Gene: THIS MONTH MARKS THREE YEARS OF OUR ENVIRONMENTAL SERIES, OUR LAND.

IT HAS BECOME A FAVORITE FOR MANY OF YOU DURING THAT TIME THANKS TO THE STUNNING VIDEO AND THANKS TO ENVIRONMENTAL CORRESPONDENT LAURA PASKUS.

LAURA, WHEN YOU STARTED OUR LAND, WHAT DID YOU WANT TO DO?

Laura: HI GENE.

WE WERE HELPING TO BRING COMPLICATED SCIENCE TO NEW MEXICO PBS VIEWERS BUT WRAPPED UP IN A WAY THAT WAS VISUALLY APPEALING AND REALLY KIND OF EVOKES LOVE THAT SO MANY NEW MEXICANS FEEL FOR OUR LANDSCAPE, OUR RIVERS AND OUR COMMUNITIES.

Gene: WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THE ENVIRONMENT WITH US; ATTITUDES, DATA?

WHAT HAS BEEN DIFFERENT THAT YOU DISCOVERED.

Laura: WE HAVE SEEN BIG FLIPS.

ON THE POLITICAL SIDE OF THINGS ON THE STATE LEVEL AND FEDERAL LEVEL, KIND OF OPPOSITE FLIPS THERE WHEN IT COMES TO ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY, BUT WE SEE GROWING AWARENESS OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

MOST NEW MEXICANS UNDERSTAND THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS HAPPENING.

THERE WERE RECENT NUMBERS JUST OUT FROM THE YALE DEPARTMENT OF CLIMATE CHANGE COMMUNICATION WHICH SHOWED THAT 92% OF REGISTERED DEMOCRATS IN NEW MEXICO UNDERSTAND THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS HAPPENING AND 51% OF REPUBLICANS IN NEW MEXICO.

SO NEW MEXICANS KNOW THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS HAPPENING.

Gene: LIKE ALL OF US YOU HAVE BEEN STUCK INSIDE WHEN IT COMES TO PRODUCING NEW EPISODES.

WHEN YOU DO GET AN ALL CLEAR TO START TO VENTURE OUT AGAIN, WHAT IS AHEAD?

Laura: WE HAVE A NEAT EPISODE COMING UP LATER THIS SUMMER ABOUT THE ANIMAS RIVER AND ONCE WE CAN GET BACK OUT AGAIN I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO MORE STORIES ABOUT NEW MEXICO TRIBAL COMMUNITIES AND LAND MANAGEMENT AND THE STORIES ON RIVERS AND FORESTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

Gene: SPEAKING OF RIVERS, I HEAR ACTIVITY AT THE GILA RIVER WILDERNESS.

WHAT IS GOING ON THERE?

Laura: RIGHT.

EPISODES THIS MONTH FOCUSES ON UPDATES OF THE GILA RIVER DIVERSION PROJECT.

RECENTLY THE STATE VOTED TO STOP FUNDING THE DIVERSION PROJECT AND THE NEW MEXICO CAP ENTITY DOWN IN SOUTHWESTERN NEW MEXICO IS GOING TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THAT DECISION BUT IT IS A DEVELOPMENT THAT I AM SURE LOTS OF NEW MEXICANS ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN.

[MUSIC PLAYING] Laura: DIRECTOR ROLF SCHMIDT-PETERSEN, THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO VOTED IN 2014, WHEN I SHOULD MENTION YOU WERE NOT ON THE COMMISSION, AT THAT TIME, TO GREEN LIGHT THE GILA DIVERSION PROJECT AND MOVE FORWARD WITH THAT.

JUST RECENTLY, SIX YEARS LATER, THE COMMISSION HAS VOTED TO END FUNDING FOR ENVIRONMENTAL STUDIES ON THE DIVERSION PROJECT.

DOES THIS EFFECTIVELY END PLANS FOR ANY DEVELOPMENT ON THE GILA?

Schmidt-Petersen: IT WOULD PUT THREE QUESTIONS IN FRONT OF THEM THAT ARE DIRECTLY RELATED TO YOUR QUESTION.

ONE WAS, BASED UPON THE DRAFT ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT THAT WAS PUBLISHED ABOUT SIX OR EIGHT WEEKS AGO, AND THEIR ANALYSIS OF IT AND STAFF'S, DID THEY WANT THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION STAFF TO CONTINUE WORKING WITH THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION ON THAT NEPA PROCESS.

AND THE COMMISSION, AFTER A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF DISCUSSION, SAID THEY DID NOT AND DIRECTED US TO KIND OF STOP AND SLOW THAT PROCESS AND ULTIMATELY END IT.

WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF TAKING THOSE STEPS NOW.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, THEY VOTED TO NOT FUND THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION FOR THE COMPLETING OR CONTINUING OF THAT NEPA PROCESS.

THAT WAS ABOUT $635,000.

AND THEN THEY DIRECTED US TO WORK WITH RURAL COMMUNITIES IN THAT AREA AND THEY HIGHLIGHTED THE FACT THAT HAVING BEEN IN THOSE AREAS, THEY SAW A LOT OF THE CONCERNS AND ISSUES THAT A LOT OF FARMERS AND IRRIGATORS HAD AND THEY WANTED US TO CONTINUE WORKING WITH THEM BUT ON NON-UNIT PROJECTS, WHICH ARE PROJECTS THAT DON'T INVOLVE THIS EXCHANGE OF ARIZONA WATER SETTLEMENT ACT WATER.

Laura: THIS HAS BEEN A CONTROVERSIAL PROJECT AND PEOPLE ALL OVER THE STATE HAVE HAD LOTS OF OPINIONS ABOUT IT.

I AM CURIOUS, MOVING FORWARD, WHAT ARE YOUR HOPES FOR WATER PLANNING IN SOUTHWESTERN NEW MEXICO AND HOW PEOPLE CAN COME TOGETHER AND MOVE FORWARD IN THE FUTURE?

Schmidt-Petersen: IT REALLY HAS BEEN A VERY CONTENTIOUS EFFORT.

I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON WATER ISSUES IN THE STATE FOR 20 YEARS NOW AND THAT ISSUE AND THE ISSUE IN THE SOUTHWEST REGION REALLY HAS BEEN, IF NOT THE MOST CONTENTIOUS, PROBABLY CLOSE TO IT.

I REALLY AM HOPING THAT WE CAN HELP TO BRING KIND OF A MORE BROADER GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY TOGETHER TO LOOK AT A WIDER RANGE OF POTENTIAL ACTIVITIES THAT COULD BE PUT ON THE GROUND.

I KNOW THAT THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, CONCERNS THAT OUR COMMISSION EXPRESSED ABOUT THERE WERE DIVERSION DAMS IN THE RIVER THAT ARE THERE IN THE SAN FRANCISCO RIVER VALLEY AND GILA RIVER VALLEY.

THEY DIRECTED US TO REALLY FOCUS AND WORK WITH THOSE ENTITIES TO SEE IF WE CAN PUT SOMETHING IN PLACE THAT IS MORE HELPFUL FOR THOSE PARTIES, BUT ALSO MORE ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY.

THEY WERE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL THREAT TO NEW MEXICO FARMERS DOWN IN VIRDEN WHERE THERE WAS A POTENTIAL THAT THOSE FARMERS' ABILITY TO USE SOME OF THEIR WATER WOULD BE RESTRICTED BECAUSE OF LITIGATION IN ARIZONA.

AND THEY WANTED US TO EVALUATE THAT.

MORE GENERALLY, HAVING VISITED THE AREA, AND I THINK FROM GENERAL BACKGROUND, WE ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT OUR RURAL COMMUNITIES AND FINDING WAYS TO SUPPLY SUPPORT TO THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HELPS THEM WITH WATER USE BUT ALSO ENVIRONMENTALLY CONSCIOUS.

Laura: NORM GAUME, YOU ARE THE FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE NEW MEXICO INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION.

IT IS FAIR TO SAY YOU HAVE BEEN AT LEAST THE LAST SIX YEARS FIGHTING AGAINST THE PROPOSED DIVERSION OF THE GILA RIVER.

WHAT IS SO SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THE ISE'S RECENT VOTE ON THE GILA?

IT REVERSED 16 YEARS OF EFFORT BY THAT AGENCY TO TRY AND MAKE SOMETHING WORK OUT OF THIS FEDERAL AUTHORIZATION THEY HAVE TO BUY THE WATER AND DEVELOP IT IN SOUTHWEST NEW MEXICO.

BUY WATER IN ARIZONA, TRADE THAT WATER THEY BOUGHT IN ARIZONA FOR DIVERSIONS FROM THE GILA AND MAKE SENSE OUT OF POLICING WATER AND WHO WOULD PAY FOR IT IN SOUTHWEST NEW MEXICO.

AND NOTHING MAKES SENSE.

Laura: PEOPLE SAY, INCLUDING ATTORNEY FOR THE NEW MEXICO CAP ENTITY, PETE DOMENICI, JR., I HAVE HEARD PEOPLE SAY THAT IF NEW MEXICO DOESN'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS WATER, WE LOSE IT TO ARIZONA, TO OTHER POTENTIAL USERS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

AND CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE WATER THAT WAS ALLOCATED FOR THE STATE THROUGH THE 2004 ARIZONA WATER SETTLEMENT ACT.

IS THAT ACTUALLY WET WATER THAT IS FLOWING THROUGH THE RIVER?

Gaume: THEORETICALLY IT IS BUT I THINK IT IS MORE SIMILAR TO VIRGA.

YOU CAN TALK ABOUT IT, THINK ABOUT IT, YOU MIGHT EVEN BE ABLE TO SEE IT, BUT IT IS OUT OF OUR GRASP.

Laura: THIS HAS BEEN A VERY LONG PROJECT, AN EXPENSIVE PROJECT AND A VERY LUCRATIVE PROJECT FOR ATTORNEYS AND ENGINEERING FIRMS AND SOME FORMER STATE OFFICIALS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY THE STATE HAS ALREADY SPENT OF THIS FEDERAL SUBSIDY, WHERE THAT MONEY HAS GONE AND WHO HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE WINNERS AND LOSERS ALONG THE WAY?

GAUME: WELL, WE CAN TALK ABOUT SO-CALLED WINNERS FIRST.

THE STATE HAS SPENT 16 MILLION OVER 15 YEARS TRYING TO PLAN THIS BUDGET.

THAT IS ALL THEY HAVE DONE.

THIS IS SO-CALLED PLANNING.

IT IS NOT REALLY EVEN PLANNING BECAUSE THEY AVOIDED ALL OF THE INVESTIGATIONS THAT WOULD LEAD THEM TO NEGATIVE ANSWERS.

WINNERS ARE THE CONSULTANTS WHO AGREED TO REPORT BACK TO THE ISE WHAT THEY WANTED TO HEAR.

MORE RECENTLY, PETE DOMENICI, THE LAWYER FOR THE NEW MEXICO CAP ENTITY HAS MADE OVER HALF A MILLION.

FORMER STATE ENGINEER WHO STEERED THIS PROJECT WHEN HE WAS STATE ENGINEER, HIS FIRM, I THINK, HAS MADE ABOUT HALF A MILLION DOLLARS.

OTHER CONSULTANTS THAT WORK FOR THE ISE HAVE CLEARED OVER A MILLION.

AND THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION JUST PAID 5.3 MILLION-DOLLARS TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO PREPARE THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT.

AND MOST OF THAT I THINK WENT TO CONTRACTORS AND THEY DID -- IT IS THE WORST DOCUMENT I HAVE EVER SEEN LAURA WITH REGARD TO VERACITY AND TRUTH AND SCIENCE AND FACTS.

EVEN SO, THEY CONCLUDED, BASED ON THEIR TOTALLY BIASED ANALYSIS, THAT THIS PROJECT WOULD NEVER FLY.

Laura: THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY AND A LOT OF TIME.

SO, THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF PROPOSALS TO DAM THE GILA RIVER OVER DECADES.

THIS WASN'T THE FIRST ONE.

DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE THE LAST ONE?

Gaume: I DON'T KNOW.

ALL OF THE PROPOSALS, RECENT PROPOSALS STEM FROM THE 1968 POLITICAL AUTHORIZATION AND THOSE ATTEMPTS WERE HOOKER DAM, HONOR DAM, A DEVELOPMENT IN MEGAS CREEK AND NOW THIS LATEST EPISODE WHICH WENT UP AND DOWN THE RIVER SEARCHING FOR A LOCATION THAT WOULD WORK WITH NO SUCCESS.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SET ASIDE THE ORIGINAL HOOKER DAM SITE IN 1918.

AND, SOON AFTER THAT CONCLUDED THAT THERE WAS NO WATER AVAILABLE FOR DIVERSION.

IT IS TOTALLY IMPRACTICAL TO DEVELOP THE WATER BUT TO SAY THAT WE HAVE LEARNED OUR LESSONS AS A SOCIETY OR THE PROPONENTS HAVE LEARNED FROM THEIR AWFUL EXPERIENCE AND THEIR HUGE EXPENDITURES AND FAILURE, I DON'T THINK THEY LEARNED A THING.

Laura: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

IT IS A FAR CRY TO BE ON ZOOM FROM WHERE WE WERE LAST SUMMER.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.