROMOTE SAFETY AND PROTECT TAXPAYERS AND PROTECT AGAINST CORRUPTION.

AND WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING IS ICE EVENTUALLY USES OUR COUNTIES TO GET AROUND THOSE RULES AND ENTER INTO NON-COMPETITIVE NO-BID CONTRACTS WITH THESE MASSIVE OUT-OF-STATE PRIVATE PRISON COMPANIES THAT HOLD PEOPLE HERE IN INHUMANE CONDITIONS.

>> Gwyneth: BUT THERE WERE, ACCORDING TO ICE, 20 OF THESE FOLKS WHO YOU SAY WERE DISAPPEARED THAT HAD BEEN ARRESTED ON SERIOUS CRIMES.

WON'T THIS BILL, IN SOME WAY, PREVENT LAW ENFORCEMENT FROM GETTING DANGEROUS CRIMINALS OFF THE STREET?

>> Sheff: THIS BILL IN NO WAY PREVENTS FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT FROM COORDINATING WITH STATE AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TO ENFORCE STATE CRIMINAL LAWS, OR FEDERAL CRIMINAL LAWS.

IT DOESN'T CHANGE DECISION-MAKING ABOUT WHO IS HELD IN CUSTODY, WHETHER IT'S IN CRIMINAL CUSTODY OR IMMIGRATION CUSTODY.

THAT'S BEYOND WHAT THE STATE CAN CONTROL.

WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY AND AUTHORITY AS NEW MEXICANS TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE DON'T WANT TO BE A PART OF THIS AGGRESSIVE AND HARSH FEDERAL IMMIGRATION SCHEME.

>> Gwyneth: I UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH CRIMES REPRESENT A MINORITY OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DETAINED.

AND EDWIN, WE HAVE YOU HERE TODAY, YOU WERE DETAINED BY ICE.

TELL YOUR STORY, JUST A LITTLE BIT.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> Castillo: IT WAS JUST LAST YEAR.

I FOUND MYSELF TAKEN BY THE CARTEL.

AND WHEN I WAS ABLE TO FREE MYSELF, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU WAS ALREADY ON U.S.

SOIL.

WHAT I DID WAS JUST RUN OUT TO MAIN ROAD, AND THAT'S WHEN I WAS ABLE TO GET IN CONTACT WITH BORDER PATROL AND LITERALLY TURN MYSELF INTO THEM AND TELL THEM TO HELP ME.

MY SITUATION.

THEY TOOK ME IN.

I DID THE ASYLUM PROCESS.

I ENDED UP GOING TO EL PASO TO THE FAMOUS LAS CARPAS.

FROM THERE, I ENDED UP IN THE TORRANCE PRISON.

>> Gwyneth: BUT YOU WERE NOT CHARGED WITH A CRIME?

>> Castillo: NO, I WAS NOT.

>> Gwyneth: YOU TURNED YOURSELF INTO THE BORDER PATROL AND YOU ENDED UP IN THE TORRANCE COUNTY DETENTION FACILITY.

WHAT'S IT LIKE IN THERE?

>> Castillo: WELL, I'M PRETTY SURE EVERYBODY'S HEARD A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT, BUT IT'S A PLACE NOT TO BE.

IT'S A PLACE FOR HUMANS NOT TO BE IN AT ALL.

IT'S A VERY OLD STYLISH BUILDING.

THERE'S MOLD GROWING IN EVERY POD.

THE WATER IS DIRTY.

THE STAFF DOESN'T REALLY HELP YOU OUT.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES IS BECAUSE OF THE LANGUAGE BARRIER THAT THEY HAVE.

I DIDN'T HAVE A LANGUAGE BARRIER AT ALL AND I STILL WAS STRUGGLING TO GET, YOU KNOW, SOAP, TOILET PAPER, THINGS LIKE THAT, THAT YOU SHOULDN'T WAIT THREE TO FOUR DAYS TO GET WHEN YOU ASK FOR IT THAT SAME DAY.

WHEN I WAS THERE, AND SAVED A COUPLE OLD FOLKS, PROBABLY AGE OF MY FATHER, IN THEIR 40s AND 50s, FROM COMMITTING SUICIDE BECAUSE NOBODY WOULD TALK TO THEM, NOBODY WOULD TELL THEM WHAT'S GOING ON.

I GAVE LOT OF HOPE AND FAITH TO THESE PEOPLE THERE.

IT WAS 300 MEN, ACTUALLY, THE ONES THAT I CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE 14 DAYS I WAS THERE.

THERE WAS PEOPLE THAT I KNEW THAT WERE VEGETARIAN, HAD NOT EATEN FOR THREE DAYS BECAUSE THEY HAD NOT BEEN ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE GUARDS.

>> Gwyneth: NOW, YOU SPEAK ENGLISH REALLY WELL AND THAT'S BECAUSE YOU CAME HERE VERY YOUNG, IS THAT RIGHT?

TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOU GOT TO THIS COUNTRY?

>> Castillo: SO, IN 1999 OR 2000, MY PARENTS CAME TO THE UNITED STATES LEGALLY WITH A VISA.

I WAS A YEAR OLD WHEN I CAME TO THIS COUNTRY.

I GREW UP AND WENT TO SCHOOL, MADE FRIENDS.

AND LIVED THE CULTURE, AND GREW UP IN AMERICA.

>> Gwyneth: AND YOU WERE IN THE DACA PROGRAM?

>> Castillo: YES, WHEN I WAS 15 I HAD DACA.

>> Gwyneth: BUT YOU ENDED UP HAVING TO GO BACK TO MEXICO, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> Castillo: YES, IN 2019, I HAD TO TAKE VOLUNTARY DEPARTURE DUE TO THE DACA BEING REVOKED.

I WENT TO MEXICO IN 2019.

I SPENT ABOUT FOUR YEARS.

THOSE FOUR YEARS I HAD STRUGGLES THERE.

I WAS TAKEN BY THE CARTEL THREE TIMES.

THE LAST TIME, THAT'S WHEN I WAS ABLE TO BE, YOU KNOW, ESCAPE AND I WAS ON U.S.

SOIL WHEN I WAS ABLE TO DO THAT.

>> Gwyneth: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR STORY.

>> Castillo: YOU'RE WELCOME.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Biggs: WE'RE PART OF A PUBLIC SAFETY COALITION OF 11 ORGANIZATIONS THAT CAME WITH A VERY ROBUST AGENDA, HOUSING BEING ONLY ONE PIECE OF THAT.

AND WE'RE REALLY GRATEFUL TO BE WORKING IN COALITION TO TALK ABOUT WHAT REAL PUBLIC SAFETY LOOKS LIKE IN OUR STATE.

AND IT STARTS WITH HOUSING AS THE FOUNDATION FOR STABILITY AND SAFETY.

>> Lou: WE'LL FINISH UP AT THE ROUNDHOUSE WITH AN UPDATE ON SOME OF THOSE HOUSING PROPOSALS AND SOME NEW POTENTIAL TAX CREDITS.

THAT'S ALL COMING UP IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES.

LAST WEEK, THE NONPROFIT NEW MEXICO PRISON AND JAIL PROJECT SETTLED A CASE WITH SOCORRO COUNTY FOR $2 MILLION.

IT RESOLVED CLAIMS OF SEVERE ABUSE THAT THEIR CLIENT, JESSY CHAVEZ, SUFFERED IN THE SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO JAIL.

OFFICIALS THERE THREW CHAVEZ INTO SOLITARY CONFINEMENT SEVERAL TIMES DURING TWO STAYS AT THE JAIL, DESPITE KNOWING HE WAS SUFFERING FROM MENTAL ILLNESS.

STEVEN ROBERT ALLEN HAS BEEN ADVOCATING FOR REFORMS AROUND THE WAY SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS USED IN OUR STATE FOR YEARS.

FIRST, AS POLICY DIRECTOR FOR THE ACLU, AND NOW THROUGH LITIGATION AS DIRECTOR OF THE NEW MEXICO PRISON AND JAIL PROJECT.

THIS WEEK, ALLEN STOPPED BY OUR STUDIO FOR AN INTERVIEW WITH EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR ABOUT CHAVEZ'S CASE AND THE BROADER USE OF SOLITARY IN DETENTION CENTERS AROUND THE STATE.

>> Jeff: STEVE, IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

AND WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Allen: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> Jeff: YOU AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING FOR MANY YEARS ABOUT THE USE OF SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IN OUR STATE.

AND WE'RE GOING TO DO A WHOLE BUNCH OF THAT TODAY.

BUT I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN WITH CASE YOU RECENTLY SETTLED WITH SOCORRO COUNTY FOR A CLIENT OF YOURS BY THE NAME OF JESSIE CHAVEZ.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT, PLEASE, ABOUT JESSIE AND HOW HE CAME TO BE INCARCERATED THERE.

>> Allen: JESSIE CHAVEZ IS A PERSON I'VE GOTTEN TO KNOW QUITE WELL OVER THE LAST COUPLE YEARS.

HE HAS LIVED IN AN AROUND SOCORRO AND VALENCIA COUNTY HERE IN NEW MEXICO FOR HIS WHOLE LIFE.

AND HE'S ALSO SOMEONE WHO STRUGGLED WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES HIS ENTIRE LIFE.

AND WHAT THAT MEANS, UNFORTUNATELY IN THE UNITED STATES, IS THAT HE'S BEEN IN AND OUT OF INSTITUTIONS INCLUDING COUNTY JAILS FOR A BIG PART OF HIS LIFE.

THIS IS NOT THE WAY, UNFORTUNATELY, WE SHOULD TREAT PEOPLE.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER FOR SOMEONE LIKE JESSIE TO GET TREATMENT HE NEEDS FROM A PSYCHIATRIST, FROM MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS.

BUT HE WAS PLACED ON TWO OCCASIONS IN 2022 IN THE SOCORRO COUNTY JAIL AND THAT IS THE BASIS OF OUR LAWSUIT.

HE WAS PLACED IN A DRY CELL FOR MOST OF THAT TIME.

AND WHAT A DRY CELL IS, ESSENTIALLY, A VERY TINY CLOSET, ESSENTIALLY.

MUCH SMALLER THAN WHAT YOU WOULD THINK OF AS A JAIL CELL.

IT DOESN'T HAVE A TOILET.

AND IT DOESN'T HAVE RUNNING WATER.

AND HE WAS HAVING A PSYCHOTIC BREAKDOWN AT THE TIME BECAUSE HE WAS NOT RECEIVING THE TREATMENT HE NEEDED.

HE WAS LIVING IN HIS OWN FILTH.

HE WAS NOT RECEIVING MEDICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH CARE DURING THE MONTHS HE WAS THERE.

AND, PREDICTABLY, BECAUSE OF THE WAY SOLITARY CONFINEMENT WORKS ON THE MIND, HE BECAME MUCH, MUCH WORSE.

AND THAT'S THE BASIS OF OUR LAWSUIT.

TREATING SOMEONE LIKE THAT IS A VERY CLEAR VIOLATION OF THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION, AND A SETTLEMENT RESULTED THAT WAS QUITE SUBSTANTIAL.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

I WANT TO BACK UP THE TINIEST BIT, AND MAKE WHAT I THINK IS AN IMPORTANT NOTE HERE.

JESSIE WAS PICKED UP ON A MISDEMEANOR WARRANT FOR FAILING TO APPEAR IN COURT.

DO I HAVE THAT RIGHT?

>> Allen: I BELIEVE THAT'S RIGHT, ON THAT OCCASION.

YOU KNOW WHAT FAILURE TO APPEAR MEANS IN THE PUBLIC MINDS MIGHT MEAN HE'S ON THE LAM, HE'S RUNNING FROM THE LAW.

AND SOMEONE LIKE JESSIE'S CASE, WHAT IT MEANS IS HE'S HAVING A PSYCHOTIC BREAKDOWN.

HE CAN'T KEEP TRACK OF A CALENDAR, SO HE'S JUST NOT SHOWING UP IN FRONT OF A JUDGE WHEN HE'S SCHEDULED TO DO THAT.

AND THAT'S NOT JUST HAPPENING ON THIS OCCASION WITH JESSIE.

IT'S HAPPENING HIS WHOLE LIFE.

HE'S BEING PICKED UP BY POLICE AND THROWN INTO JAIL OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR, ESSENTIALLY, NOTHING.

>> Jeff: YEAH.

IN THIS CASE, AGAIN, IT'S A MISDEMEANOR WARRANT.

THIS ISN'T SOMEBODY WHO WAS ACCUSED OF MURDER, WHO LIKE YOU SAID, WAS OUT ON THE LAM AND FLEEING LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THIS WAS A PERSON -- THEY KNEW WHEN THEY CHECKED HIM IN TOO THAT THIS WAS SOMEBODY WITH A HISTORY OF MENTAL ILLNESS AND SOMEBODY THAT WAS INCARCERATED ON A MISDEMEANOR WARRANT FOR FAILING TO SHOW UP IN COURT.

>> Allen: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Jeff: STEVE, WHAT DID JAIL STAFF NOT DO FOR JESSIE WHEN HE GOT THERE?

AND WHAT DID THEY DO INSTEAD?

YOU TOLD ME SOME.

TELL ME A LITTLE MORE, IF YOU COULD.

>> Allen: WELL, A BIG PART OF IT IS THEY PUT HIM INTO THIS DRY CELL, THE SOLITARY CONFINEMENT CELL, AND ESSENTIALLY LEFT HIM THERE.

HE OFTEN DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO WATER.

HE WAS DEHYDRATED FOR MUCH OF THE TIME THERE.

>> Jeff: OR FOOD, ACCORDING TO YOUR COMPLAINT.

>> Allen: OR FOOD, YEAH.

OFTEN, THAT'S RIGHT.

AND HE, OBVIOUSLY, NEEDED -- YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE SOMEONE WHO IS A TRAINED MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL TO KNOW SEEING THOSE VIDEOS, SEEING WHO JESSIE WAS, THAT THIS PERSON CLEARLY NEEDED TO SEE A DOCTOR AND HE NEEDED MEDICATION.

I HAVE GOTTEN TO KNOW JESSIE QUITE WELL, AS I'VE SAID, AND JESSIE IS A VERY NICE PERSON.

HE'S A SMART PERSON.

HE HAS GOOD RELATIONSHIPS WITH HIS FAMILY.

I HAVE GOTTEN QUITE CLOSE TO HIM OVER TIME.

WHEN HE RECEIVES THE TREATMENT THAT HE NEEDS, HE IS A FUNCTIONAL PERSON WHO DOES WELL.

THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THIS CASE.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO ZERO IN, JUST A LITTLE BIT.

I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DISAGREE, NO MATTER WHERE YOU STAND, THAT THE TREATMENT HE RECEIVED IN THE SOCORRO COUNTY DETENTION CENTER WAS INHUMANE.

I WANT TO FOCUS SPECIFICALLY ON THE SOLITARY CONFINEMENT ASPECT OF THIS.

WHAT EFFECT DID THOSE LONG, WEEKS-LONG, STRETCHES OF BEING ALONE IN A SETTING LIKE THAT HAVE ON JESSIE?

>> Allen: WELL, SOLITARY CONFINEMENT HAS AN INTERESTING HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY, RIGHT?

THE UNITED STATES INVENTED IT AS A REFORM BACK IN THE 1820s IN PENNSYLVANIA IN THIS FAMOUS STATE PENITENTIARY.

PEOPLE HAVE KNOWN FROM THE BEGINNING -- CHARLES DICKENS ACTUALLY VISITED THAT PRISON AND WROTE THIS SCATHING ESSAY ON WHAT HAPPENS TO THE HUMAN MIND WHEN YOU'RE PLACED IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

AND WE ARE SOCIAL CREATURES.

WE NEED TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER PEOPLE MAKE US WHO WE ARE AS HUMAN BEINGS.

WHEN YOU PLACE PEOPLE IN ISOLATION, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WITH EXISTING MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, YOU LOSE YOUR MIND.

YOU LOSE WHAT'S LEFT OF YOUR MIND.

YOU START HEARING VOICES, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED IN JESSIE'S CASE.

VOICES THAT SOUND DEMONIC TO HIM, TELLING HIM THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON, GIVING HIM ALL OF THIS -- HALLUCINATIONS ARE QUITE COMMON.

PEOPLE OFTEN BECOME MORE AGGRESSIVE.

AND THIS IS THE IRONY BECAUSE CORRECTIONS PROFESSIONALS ARE OFTEN TELLING US THEY NEED SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN CONTROL OF THEIR INSTITUTIONS.

WHAT WE KNOW FROM DECADES, AND ACTUALLY CENTURIES OF RESEARCH AND KNOWLEDGE, IS THAT IT MAKES PEOPLE MORE AGGRESSIVE, MORE DIFFICULT TO MANAGE, WHEN THEY'RE IN THESE DETENTION FACILITIES.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO JESSIE.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO GET TO THE CORRECTIONS PERSPECTIVE ON ALL OF THIS, BUT WE'LL GET THERE IN A MOMENT.

I WANT TO THROW THE LENS OPEN IN THE CONVERSATION, JUST A LITTLE BIT.

AS I MENTIONED OFF THE TOP, YOU AND I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE FOR LONG TIME.

YOU, AS A LITIGATOR AND A POLICY ADVOCATE, AND ME AS A JOURNALIST.

IN 2019, AFTER A COUPLE OF FAILED ATTEMPTS AT THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE, THE STATE PASSED A SERIES OF REFORMS AND CALLED THE RESTRICTED HOUSING ACT.

AND I WANT TO GET TO THAT ORWELLIAN TERM FOR WHAT THIS REALLY IS IN A MOMENT.

BUT WALK ME THROUGH SOME OF WHAT THE CHALLENGES WERE.

WHAT WERE THOSE REFORMS?

>> Allen: WELL, WHAT WE WANTED TO DO WITH THESE REFORMS IS INSTITUTE SOMETHING CLOSE TO WHAT'S CALLED THE MANDELA RULE, WHICH IS A BLANKET PROHIBITION ON LONG-TERM SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, DEFINED AS LONGER THAN 15 CONSECUTIVE DAYS.

THE LEGISLATURE, OF COURSE, ANY LEGISLATURE, IS A CONSENSUS OR COMPROMISE PROCESS.

SO, WE HAD TO MAKE COMPROMISES TO GET THAT LAW PASSED BACK WHEN I WAS AT THE ACLU WHEN I WAS POLICY DIRECTOR THERE.

AND WHAT THE LAW ENDED UP DOING, THE ONE THAT ENDED UP ON THE BOOKS, IS IT BANNED IT FOR CHILDREN, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT.

CHILDREN, MORE THAN ANYONE, NEED ACCESS TO SOCIAL SKILLS AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT.

SO, PLACING KIDS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS PARTICULARLY PROBLEMATIC.

SO, THE BILL BANNED IT FOR THEM.

BANNED IT FOR PREGNANT WOMEN.

AND IT CREATED A LOT OF REQUIREMENTS FOR DOCUMENTING WHEN YOU PLACE SOMEONE IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT WHO HAS A SERIOUS MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE, LIKE JESSIE.

AND TO MOVE THEM OUT OF THERE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE WE KNOW HOW BAD IT IS FOR PEOPLE WITH A SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS.

IT ALSO CREATED CERTAIN REPORTING REQUIREMENTS, SO WE KNOW WHO IS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND WHO ISN'T.

AND THAT IS, ESSENTIALLY, THE EXTENT OF THE BILL.

>> Jeff: ANOTHER THING THE BILL DID, AND CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, IT FOR THE FIRST TIME DEFINED SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

I WANT TO GET INTO SOME OF THE LANGUAGE THAT GETS USED AROUND THIS.

AGAIN, THIS LAW IS CALLED THE RESTRICTED HOUSING ACT.

>> Allen: RIGHT.

>> Jeff: THE WORDS SOLITARY CONFINEMENT DO NOT APPEAR ANYWHERE IN THIS STATUTE.

>> Allen: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Jeff: LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT FOR JUST A MINUTE.

WHY DO GOVERNMENT ENTITIES AND CORRECTIONS PROFESSIONALS WANT TO USE TERMS LIKE SEGREGATED HOUSING OR RESTRICTED HOUSING INSTEAD OF CALLING THIS WHAT IT IS?

WHAT DOES THAT DO TO THE ZEITGEIST, THE PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF THIS PRACTICE?

>> Allen: YEAH, IT IS IN A LITERAL SENSE ORWELLIAN.

IT'S CONTROL OVER A LANGUAGE TO HIDE WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON.

SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS THE TERM USED IN THE LITERATURE.

IT'S THE, FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD, GENERIC TERM THAT EVERYONE USES.

IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE BEST RESEARCH AROUND THIS PRACTICE, IT IS CALLED SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

SOME OF THE BEST RESEARCHERS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS OVER THE LAST MANY DECADES, THAT'S WHAT THEY CALL IT.

IN THE CORRECTIONS SPHERE, THEY USE A SERIES OF EUPHEMISMS.

THIS IS ONE OF THE COMPROMISES THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR OUR OPPOSITION TO MAKE.

WE CALLED IT SOMETHING LIKE THE ISOLATED CONFINEMENT ACT, INITIALLY.

>> Jeff: THEY DIDN'T LIKE THAT.

>> Allen: THEY DIDN'T LIKE THAT.

THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TOLD US -- AND WHEN I SAY THEY, REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE COUNTY AND FROM THE CORRECTIONS DEPARTMENT, THAT THEY WANT THAT TERM TO BE WIPED OUT OF OUR LANGUAGE ENTIRELY.

I'M SORRY, BUT THAT'S JUST NOT POSSIBLE.

IN THE CORRECTIONS REALM, IN THE JAIL SETTING, THEY USE TERMS LIKE RESTRICTIVE HOUSING, ADMINISTRATIVE SEGREGATION, DISCIPLINARY SEGREGATION, THE SHU, THE SPECIAL HOUSING UNIT.

BACK IN THE DAY, IT WOULD BE CALLED THE HOLE.

>> Jeff: YEAH.

>> Allen: A TERM THEY ALSO WOULDN'T LIKE.

ANY NUMBER OF TERMS TO HIDE WHAT'S GOING ON, SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY DOING TO THESE INDIVIDUALS.

>> Jeff: STEVE, A LOT OF HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS USE THE WORD TORTURE TO DESCRIBE SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

THAT IS A BIG, HEAVY, LOADED WORD.

I WONDER WHAT YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS AFTER YEARS OF THE WORK YOU'VE DONE.

IS SOLITARY CONFINEMENT TORTURE?

>> Allen: IT'S AN ACCURATE WORD.

I BELIEVE IT WAS A REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE UNITED NATIONS, AND I CAN'T REMEMBER HIS NAME, BUT IT WAS DEFINED IN SOME REPORT AS TORTURE, IN THE CONTEXT OF CREATING THESE MANDELA RULES.

LIKE WHAT ARE THE HUMANE WAYS THAT COUNTRIES ARE EXPECTED TO TREAT PRISONERS AROUND THE WORLD?

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S WHEN THIS DISCUSSION STARTED.

IT'S ACCURATE BECAUSE OF WHAT WE KNOW FROM THE RESEARCH, FROM THE SCIENCE.

WE'RE HURTING PEOPLE BY PLACING THEM IN THESE CONDITIONS.

AND WE CAN HIDE FROM THAT FACT BECAUSE WE'RE NOT DOING WHAT WE USED TO DO WITH DISCIPLINE, WHICH IS CHOPPING OFF PEOPLE'S HANDS, MAIMING THEM, BRANDING THEM, TORTURING THEM IN A PHYSICAL SENSE.

WITH SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, WE'RE TORTURING THEM IN A MENTAL SENSE.

IT IS STILL TORTURE FOR PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY HAVE TO ENDURE IT.

MANY PEOPLE SAY IT'S WORSE.

>> Jeff: PROGRESS, NO MORE HAND LOPPING, BUT WE'RE STILL GOING TO MAKE YOU BE ALONE FOR MONTHS ON END.

>> Allen: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO RETURN TO SOMETHING YOU MENTIONED, WHICH IS THE PUSHBACK TO REFORM ON THIS FRONT THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THIS STATE.

I CAN REMEMBER SOME OF THOSE LEGISLATIVE HEARINGS BACK IN THE DAY.

THEY WOULD BUS IN CORRECTIONS OFFICERS.

THE CORRECTIONS SECRETARY WOULD BE THERE.

WHAT THEY REFERRED TO SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AS IS A TOOL.

TO, AS YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER, MAINTAIN ORDER IN THE FACILITY.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

THIS IS A TOOL THAT SEEMS NECESSARY IN THE MODERN CORRECTIONS ENVIRONMENT?

>> Allen: I BELIEVE -- YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE INDIVIDUALS NEED TO BE SEPARATED TEMPORARILY FROM GENERAL POPULATION.

FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

BUT, FAIRLY QUICKLY, MOVED BACK INTO A SETTING WHERE THEY CAN INTERACT WITH OTHER PEOPLE, TALK WITH A COUNSELOR, TALK WITH THEIR FELLOW PRISONERS.

IT CAN BE USED AS A LEGITIMATE TOOL FOR SHORT PERIODS, BUT LONG-TERM SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS FAR FROM BEING A LEGITIMATE CORRECTIONS TOOL AND IT ACTUALLY UNDERMINES CORRECTION SAFETY.

THERE IS LOTS OF RESEARCH AROUND THAT.

BACK IN 2014, I BELIEVE IT WAS, THERE WAS THIS LARGE NATIONAL REPORT CALLED THE GROWTH OF MASS INCARCERATION IN THE UNITED STATES FROM THE NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNSEL, I BELIEVE.

AND THERE'S A CHAPTER IN THERE ON SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND ALL OF THE DANGERS THAT ARE POSED TO CORRECTIONS INSTITUTIONS BY THE MISUSE OF THIS PRACTICE.

THIS HAS BEEN WELL KNOWN FOR LONG TIME.

WE NEED TO CATCH UP.

95% OF PEOPLE WHO ARE INCARCERATED NOW ARE GOING TO BE BACK IN OUR COMMUNITIES AT SOME POINT.

IF WE TORTURE PEOPLE LIKE THIS, WITH THIS PRACTICE, BY MISUSING IT, THIS HAS PUBLIC SAFETY CONSEQUENCES THAT ARE THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT PEOPLE IN CORRECTIONS OR POLITICIANS SAY THEY'RE DOING BY KEEPING THIS HORRIBLE PRACTICE.

>> Jeff: ALL RIGHT.

IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS NOT THE DEPARTMENT OF PUNISHMENT.

>> Allen: RIGHT.

>> Jeff: MOVING BEYOND THAT, YOU HAD MENTIONED THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DOCUMENT WHY THEY'VE PLACED SOMEONE IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, HOW LONG THEY'VE BEEN THERE, AND AN ACTION PLAN TO GET THEM OUT.

PARTICULARLY, IF IT IS SOMEONE WHO STRUGGLED WITH MENTAL ILLNESS.

THE LAST TIME I TRIED TO DIG INTO WHAT THAT REPORTING LOOKED LIKE, SO THAT I COULD GIVE NEW MEXICANS, AS A JOURNALIST, A PICTURE OF HOW SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS USED IN OUR STATE IT WAS A FRUSTRATING EXERCISE, AS YOU MIGHT RECALL.

WE RAN INTO INCOMPLETE DATA, MISSING DATA, SUPER MESSY DATA.

WE WEREN'T ABLE TO REALLY DO WHAT WE WANTED TO DO, WHICH WAS TO SAY THIS IS HOW OFTEN THEY'RE USING IT, THESE ARE THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF WHO IT'S BEING USED AGAINST.

I WONDER, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, IF YOU'VE KEPT UP, HOW IS THAT GOING NOW?

HOW ARE THOSE 2019 REFORMS WORKING, IF THEY ARE?

>> Allen: ONE DISCLAIMER I SHOULD SAY IS AS DIRECTOR AT THE NEW MEXICO PRISON AND JAIL PROJECT, I DO NOT DO LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY.

BUT IN MY PREVIOUS ROLE AT THE ACLU, AND JUST FROM WHAT I'VE OBSERVED AS A CITIZEN, IS THAT THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT IN THE ACTUAL STATUTE FOR HOW THE DATA IS COLLECTED AND HOW IT IS DISSEMINATED TO THE PUBLIC.

AND THEN, THERE'S ALSO JUST GAMESMANSHIP ON THE PART OF THE COUNTIES AND THE CORRECTIONS DEPARTMENT IN TERMS OF MASKING THE DATA, MAKING IT HARD TO GET TO, NOT STANDARDIZING IT IN A WAY THAT'S USEFUL FOR THE PUBLIC.

SO, THAT IS PROBLEMATIC.

I THINK IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.

BOTH STATUTORILY AND IN TERMS OF HOW THE EXISTING STATUTE IS ENFORCED AND IMPLEMENTED.

>> Jeff: WHAT MIGHT ENFORCEMENT LOOK LIKE, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE OLD CARROT-AND-STICK THING, THERE'S NO STICK TO ANY OF THIS.

IF SOCORRO COUNTY DECIDES WE'RE NOT GOING TO FILE A MONTHLY REPORT, AS REQUIRED IN THE RESTRICTED HOUSING ACT, WITH OUR BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM?

>> Allen: WELL, RIGHT NOW, NOTHING.

I THINK THERE'S WAYS, IN TERMS OF A CIVIL RIGHTS LAWSUIT, TO USE THIS AS AN ARGUMENT FOR BAD FAITH, FOR -- IT CAN BE USED CREATIVELY.

I THINK THE STATUTE WOULD BE IMPROVED BY HAVING SOME STICK.

IT PROBABLY NEEDS SOME STICK FOR THIS TO HAPPEN.

AND THAT, YOU KNOW, I LEAVE UP TO ADVOCATES WORKING IN THAT SPACE.

WE BOTH LOST A GREAT FRIEND IN BARRON LAMONT JONES WHO WAS DOING THIS WORK FOR A LONG TIME AT THE ACLU.

WHO HAD CREATIVE IDEAS ABOUT HOW TO IMPROVE THAT BILL.

THERE'S IDEAS THAT HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED.

YOU KNOW, YOU COULD HAVE A CAUSE OF ACTION THAT WOULD SCARE THEM.

YOU COULD HAVE SOMETHING LIKE IPRA, PERHAPS.

LIKE A PER DIEM PENALTY PER DAY UNTIL THEY GET THE DATA CORRECT ON THEIR WEBSITE.

I THINK THERE'S NUMEROUS WAYS TO BRING OUT THE STICK AND THE STICK IS PROBABLY NECESSARY.

>> Jeff: SO, THERE'S A BILL THIS SESSION -- THIS IS THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2019 THAT ANYTHING HAS BEEN INTRODUCED, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THAT WOULD EXPAND THE 2019 LAW.

SOME OF THE THINGS IT WOULD DO -- LIKE RIGHT NOW THE DEFINITION FOR SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS 22 HOURS A DAY WHY YOURSELF WITH NO MEANINGFUL HUMAN CONTACT, ESSENTIALLY.

THIS BILL WOULD REDUCE THAT TO 17 HOURS PER DAY.

IT WOULD CONTINUE TO RESTRICT THE USE OF SOLITARY CONFINEMENT ON ADDITIONAL CLASSES OF PEOPLE.

THEY'RE SORT OF NIBBLING AROUND THE EDGES, KINDS OF THINGS, NOT ANY BIG STICK LIKE YOU AND I JUST WISHED THAT THERE WERE.

THAT BILL IS GOING ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE.

I KNOW THAT YOU DON'T DO THE LEGISLATIVE ADVOCACY STUFF ANYMORE, BUT YOU DID BACK IN 2019.

WHY MIGHT A BILL LIKE THAT BE A TOTAL NON-STARTER AT THIS POINT?

IN TERMS OF LIKE LEGISLATIVE WILL.

>> Allen: WELL, THE BACKLASH TO BILLS LIKE THAT -- YOU KNOW, WE'VE TRIED THAT WITH THE INITIAL VERSION OF THE RESTRICTED HOUSING ACT.

THE BACKLASH IS FIERCE FROM THE CORRECTIONS DEPARTMENT ITSELF AND OFTEN FROM THE COUNTIES.

THE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES THAT THEY POUR INTO BUSSING PEOPLE INTO THESE LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEES, GIVING THEM TALKING POINTS, TRAINING THEM TO SAY WHAT THEY NEED TO SAY TO UNDERMINE THESE THINGS.

QUITE FRANKLY, JUST SCARING THE HECK OUT OF LEGISLATORS AND THE PUBLIC, WHICH IS WHY WE GET MASS INCARCERATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

IT'S FEAR-BASED, RATHER THAN REALITY AND FACT-BASED.

OUR FRIEND BARRON DID INCREDIBLE WORK COUNTER ACTING THAT.

HAVING FAMILIES STANDING UP AND TALKING ABOUT THEIR OWN SONS AND THE TREATMENT THAT THEY RECEIVED IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND WHAT IT DID TO THEM WAS A GREAT WAY TO BALANCE OUT THAT STORY AND BALANCE OUT THE FEAR MONGERING, QUITE FRANKLY, FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

SO, THERE'S BEEN HEROIC WORK IN THE STATE.

THAT'S, I THINK, JUST AS A CITIZEN WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN GOING FORWARD.

THE ACLU IS STILL DOING FANTASTIC WORK.

THERE ARE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS AND ADVOCATES AND JUST MOMS.

MOMS, PARENTS, BROTHERS, SISTERS OF PEOPLE THAT ARE INCARCERATED THAT ARE SHARING THEIR STORIES ABOUT THE REALITY OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE EXPERIENCE THIS HORRIBLE PRACTICE.

>> Jeff: WE COULD USE ANOTHER BARRON, STEVE.

>> Allen: I KNOW.

>> Jeff: STEVE ALLEN, DIRECTOR OF THE NEW MEXICO PRISON AND JAIL PROJECT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME TODAY.

>> Allen: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO JEFF AND TO STEVEN ROBERT ALLEN.

YOU CAN FIND MORE INFORMATION ON THE SETTLEMENT IN THE JESSIE CHAVEZ CASE ON OUR YOUTUBE AND INSTAGRAM PAGES.

NOW, BACK TO THE LEGISLATURE, WHERE LAWMAKERS ARE WORKING TO PASS AN EXTENSIVE TAX PACKAGE.

AS IT STANDS, IT WOULD INCLUDE NEW CREDITS FOR A VARIETY OF NEW MEXICANS.

DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE DERRICK LENTE OF SANDIA PUEBLO SPONSORED HOUSE BILL 14.

THE FULL HOUSE PASSED IT LAST SATURDAY, AND THE SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE APPROVED IT EARLIER THIS WEEK, BUT NOT WITHOUT SOME KEY AMENDMENTS.

AS REPRESENTATIVE LENTE TELLS GWYNETH, HE'S NOT GOING TO SUPPORT SOME OF THOSE CHANGES.

>> Gwyneth: CHAIRMAN LENTE, LAST WEEK, THE HOUSE PASSED A TAX PACKAGE THAT WOULD RAISE A TAX ON OIL ABOUT .28 OF A PERCENT, LESS THAN 1%.

AND THE PURPOSE IS TO DO SOME AFFORDABILITY WORK, TO GIVE SOME TAX BREAKS TO WORKING NEW MEXICANS.

TELL ME WHAT THE GOAL OF THIS IS.

>> Lente: THE GOAL OF THE INITIATIVE TO RAISE TAXES OR RAISE THE REVENUE ON OIL AND GAS IS TO HELP SUPPORT AN INITIATIVE THAT WAS IN HOUSE BILL 14.

AND HOUSE BILL 14 IS AN INITIATIVE TO EXPAND WORKING TAX CREDITS FOR INDIVIDUALS, SO THAT INDIVIDUALS MAKING MINIMUM WAGE ALL THE WAY UP TO FAMILIES MAKING UPWARDS OF $70,000 PER YEAR WOULD HAVE THEIR STATE TAX LIABILITY COMPLETELY EXTINGUISHED.

SO, IN DOING SO, WOULD PROVIDE THEM AN ABILITY TO KEEP MORE MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS.

AND AS YOU AND I KNOW VERY WELL IS IN THIS TIME OF -- YOU CAN SAY IT LOOSELY, FEDERAL TURMOIL, HAVING ANY MONEY IN YOUR POCKET TO PAY FOR UTILITIES, FOOD, RENT IS MONEY THAT IS IS GOING TO BE NEAR AND DEAR, USEFUL, TO THOSE INDIVIDUALS IN OUR STATE.

>> Gwyneth: YOU MENTIONED THE FEDERAL TURMOIL.

THIS IS THE TIME WHEN I THINK A LOT OF STATES ARE FEELING INSECURE ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN WASHINGTON.

WE'RE ALSO STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS OIL BOOM, BUT THAT COULD CRASH.

THIS IS THE RIGHT TIME TO BE GIVING TAX BREAKS?

>> Lente: TAX BREAKS TO OUR CITIZENS?

ABSOLUTELY.

WHEN THEY CAN KEEP MORE MONEY IN THEIR POCKETS, THEY'LL HAVE MORE MONEY TO SPEND IN THEIR ECONOMIES.

SO, IT'S RECOGNIZED THAT FOR EVERY MILLION DOLLARS THAT WE'RE PROVIDING IN A TAX INCENTIVE, WE'LL SEE DOUBLE OF THAT IN OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY.

FOR INSTANCE, IN THIS CASE, HOUSE BILL 14 WILL SHOW ABOUT A $70 MILLION INJECTION OF AN INVESTMENT INTO AN EXPANSION OF A TAX CREDIT.

WE WILL SEE THAT IN OUR STATE, IN OUR LOCAL COMMUNITIES, UPWARDS OF ABOUT 130 TO $150 MILLION IN RETURN OF ECONOMIC BOOM, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT.

>> Gwyneth: SO, THIS INCREASE WOULD BRING THIS TAX IN LINE WITH OTHER BIG OIL-PRODUCING STATES, INCLUDING ALASKA, NORTH DAKOTA, LOUISIANA.

BUT NOT TEXAS, AND WE SHARE THE PERMIAN WITH TEXAS.

WHAT IS TO PREVENT THEM FROM JUST PICKING UP THEIR RIGS AND MOVING ACROSS THE STATE LINE AND SAYING FORGET IT, TEXAS IS FRIENDLIER, WE'RE GOING TO DRILL OVER THERE?

>> Lente: THERE'S NOTHING THAT'S GOING TO PROHIBIT ANYBODY FROM MOVING AWAY FROM THIS STATE.

BUT THE POINT IS IN THIS INITIATIVE I MADE THE ANALOGY ON THE HOUSE FLOOR THAT NEW MEXICO HAS SOME OF THE BEST OF THE BEST NATURAL RESOURCES ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

OIL AND GAS BEING ONE OF THOSE.

SO, I MADE THE ANALOGY ABOUT WHAT THE PERMIAN BASIN IS TO OIL AND GAS IS WHAT THE SAN JUAN RIVER IS TO TROUT FLY FISHER MEN AND WOMEN.

WE HAVE THE BEST OF THE BEST IN NEW MEXICO.

THERE'S NO SURPRISE THAT WHEN PEOPLE COME FROM AROUND THE WORLD TO COME AND FISH IN THE SAN JUAN, THEY KNOW IT'S THE BEST.

WHEN THE INDUSTRIES COME FROM AROUND THE WORLD TO DIP THEIR STRAW IN THE PERMIAN BASIN, THEY KNOW IT'S THE BEST.

AND WE HAVE A GREAT STRUCTURE, TAX STRUCTURE, GREAT BUSINESS STRUCTURE HERE THAT ALLOWS THEM TO DO THAT.

SO, IN DOING SO, THAT'S A REASON WHY YOU'VE SEEN THIS OIL BOOM PROGRESS YEAR AFTER YEAR OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS IS BECAUSE WE'RE A FRIENDLY STATE, THAT IS, FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE, IS A PARTNER WITH OIL GAS THAT AT THIS POINT CONTRIBUTES ABOUT 35% TO 40% TO OUR ANNUAL BUDGET.

>> Gwyneth: NOW WE ARE, AS I SAID, IN AN OIL BOOM PERIOD.

BUT I'M SURE OIL AND GAS FEELS REALLY ATTACKED BY THIS CONTINUAL TRYING TO SQUEEZE THEM FOR MORE AND MORE MONEY.

THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON THAT INDUSTRY?

>> Lente: YOU KNOW, THEY'RE QUICK TO RESPOND.

OR THEY -- ADVOCATES, OIL AND GAS INITIATIVES, ARE QUICK TO RESPOND, DEMOCRATS HOW DARE YOU PUSH BACK ON OIL AND GAS, HOW DARE YOU BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU?

I WOULD PUSH BACK TO SAY THAT UNDER THIS DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP THAT THIS INDUSTRY HAS THRIVED THAT WE'VE BECOME LARGER PARTNERS, BUT ALSO I WOULD MAKE MENTION THAT OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS THAT IN NEW MEXICO THAT INDUSTRY HAS GROWN, IN TERMS OF WORKFORCE, UPWARDS OF 1%.

FURTHERMORE, IN 2019, THEIR NET PROFITS IN NEW MEXICO WERE $2 BILLION.

FAST FORWARD TO 2024, THAT NET PROFIT IS UPWARDS OF $10 BILLION TODAY.

SO, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT GROSS PROFITS.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT TAXES PAID TO NEW MEXICO.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NET PROFITS THESE INDUSTRIES ARE MAKING.

LARGE AND IN PART OUT OF STATE MULTINATIONAL CONGLOMERATES.

SO, IT'S GOOD TAX POLICY WHEN YOU CAN UTILIZE AN EXPORT TAX LIABILITY TO PAY FOR IN-STATE BENEFITS.

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE INITIATIVES THAT DOES JUST THAT.

SO, IF THAT MEANS THAT THOSE MULTINATIONAL OUT-OF-STATE CONGLOMERATES HAVE TO REDUCE THEIR NET PROFITS OF $10 BILLION BY $130 MILLION, I THINK WE HAVE TO WEIGH THE BENEFITS OF THAT AND THE POLICY AROUND THAT.

SO, FOR NEW MEXICANS, I BELIEVE IT'S A GREAT DEAL.

>> Gwyneth: SO, BY RAISING THIS TAX A LITTLE BIT YOU CREATE THIS ROOM TO GIVE SOME TAX CUTS TO WORKING PEOPLE, AS YOU JUST SAID.

NOW, YOU PASSED THIS BILL ON TO THE SENATE AND THEY HAVE CHANGED IT.

THEY ADDED ON A BUNCH MORE TAX BREAKS.

DO YOU PLAN TO AGREE WITH THOSE?

>> Lente: WHEN I READ THE AMENDMENTS YESTERDAY AS IT WAS PASSED OUT OF THE SENATE, I HAD A BRIEF CONVERSATION WITH BOTH LEADER WIRTH AS WELL AS THE CHAIRWOMAN, CHAIRWOMAN HAMBLEN, FROM THAT COMMITTEE.

AND I FLAGGED A COUPLE OF INITIATIVES THAT THEY HAVE IN THEIR AMENDMENTS THAT STUCK OUT TO ME.

SO, AT THIS POINT IN TIME IN CONSULTATION WITH OUR LEADERSHIP HERE ON THE HOUSE SIDE.

BUT I THINK A PREVIEW TO THAT WOULD BE THAT I WOULD ASK THAT WE NOT CONCUR AND THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT WE COULD, PERHAPS, IRON OUT IN TERMS OF THEIR AMENDMENTS AND HOW IT'S SENT BACK TO THE HOUSE SO IT WOULD LEAD US TO A CONFERENCE COMMITTEE THAT WOULD TAKE PLACE IN THESE LAST 72 HOURS OF THE SESSION.

>> Gwyneth: THAT GOING TO BE A CONFRONTATION?

>> Lente: I WOULD HOPE NOT.

I WAS A PART OF THAT MY FIRST YEAR AS CHAIR OF THE HOUSE TAXATION AND REVENUE COMMITTEE.

AND AT THAT POINT IN TIME THAT WAS THE FIRST YEAR IT WAS A PUBLIC PROCESS.

SO, THERE WAS A BUNCH OF CAMERAS AND EVERYONE IS WATCHING US NEGOTIATE WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AND IT TURNED INTO A LITTLE BIT OF A CONFRONTATIONAL ISSUE.

AND IT TOOK A LONG TIME.

WE DON'T HAVE THAT TIME.

I THINK AT THIS POINT IN TIME WE COULD WORK BETTER TOGETHER, BOTH THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE, TO IRON OUT THESE ISSUES SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE THAT TYPE OF CONFRONTATION THIS GO.

>> Gwyneth: THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>> Lente: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: FINALLY TONIGHT, LAWMAKERS ARE CONSIDERING SEVERAL MEASURES AIMED AT ADDRESSING HOMELESSNESS BY EXPANDING ACCESS TO HOUSING IN OUR STATE.

RACHEL BIGGS IS THE CHIEF STRATEGY OFFICER AT ALBUQUERQUE HEALTH CARE FOR THE HOMELESS.

AS SHE TELLS GWYNETH, SHE'S PART OF A COALITION OF ADVOCATES THAT BELIEVES GIVING MORE PEOPLE A CHANCE AT A PLACE TO LIVE STRENGTHENS COMMUNITIES AROUND NEW MEXICO.

>> Gwyneth: RACHEL, ALBUQUERQUE HEALTH CARE FOR THE HOMELESS CAME TO THE ROUNDHOUSE THIS SESSION WITH AN AGENDA OF ITEMS THAT WOULD, YOU HOPED, REDUCE HOMELESSNESS AND IMPROVE ACCESS TO HOUSING.

ONE OF THE BIG ONES THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS -- ACTUALLY, SOUNDS LIKE A LITTLE THING, BUT REDUCING THE FEES INVOLVED IN HOUSING.

WHY IS THIS WORTH A LAW?

>> Biggs: SO DECREASING THE BARRIERS TO GETTING PEOPLE INTO HOUSING QUICKLY, ONE OF THE MAIN STRATEGIES WE WORKED ON WAS SENATE BILL 267.

SENATOR HAMBLEN CARRIED THIS BILL.

AND THIS BILL WOULD CAP APPLICATION FEES.

RIGHT NOW, WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT PEOPLE WILL BE CHARGED HOLDING FEES, ADMIN FEES, A LOT OF NON-REFUNDABLE FEES THAT CREATE A LOT OF BARRIERS FOR FOLKS ACCESSING HOUSING.

IT WAS ONE REALLY QUICK AND EASY SOLUTION THAT WE BROUGHT TO THE LEGISLATURE THIS SESSION TO DECREASE THOSE BARRIERS AND MAKE SURE WE CAN GET PEOPLE INTO HOUSING AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

>> Gwyneth: YOU HAD SOME OTHER THINGS THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT TOO IN TERMS OF THE KIND OF INCOME PEOPLE NEED TO DEMONSTRATE TO QUALIFY.

>> Biggs: SURE.

HB339, THE SOURCE OF INCOME PROTECTIONS IN THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT.

THIS WOULD ENSURE PEOPLE ARE NOT DISCRIMINATED FOR HOUSING BASED ON HOW THEY'RE APPLYING FOR THAT HOUSING OR PAYING FOR THAT HOUSING.

SO, IF YOU HAVE A HOUSING VOUCHER, A VETERAN'S ASSISTANCE VOUCHER, A SECTION 8 VOUCHER, OR YOU'RE PAYING WITH SOCIAL SECURITY INCOME, DISABILITY INCOME, THAT A LANDLORD WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SAY, NO, WE DON'T TAKE THOSE TYPES OF INCOME.

>> Gwyneth: AND YOU ALSO WERE LOOKING AT EVICTION RECORDS.

TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> Biggs: YEAH, HB253 WOULD SEAL EVICTIONS AT THE POINT OF FILING, SO IT WOULDN'T INACCURATELY HARM A TENANT APPLYING FOR HOUSING IF THEY HAVE LOST IT DUE TO AN EVICTION PROCESS THAT THEY MIGHT ACTUALLY WIN.

SO, RIGHT NOW, IF YOU GO THROUGH AN EVICTION PROCESS THOSE RECORDS ARE AUTOMATICALLY SENT TO SCREENING DATABASES.

AND THAT RECORD WILL FOLLOW THAT PERSON AND THAT FAMILY FOR LIFE, IN MANY CASES.

CREATING A LOT OF BARRIERS TO GETTING PEOPLE INTO HOUSING.

EVICTION HISTORY IS A HUGE BARRIER.

THIS BILL IS A PRETTY COMMON SENSE BILL THAT WOULD LOOK AT SEALING EVICTIONS RIGHT AT FILING AND IF THE TENANT LOSES THE CASE IT'S UNSEALED.

BUT AFTER THREE YEARS, WE BELIEVE THAT'S ENOUGH TIME TO SHOW THAT A TENANT JUST MAYBE HAD A HARD TIME, IS A GOOD TENANT, THAT EVICTION RECORD IS SEALED AND HOPEFULLY DECREASES BARRIERS TO GETTING THAT FAMILY BACK INTO HOUSING IN THE FUTURE.

>> Gwyneth: I'M TRYING TO GET MYSELF INTO THE HEAD SPACE OF SMALL LANDLORDS IN NEW MEXICO WHO MAYBE HAVE THEIR PARENTS' HOME OR ANOTHER HOUSE THAT THEY OWN AND THEY'RE RENTING THAT.

THIS IS INCREASING BARRIERS FOR THEM?

IS IT INCREASING THE RISK THAT THEY END UP WITH A TENANT WHO IS NOT GOING TO PAY AND THEY CAN'T GET RID OF THEM OR THEY'RE FORCED TO TAKE TENANTS WHO THEY'RE WORRIED WON'T TAKE CARE OF THE PROPERTY?

>> Biggs: THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE OUR SMALL MOM-AND-POP LANDLORDS IN THE STATE AND WORK REALLY WELL WITH A LOT OF LANDLORDS THAT LOVE WORKING WITH OUR POPULATION.

THEY'RE A BIG PART OF THE SOLUTION.

WE BELIEVE THESE SOLUTIONS ARE THINGS THAT BENEFIT OUR SMALLER MOM AND POPS AS WELL.

IT LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD.

SO, FOR FOR EXAMPLE, IN SENATE BILL 267 IT REQUIRES TRANSPARENCY.

IF YOU'RE A SMALL MOM AND POP AND YOU'RE COMPETING AGAINST A LARGER OUT OF STATE PROPERTY THAT MAY BE HIDING THEIR FEES, IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE COMPETING AGAINST IN THE MARKET.

WHILE A UNIT MIGHT SEEM AFFORDABLE, ONCE THAT TENANT GETS INTO THE LEASE AND REALIZES THERE'S LOT OF HIDDEN FEES ASSOCIATED WITH IT, THEY MIGHT SOON REALIZE THAT WAS NOT AFFORDABLE.

NOW THAT SMALL MOM AND POP LOST OUT ON A GOOD TENANT.

SIMILARLY, WITH THE SOURCE OF INCOME DISCRIMINATION, IT'S A REALLY GREAT STRATEGY IF YOU'RE A SMALL MOM AND POP TO TAKE HOUSING VOUCHERS BECAUSE IT IS STABLE INCOME.

YOU KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO GET PAID WITH THAT HOUSING VOUCHER.

IF YOU ARE A RENTER AND YOU A JOB AND YOU LOSE THAT JOB, YOUR LANDLORD IS NOT GOING TO GET PAID THAT NEXT MONTH AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE OUT THAT INCOME.

SO, IF YOU HAVE A VOUCHER AND THAT PERSON LOSES THEIR INCOME, THE VOUCHER COMES IN AND COVERS 100% OF THE COST AT THAT POINT.

SO, THAT LANDLORD WILL BE ABLE TO BENEFIT FROM THAT.

AND WE SAW THE IMPACT OF THAT DURING THE PANDEMIC.

LANDLORDS THAT TOOK VOUCHERS WERE ACTUALLY BETTER OFF THAN LANDLORDS THAT DIDN'T BECAUSE THEY HAD THAT STEADY SOURCE OF INCOME COMING IN.

>> Gwyneth: ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WERE WORKING ON, EARLIER IN THE SESSION ESPECIALLY, WAS MAKING SOME CHANGES TO MOBILE HOME PARKS.

ALLOWING PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IN MOBILE HOME PARKS TO HAVE THE OPTION TO BUY THAT?

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> Biggs: YEAH THE CENTER ON LAW AND POVERTY HAS BEEN THE MAIN CHAMPION OF THIS LEGISLATION.

ALBUQUERQUE HEALTH CARE FOR THE HOMELESS IS SUPPORTING IT.

AND THE FACT THAT MOBILE HOME PARKS ARE A HUGE PART OF OUR AFFORDABLE HOUSING STOCK.

FOR US AT ALBUQUERQUE HEALTH CARE FOR THE HOMELESS, WE'RE VERY CONCERNED WITH THE RISING POPULATION OF SENIORS EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS.

WE'RE SEEING HUGE INCREASES IN PEOPLE OVER 50 BECOMING HOMELESS.

THOSE NUMBERS ARE INCREASING.

LOOKING AT AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND SPECIFICALLY MOBILE HOME PARKS AND PROTECTIONS TO KEEP PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMES IS A KEY PREVENTION STRATEGY FOR PREVENTING FURTHER HOMELESSNESS, AND SPECIFICALLY FOR OUR SENIORS LIVING ON LOW INCOMES.

>> Gwyneth: WE'RE TALKING HERE ON WEDNESDAY.

THE SESSION IS OVER ON SATURDAY.

HOW WOULD YOU GRADE YOURSELF ON A REPORT CARD OF YOUR HOMELESSNESS AND HOUSING INITIATIVES SO FAR?

>> Biggs: SO FAR, I WOULD GIVE US AN A.

ACTUALLY, WE HAVE NEVER SEEN, IN THE LAST TEN YEARS THAT I'VE BEEN DOING THIS, SUCCESS THIS FAR IN THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

TO HAVE THESE MANY HOUSING POLICY ISSUES STILL ALIVE AT THIS POINT IS HUGE.

WE HAVE GOTTEN THE RENTAL FEES BILL THROUGH THE SENATE.

WE GOT IT UNANIMOUS THROUGH SENATE JUDICIARY.

37-2 IN THE SENATE FLOOR.

AND WE'RE REALLY HOPEFUL THAT IT WILL GET THROUGH THE HOUSE VERY QUICKLY AT THE END OF THE SESSION.

OUR OTHER TWO PRIORITY HOUSING BILLS, THE EVICTION CEILING, AND SOURCE OF INCOME, ARE ALMOST THROUGH THE PROCESS.

WE'RE JUST WAITING A HEARING ON SENATE JUDICIARY INTO THE SENATE FLOOR.

AND THOSE ARE BILLS THAT WE DIDN'T EXPECT TO GO SO FAR THIS SESSION.

I THINK IT REALLY SPEAKS TO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WANT SOLUTIONS TO THE HOMELESSNESS CRISIS.

AND THE SOLUTION IS HOUSING.

AND WE'VE COME WITH A VERY ROBUST AGENDA TO ADDRESS HOMELESSNESS AND COME WITH HOUSING POLICY SOLUTIONS.

AND WE'RE REALLY GRATEFUL THAT WE'VE MADE IT THIS FAR.

WE'RE HOPEFUL THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET ALL OF THOSE BILLS ACROSS THE FINISH LINE.

THIS IS ALSO A REALLY BIG PUBLIC SAFETY INITIATIVE FOR US.

AND WE'RE PART OF A PUBLIC SAFETY COALITION OF 11 ORGANIZATIONS THAT CAME WITH A VERY ROBUST AGENDA, HOUSING BEING ONLY ONE PIECE OF THAT.

AND WE'RE REALLY GRATEFUL TO BE WORKING IN COALITION TO TALK ABOUT WHAT REAL PUBLIC SAFETY LOOKS LIKE IN OUR STATE.

AND IT STARTS WITH HOUSING AS THE FOUNDATION FOR STABILITY AND SAFETY.

>> Gwyneth: THANK YOU FOR TALKING TO US.

>> Biggs: YEAH, THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO POLITICS CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND FOR ALL OF HER WORK FROM THE ROUNDHOUSE THESE LAST NINE WEEKS.

GWYNETH WILL BE IN STUDIO NEXT WEEK FOR A FULL WRAP UP OF THE 60-DAY SESSION.

THANKS TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THIS SHOW.

AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.