>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, A HISTORIC APOLOGY.

AFTER PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN'S FORMAL ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF THE HARMS OF INDIAN BOARDING SCHOOLS, A DESCENDANT OF ONE OF THOSE STUDENTS SHARES HER EMOTIONS AND THE WORK AHEAD.

>> Tolino: THE BEFORE AND AFTER IMAGE IS WHAT WAS PRODUCED.

SO, PART OF THAT PROPAGANDA, AND OFTENTIMES WITH HIS IMAGE OF THE TERM KILL THE INDIAN AND SAVE THE MAN.

>> Lou: AND, END OF AN ERA, THE OUTGOING EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO LOOKS BACK AT HIS WORK PROTECTING CIVIL LIBERTIES FOR THE LAST 24 YEARS NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DiVIZIO.

IN OCTOBER, PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN FORMALLY APOLOGIZED ON BEHALF OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR A DEADLY POLICY THAT FORCED GENERATIONS OF NATIVE AMERICAN CHILDREN INTO BOARDING SCHOOLS DURING THE 19th AND 20th CENTURIES.

IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES, CORRESPONDENT ANTONIA GONZALES SPEAKS WITH TWO NEW MEXICANS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S APOLOGY AND THEIR WORK ADVOCATING FOR THE STUDENTS, FAMILIES, AND TRIBES HARMED BY BOARDING SCHOOL POLICIES.

BOOKENDING TODAY'S SHOW, WE'LL HEAR FROM A STUDENT AND AVID READER RAINIER LONG.

WHEN HIS SCHOOL, CARLOS GILBERT ELEMENTARY IN SANTA FE, CUT LIBRARY TIME TO MAKE ROOM FOR A TECHNOLOGY CLASS, THE 6th GRADER ORGANIZED A SERIES OF ESCALATING PROTESTS.

RAINIER TELLS OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS WHY HE BELIEVES TIME SPENT IN A SCHOOL LIBRARY IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS ANY OTHER CLASS SUBJECT.

BUT WE BEGIN WITH A ONE-ON-ONE INTERVIEW WITH THE OUTGOING EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO PETER SIMONSON.

IN THIS IN THE VIEW THAT FIRST AIRED IN JULY, SIMONSON TALKS WITH EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR ABOUT HOW CIVIL RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES HAVE SHIFTED IN THE STATE AND THE NATION DURING HIS 24 YEARS IN THE POSITION.

>> Jeff: PETER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> SIMONSON: I'M SO HAPPY TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

>> JEFF: ABSOLUTELY.

YOU STARTED AT THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO A LITTLE LESS THAN 24 YEARS AGO.

SO I'D LIKE TO BEGIN BY ASKING WHAT WERE THE BIG ISSUES DRIVING THE ADVOCACY WORK OF THE ORGANIZATION IN THOSE FIRST FEW YEARS FOR YOU?

>> SIMONSON: WELL, YOU KNOW, FOR ME JUST THAT FIRST YEAR WAS JUST LEARNING HOW TO DO THE JOB.

IT WASN'T ALL THAT LONG AFTER THAT OF COURSE SEPTEMBER 11TH HAPPENED.

THE WORLD CHANGED.

OUR ORGANIZATION CHANGED.

YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER WE HAD A NEW EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AT THE NATIONAL OFFICE WHO IS STILL OUR EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR.

ANTHONY ROMERO.

ALL THOSE FOLKS AT THE NATIONAL OFFICE WERE WORKING FROM THEIR HOMES TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY WERE GOING TO MAINTAIN THE ORGANIZATION AND HELP THE STATE AFFILIATES RESPOND TO THE SITUATION THAT WAS UNFOLDING.

A LOT OF THE WORK THEN WAS JUST EDUCATING THE PUBLIC ABOUT THE THREATS THAT THE USA PATRIOT ACT REPRESENTED, AND THE HOMELAND SECURITY ACT AFTER THAT, AND THE VARIOUS PIECES OF LEGISLATION AROUND ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE.

SO MUCH OF THE COUNTRY WAS SO FOCUSED ON THE NATIONAL SCENE, AND NOT JUST OF COURSE THE SORT OF SURVEILLANCE QUESTIONS THAT WERE HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY ITSELF, BUT THEN EVERYTHING THAT WAS HAPPENING OVERSEAS.

AND THE BREAKING OF THE NEWS THAT THERE WAS THIS TORTURE PROGRAM AND OVERSEAS PRISONS LIKE ABU GHRAIB.

>> JEFF: BLACK SITES.

CIA BLACK SITES.

>> SIMONSON: EXACTLY.

AND THE ACLU IS INSTRUMENTAL IN AIRING ALL THE DOCUMENTS THAT SHOWED THAT WE CLEARLY HAD THIS TORTURE PROGRAM AND THAT IT WAS ENDORSED BY THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT.

GOING RIGHT UP TO THE PRESIDENT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I CAN REMEMBER A LOT OF MY TIME THEN AND WE WERE JUST A VERY SMALL ORGANIZATION OF THREE, MAYBE FOUR, PEOPLE THAT WAS GETTING OUT INTO THE COMMUNITY AND ORGANIZING AROUND THOSE ISSUES.

WE HAD A NUMBER OF CITIES IN NEW MEXICO THAT PASSED RESOLUTIONS FORMALLY OPPOSING THE USA PATRIOT ACT.

PRECLUDING THOSE CITIES FROM IMPLEMENTING ANYTHING SIMILAR, ANY SORT OF SIMILAR SURVEILLANCE LAWS.

THERE'S THAT WORK THAT WAS HAPPENING.

AND THEN THERE WAS WORK HAPPENING IN THE LEGISLATURE AS WELL.

AS ALWAYS, WE WERE WORKING ON THE QUESTIONS AROUND EFFORTS TO TRY TO INCREASE SENTENCING FOR PEOPLE GOING INTO PRISON AND JAIL.

BUT WHAT REALLY STANDS OUT IN MY MEMORY IS RESPONDING TO THIS JUST SEA CHANGE IN THE COUNTRY AS OUR CONCEPTS, OUR EXPECTATIONS ABOUT PRIVACY WERE JUST BEING FUNDAMENTALLY ALTERED BY A GOVERNMENT THAT WAS REALLY TRYING TO SEIZE SOME AUTHORITIES THAT IT HADN'T HAD BEFORE.

>> JEFF: YEAH, THE WAR ON TERROR.

THINKING BACK ON THE RIPPLE EFFECTS OF THAT, IT'S TERRIFYING TO THIS DAY FOR ME TO THINK ABOUT.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT LOT OF PEOPLE CONCEPTUALIZE OR THINK ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES IN THE CONTEXT OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION, SO MAYBE LET'S START THERE A LITTLE BIT FIRST.

HOW HAS THE LANDSCAPE CHANGED NATIONALLY IN THE LAST 25 YEARS?

>> SIMONSON: WELL, THAT'S A PRETTY WIDE SCOPE OF TIME.

I THINK AS TIME HAS GONE ON WE'VE REALLY SEEN HOW CHANGES IN THE MAKEUP OF THE FEDERAL COURTS HAVE MADE THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY, THE FEDERAL COURT SYSTEM, A MUCH MORE HOSTILE PLACE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS CASES.

CASES THAT WE TYPICALLY WOULD BRING.

AND ALSO SORT OF, IN TERMS OF LEGAL DOCTRINE, LIKE THE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY DOCTRINE HAS MADE THAT ALL THAT MORE DIFFICULT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS PLAINTIFFS TO GET THEIR CASES HEARD BY A JURY OR IN A BENCH TRIAL OF SOME SORT.

SO, YOU KNOW, AS TIME HAS GONE ON NATIONALLY AND WE LOCALLY HAVE REALLY STARTED TO LOOK AT HOW CAN WE BEGIN TO FIND SIMILAR WAYS OF VINDICATING FOLKS RIGHTS IN THE STATE COURT SYSTEM.

UNDER THE STATE CONSTITUTION.

OF COURSE, WE HERE IN NEW MEXICO ARE EXTRAORDINARILY FORTUNATE TO NOW HAVE A PROVISION IN STATE LAW THAT ALLOWS A NEW MEXICAN TO GO INTO COURT, CLAIM THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS ABUSED THEIR RIGHTS UNDER A STATE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION, AND SEEK COMPENSATORY DAMAGE AND ACTUALLY ATTORNEYS FEES IN TRYING TO VINDICATE THEIR RIGHTS THAT WAY.

>> JEFF: AND NO QUALIFIED IMMUNITY UNDER THE STATE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

>> SIMONSON: EXACTLY.

>> JEFF: I KNOW THAT WAS A BIG STICKING POINT.

>> SIMONSON: HUGE.

HUGE.

AND YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TAKE A STEP BACK AND YOU LOOK AT SORT OF THE TRACK RECORD OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY AROUND THE COUNTRY, I MEAN IT'S JUST -- SOME OF THE CASES JUST BOGGLE THE IMAGINATION THAT SEEMINGLY PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS OF ABUSE THAT WERE BEING BROUGHT TO THE COURT ARE TOSSED OUT BECAUSE THE PARTICULAR FACTS DON'T MATCH THE FACTS OF A PREVIOUS CASE.

SO, I WOULD SAY THAT'S PROBABLY BEEN THE MAJOR CHANGE FOR US IS SEEING HOW THE FEDERAL COURTS HAVE BECOME SO -- SUCH A DIFFICULT PLACE TO PURSUE CIVIL RIGHTS CLAIMS.

EITHER ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS, OR ON A MORE SYSTEMIC BASIS.

AND NOW LOOKING TO THE STATE COURTS TO TRY TO TAKE OVER SOME OF THAT ROLE.

>> JEFF: THAT'S A GOOD TRANSITION, ACTUALLY.

I'VE BEEN HAVING CONVERSATIONS, OF COURSE, WITH YOU AND OTHERS AT THE ACLU FOR A COUPLE OF DECADES NOW.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE HEARD WITH MORE FREQUENCY IN THE LAST HANDFUL OF YEARS IS THAT OUR STATE CONSTITUTION DOES AFFORD GREATER PROTECTIONS THAN ITS FEDERAL SIBLING, RIGHT?

HOW SHOULD NEW MEXICANS SORT OF CONCEPTUALIZE THAT NOTION WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR CIVIL RIGHT AND LIBERTIES?

>> SIMONSON: I THINK SOME OF THAT STORY IS STILL BEING TOLD.

YOU KNOW, WITH THE PASSAGE OF THE NEW MEXICO CIVIL RIGHTS ACT, WE'RE ANTICIPATING THAT WE ARE GOING TO AND ARE ALREADY STARTING TO SEE MORE AND MORE CASES BEING FILED UNDER STATE CONSTITUTIONAL CLAIMS.

AND THAT LAW NOW BEING WRITTEN WHEN IT HAS -- BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT PROVISION IN STATE LAW, IT HASN'T BEEN USED THE WAY IT COULD BE AND SHOULD BE AND SHALL BE USED NOW.

YOU KNOW, GENERALLY, FROM THE LANGUAGE OF IT, AND THE FEW CASES THAT WE'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN, THE PROVISIONS TEND TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE EXPANSIVE.

FOR EXAMPLE, ON RELIGIOUS LIBERTY AND RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENT, THAT'S COME INTO PLAY IN SOME OF THE CASES.

A CASE THAT WAS LITIGATED BY THE ACLU LONG BEFORE I WAS ACTUALLY INVOLVED WITH THE ORGANIZATION THAT STRUCK DOWN THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF A BERNALILLO COUNTY SEAL THAT HAD VARIOUS KINDS OF RELIGIOUS SYMBOLISM INTERTWINED IN IT.

AND YOU KNOW, I DON'T REMEMBER THE DETAILS OF THAT OPINION, BUT IN MY MEMORY PART OF WHAT THAT CASE HUNG ON WAS IN FACT THE VERY LANGUAGE OF OUR STATE CONSTITUTION.

AND THERE ARE OTHER PLACES IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION WHERE THAT'S TRUE AS WELL.

WHERE THE DRAFTERS OF OUR STATE CONSTITUTION SAW WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION AND THOUGHT SOMETHING MORE EXPANSIVE SHOULD APPLY HERE IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

>> JEFF: YEAH, YOU KNOW I THINK ABOUT SOME OF THE EARLY POLICE VIOLENCE CASES THAT I WOULD HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT YEARS AGO, AND LEARNING ABOUT THE FOURTH AMENDMENT ANALOG IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION AND HOW IT IS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE EXPANSIVE THAN WHAT'S IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.

YOU MENTIONED THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT AND YOU'RE WELCOME TO TALK SOME MORE ABOUT THAT.

I THINK THAT WAS QUITE A VICTORY FOR THE ACLU.

WHAT HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE OTHER REALLY BIG ACCOMPLISHMENTS AT THE NEW MEXICO AFFILIATE IN THE TIME YOU'VE BEEN THERE?

>> SIMONSON: WELL, I WANT TO SAY FIRST OF ALL NEW MEXICO CIVIL RIGHTS ACT, WE HAD A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT HAND TO PLAY IN PASSING THAT LEGISLATION, BUT WE WERE BY NO MEANS THE ONLY ACTOR IN THAT.

WE HAD LEGISLATIVE CHAMPIONS LIKE BRIAN EGOLF WHO WERE RIGHT AT THE FOREFRONT OF THAT AND TOOK SOME PRETTY HEAVY HITS FROM THE MEDIA AND OPPONENTS OF THE LEGISLATION IN TRYING TO GET THAT ACROSS THE FINISH LINE.

I WANT TO GIVE THEM ALL THE CREDIT THEY DO -- THEY'RE DUE, BECAUSE OUR PART IN IT WAS JUST A PART.

AND THAT'S TRUE OF ALL THE WINS WE'VE HAD OVER THE YEARS.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN A COALITION EFFORT.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN A COLLECTIVE EFFORT WITH OTHER ALLIES IN THE COMMUNITY.

YOU KNOW I THINK ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE, A CASE THAT WAS LITIGATED BEFORE I WAS ACTUALLY ON WITH THE ORGANIZATION.

NARAL V. JOHNSON, A CASE THAT WAS BROUGHT AGAINST THE JOHNSON ADMINISTRATION THAT ESTABLISHED THAT HERE IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO STATE MEDICAID FUNDS WILL BE USED TO PROVIDE ABORTION CARE.

CASES THAT -- ONE OF THE GREATEST VICTORIES I THINK WE HAD DURING THE TIME I HAVE BEEN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR WAS THE ACHIEVING THE FREEDOM TO MARRY FOR SAME-SEX COUPLES IN THIS STATE.

A CASE THAT WAS BROUGHT TO THE STATE SUPREME COURT, BUT WAS PARALLELED BY AN EDUCATIONAL EFFORT THAT EQNM AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS AROUND THE STATE REALLY WENT TO THE MAT ON AND HELPED TO SHIFT PUBLIC OPINION, FRANKLY, STATEWIDE THAT I THINK SET THE STAGE FOR THAT, FOR THE COURT TO RULE THE WAY IT DID.

THAT HAPPENED BEFORE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT -- MAYBE NOT A FULL YEAR, BUT SOMETHING LESS THAN A YEAR BEFORE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT RULED ON A SIMILAR QUESTION.

GOSH, YOU KNOW REPEAL OF THE DEATH PENALTY IN 2009 WAS A HUGE VICTORY.

AGAIN, A BIG COALITION VICTORY.

THERE WAS A SPECIFIC COALITION TO REPEAL THE DEATH PENALTY THAT LED THAT EFFORT.

MORE RECENTLY, I THINK SOME OF THE REAL VICTORIES WE'VE SEEN, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE NEW MEXICO CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

BUT EVEN MORE RECENTLY THAN THAT, PASSING LAWS THAT SHIELD PEOPLE SEEKING REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE AND GENDER AFFIRMING CARE FROM MALICIOUS EFFORTS TO PROSECUTE THEM FROM OTHER STATES THAN OURS THAT PROVIDE CERTAIN KINDS OF PRIVACY PROTECTIONS.

THOSE ARE SIGNIFICANT VICTORIES.

AND YOU CAN'T FORGET THAT WE ACTUALLY HAD A LAW ON THE BOOKS NOT THAT LONG AGO THAT WOULD HAVE MADE ABORTION A CRIME ONCE DOBBS WAS RULED ON AND ROE WAS OVERTURNED.

AND THROUGH A COALITION EFFORT WE'RE ABLE TO GET THAT REMOVED FROM THE BOOKS.

REAL CREDIT TO THE FOLKS IN OUR ORGANIZATION, OUR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS LAWYERS, IN PARTICULAR, AS WELL AS OUR OTHER ALLIES IN KNOWING THAT WAS POSSIBLY A THREAT AND THAT WE GOT THAT TAKEN CARE OF BEFORE THE COURT EVER -- THE SUPREME COURT EVER RULED ON DOBBS.

>> JEFF: WHAT RIGHT NOW DO YOU THINK ARE THE TWO OR THREE BIGGEST CHALLENGES FROM A CIVIL RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES PERSPECTIVE FACING ALBUQUERQUE AND NEW MEXICO?

>> SIMONSON: YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN VERY INVOLVED IN EFFORTS TO REFORM THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

AND MANY FOLKS MAY KNOW THAT THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS NOW SORT OF ON SUNSETTING ITS CONSENT DECREE WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

IT IS TRUE THAT THEY'VE COME INTO COMPLIANCE WITH MANY OF THE PROVISIONS OF THAT CONSENT DECREE, AND YET FOR THE TRAINING, FOR ALL THE POLICY CHANGES, FOR ALL THE IMPROVEMENTS IN THE WAY THAT SPECIAL TACTICAL UNITS ARE DEPLOYED, WE STILL SEE A PRETTY HIGH RATE OF USE OF FORCE THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNITY.

I THINK ONE OF THE UNTOLD QUESTIONS -- ONE OF THE UNTOLD STORIES AROUND CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ME IS WHAT DOES IT REALLY TAKE TO FULLY REFORM POLICING IN THIS COUNTRY TO SUCH A DEGREE THAT PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TO FEAR THAT IF THEY'RE CALLING THE POLICE ON BEHALF OF ONE OF THEIR LOVED ONES WHO IS, FOR EXAMPLE, SUFFERING A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS, THAT THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TO WORRY THAT THEY MAY WIND UP BEING SHOT OR THE VICTIM OF SOME USE OF FORCE?

WE HAVEN'T FIGURED THAT OUT YET, EITHER IN THIS STATE, EITHER IN THIS CITY OR NATIONALLY.

I JUST DON'T THINK THAT THE RIGHT MIX, THE RIGHT CONSTELLATION OF REFORMS HAS BEEN DISCOVERED YET TO TRANSFORM POLICING.

>> JEFF: I WANT TO ASK A QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

I DON'T WANT TO ASK YOU NECESSARILY WHETHER YOU THINK THIS TEN-YEAR PROJECT HAS WORKED.

I THINK THAT'S KIND OF A SUCKER QUESTION, ACTUALLY.

BUT I WANT TO ASK WHAT YOU THINK OF THE TOOL.

THE PROCESS THROUGH WHICH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN COME IN AND CONDUCT ONE OF THESE BIG INVESTIGATIONS, THEN GO FORCE YOU IN COURT TO MAKE THESE CHANGES AND REFORMS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE TOOL TEN YEARS INTO THIS?

IS IT AIMED PROPERLY AT WHAT THE PROBLEM REALLY IS?

>> SIMONSON: WELL, NO.

I THINK -- I HAVE TWO RESPONSES TO THAT.

THE FIRST WOULD BE I THINK BECAUSE WE REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE MIX OF REFORMS IS, WHAT THE MIX OF TRANSFORMATIONS IN POLICING ARE THAT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO RESULT IN A TRULY CONSTITUTIONAL, TRULY PROFESSIONAL, TRULY HUMANE POLICING DEPARTMENT, THAT WE CAN LEAVE THAT OPTION OFF THE TABLE.

THAT WE CAN LEAVE THAT TOOL OFF THE TABLE.

THAT SAID, IT ALSO SEEMS TO ME FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN THAT IT'S CRITICAL THAT WE ARE MOVING AS MANY OF THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES FOR NEGOTIATING, FOR MANAGING DANGEROUS CRIMINAL ENCOUNTERS OUT IN THE PUBLIC, OUT OF THE HANDS OF ARMED OFFICERS AND INTO THE HANDS OF OTHER PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE BETTER SUITED TO DO THAT WORK AND WHO AREN'T GOING TO BE ARMED WITH A GUN AND ARE GOING TO TRY TO SOLVE THE ISSUE AT THE END OF A FIREARM.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW OBVIOUSLY, THE CONSENT DECREE DID NOT CREATE THE ALBUQUERQUE COMMUNITY SAFETY DEPARTMENT.

THAT DEPARTMENT'S HAD ITS ISSUES, HAD ITS STRUGGLES, I UNDERSTAND.

BUT IT IS HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, IN MY VIEW.

I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO FUNDAMENTALLY IS REDUCE THE NUMBER OF ENCOUNTERS ON THE STREET BETWEEN ARMED OFFICERS AND THE PUBLIC.

I THINK ACTUALLY MOST OFFICERS WOULD AGREE WITH THAT.

I DON'T THINK THEY WANT TO BE IN THE POSITION OF BEING SOCIAL WORKERS AND SUBSTANCE ABUSE COUNSELORS, AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.

I THINK THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE MIX THAT THE CONSENT DECREE OBVIOUSLY DID NOT REALLY TOUCH.

>> Jeff: ANY OTHER THOUGHTS ON BIG CHALLENGES BEFORE WE TALK SOME ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION?

>> SIMONSON: THERE ARE BIG CHALLENGES COMING UP.

WE CAN TALK MORE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE SOME OF THEM ARE AT A VERY LARGE LEVEL.

SOME OF THEM ARE AT A COMMUNITY LEVEL.

I THINK WE AS AN ORGANIZATION TRY TO BE AS STRATEGIC AND USE OUR RESOURCES JUST AS EFFICIENTLY AS POSSIBLE AND FOCUSED A WAY AS POSSIBLE.

IT'S NOT BEEN ONE OF OUR STRATEGIC PRIORITIES TO FOCUS ON THE QUESTION OF HOMELESSNESS AND THE UNHOUSED COMMUNITY, AND HOW THEY'RE BEING TREATED OUT IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

IT'S BECOMING CLEAR TO ME THAT THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO ADOPT IN THE NEAR FUTURE BECAUSE NOT ONLY ARE WE SEEING MORE AND MORE EFFORTS BY STATE AND LOCAL ENTITIES TRYING TO ESSENTIALLY ENFORCE THOSE COMMUNITIES OUT OF EXISTENCE, ENFORCE THEM TO SPACES OUTSIDE CITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, BUT THAT POPULATION IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO GROW.

AND THE PROBLEM IS ONLY GOING TO GET MORE VOLATILE AS TIME GOES ON.

SO, THAT TO ME IS ONE OF THE HUGE CHALLENGES.

IT GETS US INTO QUESTIONS THAT ARE FAR BEYOND THE REALM OF JUST CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES BECAUSE NOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES AND SUBSTANCE USE SERVICES.

LIKE ALL OF OUR ISSUES, THERE ARE ROOT CAUSES TO THE THINGS WE OFTENTIMES FOCUS JUST ON THE CIVIL RIGHTS ASPECT OF, BUT REALLY TO GET AT THE CORE ISSUE YOU REALLY DO NEED TO GET TO THE ROOT CAUSES OF THOSE QUESTIONS.

>> Simonson: FIRST AMENDMENT, FREE SPEECH, RELIGIOUS LIBERTY, RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENT, THOSE ARE ALL OUR BREAD AND BUTTER ISSUES STILL NOW AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN OVER THE MORE THAN 100-YEAR HISTORY OF THE ORGANIZATION.

BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT WE CARRY OUT THAT MISSION MORE AND MORE WITH AN EYE TO WHAT ARE THE REAL NEEDS OF OUR COMMUNITY, AND PARTICULARLY THE NEEDS OF COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY DISENFRANCHISED.

>> Lou: WE'LL HEAR THE SECOND PART OF JEFF'S DISCUSSION WITH THE OUTGOING EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO IN LESS THAN 20 MINUTES.

RIGHT NOW, WE TURN TO A TOPIC WE'VE COVERED FOR YEARS, RECONCILING OUR STATE AND COUNTRY'S ROLE IN NATIVE AMERICAN BOARDING SCHOOLS.

THOSE SCHOOLS OPERATED FOR DECADES AS MEANS OF FORCED ASSIMILATION, TEARING FAMILIES APART, AND IN SOME CASES LEADING TO THE DEATHS OF NATIVE AMERICAN CHILDREN.

EARLIER THIS YEAR, PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN DELIVERED A HISTORIC APOLOGY ON BEHALF OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO NATIVE AMERICANS AND ALASKAN NATIVES FOR THE HARM THOSE SCHOOLS CAUSED FAMILIES FOR GENERATIONS.

INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED THE IMPORTANCE OF THAT STEP, BUT THEY REMAIN FOCUSED ON CONTINUED ACTION.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS CORRESPONDENT ANTONIA GONZALES SITS DOWN WITH TWO NEW MEXICANS WORKING AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL ON THOSE HEALING EFFORTS.

>> Antonia: JOANNIE, AND GERILYN, WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Dr. Suina: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Tolino: AH HEE'.

>> Antonia: JOANNIE, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN OFFICIALLY APOLOGIZED ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT FOR THE HARMS DONE TO NATIVE PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY FOR FEDERAL INDIAN BOARDING SCHOOL POLICIES?

>> Dr. Suina: SO, MY REACTION WAS THAT THIS IS A GREAT FIRST INITIAL STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

I THINK THAT EVERYTHING WE'VE SEEN HAPPEN ACROSS THE SPAN OF THIS YEAR FROM VOLUME TWO OF THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR'S FEDERAL REPORT INVESTIGATING FEDERAL INDIAN BOARDING SCHOOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WAS A FOLLOW-UP OF THAT AND THE CONTINUED MOMENTUM THAT'S HAPPENING THERE'S GREAT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT AROUND HOW THIS COUNTRY HAS CONTINUED TO ERASE ITS GENOCIDAL PAST.

>> Antonia: GERILYN, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?

>> Tolino: I THINK AS A DESCENDANT IT MADE ME PROUD.

IT WAS DEFINITELY TIME.

I TAKE THAT APOLOGY AS, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST STEP AS WELL AS HONORING THE ANCESTORS, THE FIRST PEOPLES WHO EXPERIENCED THAT AND HAD TO ENDURE THAT HARDSHIP WAY BACK.

AS A DESCENDANT, I THINK ABOUT THAT AND REFLECT ON, YOU KNOW, THOSE HARD TIMES.

SO, IT WAS VERY EMOTIONAL FOR ME.

>> Antonia: JOANNIE, IT IS VERY CLOSE TO NATIVE PEOPLE ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, LOWER 48 UP INTO ALASKA.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT TOUCHES NATIVE PEOPLE EVERYWHERE.

THE LEGACY OF THESE BOARDING SCHOOLS.

SO, CAN YOU SHARE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HAVING APOLOGY COMING FROM THE TOP LEADER OF THE UNITED STATES?

WHAT'S ITS SIGNIFICANCE?

>> Dr. Suina: RIGHT, SO THIS GUT-WRENCHING HISTORY OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND ITS CONTINUED FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY TO NATIVE PEOPLES, I THINK, IS IT NEEDS TO BE AT THE CONTINUED FOREFRONT IN EVERY PRESIDENTIAL AGENDA MOVING FORWARD.

AS OUR NATIVE PEOPLE ARE CONTINUING TO TAKE THOSE STEPS TO ACKNOWLEDGE OUR OWN PAINFUL HISTORY AND WE ARE WORKING TOWARDS HEALING OUR PEOPLE FOR THE SAKE OF OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS, THE NEXT MOVES THAT COME WITH THIS ARE THE ACTION PIECES.

AND KNOWING THAT OUR NATIVE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO PLACES LIKE CARLISLE TO SHERMAN, ALL ACROSS THIS COUNTRY AND NOT RETURNED HOME FROM SCHOOL.

THEIR STORIES DESERVE TO BE TOLD.

THEY DESERVE TO BE HONORED.

AND THEIR FAMILIES DESERVE TO KNOW THE WHEREABOUTS AND LOCATIONS OF THEIR GRAVES AND UNMARKED GRAVES AND THAT'S A PART OF THE WORK THAT WE'RE CURRENTLY DOING AT THE COALITION.

>> Antonia: AND CAN YOU SHARE A BIT ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU PERSONALLY, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HAVING THE APOLOGY?

>> Tolino: I WOULD SAY WITHIN MY FAMILY WE'VE BEEN AFFECTED WITH THE POLICIES SINCE THE BEGINNING, SINCE THE TREATY WITH THE NAVAJOS.

AND I AM THE FIRST GENERATION WHO HAS NOT ATTENDED A BOARDING SCHOOL.

SO, IT'S THE GENERATIONS BEFORE ME WHO HAVE ALWAYS HAD TO GO TO THE SCHOOLS.

SO, I THINK ABOUT THAT AND THINK ABOUT HOW I LEARNED OF MY FAMILY'S STORY AND HOW THAT NEEDED TO BE SHARED.

AND THAT FIRST STEP WAS ACKNOWLEDGING.

I THINK THERE A LOT OF TIMES THERE WAS SOME SHAME AND SOME GUILT FROM ALL OF THAT AND NOT KNOWING HOW TO WORK THROUGH THOSE FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS.

SO, WHEN I LEARNED ABOUT IT I KEPT IT INSIDE FOR A LONG TIME AND STARTED TO IDENTIFY AND LOOK UP HOW IT WAS DOCUMENTED.

SO, I KNOW A LOT OF IT WASN'T SHARED.

THERE'S THE STORIES WITHIN OUR FAMILY AND WHAT WAS OFTEN RESEARCHED.

SO, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE FAMILIES ARE COMING FORWARD AND SHARING THAT.

SO, THAT WAS WHAT I THINK IS VERY IMPORTANT.

>> Antonia: PRESIDENT BIDEN'S LAST TERM HERE HE ANNOUNCED AT THE TRIBAL NATION SUMMIT, HIS VERY LAST TRIBAL NATION SUMMIT WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION, HE WAS GOING TO CREATE THE CARLISLE INDIAN INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL AS A MEMORIAL.

YOU HAVE A PERSONAL CONNECTION TO CARLISLE.

CAN YOU SHARE A LITTLE BIT?

>> Tolino: YES.

MY GREAT GRANDFATHER, HIS NAME WAS HASTIN TOHAAI, THAT WAS HIS NAVAJO NAME.

HE IS ONE OF THE 12 NAVAJO DIN É YOUTH WHO WERE SENT TO CARLISLE IN 1882.

THAT WAS IN RESPONSE TO THE TREATY THAT WAS ESTABLISHED AFTER THE LONG WALK AND THE ARRANGEMENTS MADE TO HONOR THAT WAS SENDING THE STUDENTS TO CARLISLE.

HE WAS ONE OF THE 12, ALONG WITH TWO OF CHIEF MANUELITO'S SONS WHO WERE SENT.

AND HE WAS THERE ABOUT A TOTAL OF FOUR YEARS.

WHILE HE WAS THERE HE HAD TWO PLACEMENTS.

HE WAS AN OLDER YOUTH, SO HE WAS ABLE TO PICK UP ENGLISH AND SOME WRITING, AND THEN HE WAS PLACED WITH TWO FAMILIES IN TWO DIFFERENT COUNTIES IN PENNSYLVANIA.

HE RETURNED SPEAKING ENGLISH AND BEING ABLE TO WRITE IN ENGLISH AND HE SERVED AS A SCOUT IN THE EARLY TIMES.

AND HE HAD BEEN PLACED AT THE FORT WINGATE, ACTUAL FORT, THERE'S STILL THE ENTRANCE.

IF YOU'RE DRIVING ON THE FREEWAY, YOU CAN SEE THAT IRON FENCE THAT STILL REMAINS AND IT STILL HAS THAT.

SO, THAT'S WHERE HE WAS PLACED THEREAFTER.

BUT OUR FAMILY IS ORIGINALLY FROM MA'II T H Y TLIZH, COYOTE CANYON, NEW MEXICO.

>> Antonia: CAN YOU SHARE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE IMAGE OF YOUR GRANDFATHER?

>> Tolino: YES, MY GRANDFATHER'S IMAGE IS WIDELY USED AND ITS ICONIC IN THAT IT WAS PART OF A POSTCARD THAT WAS USED WHEN GENERAL PRATT MADE HIS REPORT TO CONGRESS IDENTIFYING HOW THESE BOARDING SCHOOLS WERE WORKING.

SO, THE BEFORE AND AFTER IMAGE IS WHAT WAS PRODUCED.

SO PART OF THAT PROPAGANDA TO SHOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS SUCCESSFUL.

AND OFTENTIMES WITH HIS IMAGE THE TERM KILL THE INDIAN AND SAVE THE MAN IS USED TOGETHER.

SO, I THINK ABOUT THAT AND I THINK ABOUT WITHIN OUR OWN FAMILY AND IF THAT HAPPENED.

WHEN MY GRANDFATHER RETURNED TO THE RESERVATION HE PICKED UP WHAT HE HAD ALREADY BEEN INITIATED INTO AND THAT WAS BEING A HEALER.

HE WORKED TO CONTINUE TO BE A MEDICINE PERSON.

I THINK ABOUT IT, AND I THINK ABOUT HOW IN MAKING THAT JOURNEY HE'S ACTUALLY A WARRIOR BECAUSE HE TOOK -- YOU KNOW, DID SOMETHING THAT WAS NEVER REALLY PLANNED.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT HE ENDURED AND TOOK THAT EXPERIENCE AND MADE IT INTO SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, COULD HELP OTHERS BY LEARNING, BY KNOWING, AND COMING BACK AND SAYING THIS IS WHAT WE CAN POTENTIALLY FACE.

IT'S JUST HARD NOT REALLY BEING ABLE TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.

I THINK ABOUT THAT.

AND I DO, THROUGH PRAYER AND CEREMONY, MAKE THOSE OFFERINGS AND THINK ABOUT THAT.

>> Antonia: AND YOU'VE BOTH BEEN TO CARLISLE AND VISITED THE SCHOOL.

FOR YOU, WHAT DID IT MEAN WHEN YOU HEARD THAT BIDEN MADE THIS DESIGNATION.

>> Dr. Suina: HAVING MADE THE JOURNEY TO CARLISLE, ABOUT FIVE TRIPS NOW, IT'S ALWAYS SUCH A SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE.

AND EVEN JUST WALKING THROUGHOUT THE TOWN THERE IN CARLISLE, PENNSYLVANIA, PEOPLE NOTICE THAT YOU'RE DIFFERENT.

SO, I THINK BACK TO OUR RELATIVES WHO ATTENDED THIS SCHOOL, WHAT IT MUST HAVE FELT LIKE FOR THEM.

SO, HEARING THE APOLOGY AND POSITIONING OUR RELATIVES THAT ARE STILL BURIED THERE IN THE CEMETERY.

ONE OF MY OWN RELATIVES FROM COCHITI PUEBLO IS ONE OF THE 180-PLUS CHILDREN THAT ARE STILL THERE.

THIS APOLOGY, AGAIN, IS A GREAT FIRST STEP, AND I THINK THAT ANY KIND OF AWARENESS AROUND HEALING EFFORTS IS A GOOD STEP FORWARD.

>> Antonia: CAN YOU EXPAND ON SOME OF THE HEALING EFFORTS, ESPECIALLY THE NEXT STEPS THAT THE COALITION IS LOOKING TO WORK ON INCLUDING LEGISLATION?

>> Dr. Suina: ABSOLUTELY.

SO, FOR THE PAST FOUR YEARS WE'VE BEEN WORKING TOWARD ESTABLISHING AN ACT THAT WOULD SUPPORT TRUTH AND HEALING AS A WHOLE COMMISSION.

SENATE BILL 1723, HOUSE RESOLUTION 7227 WOULD ESTABLISH THIS COMMISSION.

AND IT WOULD PROVIDE AN INVESTIGATION INTO ALL OF THE BOARDING SCHOOLS THAT WE'VE RECORDED TO DATE, WHICH TOTAL 526.

408 OF THOSE BEING FEDERALLY FUNDED DIRECTLY.

AND 125 OF THOSE REMAINING OPEN AS TRIBALLY-CONTROLLED SCHOOLS.

SO, IN LOOKING AT THIS LEGISLATION GETTING PASSED BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR, WE'RE REALLY HOPEFUL THAT IT CONTINUES TO MOVE FORWARD.

WE HAVE 80 CO-SPONSORS ON THE HOUSE SIDE, 32 ON THE SENATE SIDE, SO IT REALLY JUST NEEDS TO PASS THROUGH ON THE HOUSE FLOOR AND MAKE ITS WAY TO THE PRESIDENT'S DESK.

>> Antonia: ALSO, AMONG HEALING EFFORTS, YOU HEAR FORMER STUDENTS, FAMILY MEMBERS TALK ABOUT THE NEED FOR NATIVE REVITALIZATION AND LANGUAGES AND CULTURES, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TRIED TO STRIP THOSE AWAY.

CAN YOU SHARE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT?

>> Dr. Suina: SURE, WITHIN THE NATIONAL AMERICAN BOARDING SCHOOL HEALING COALITION ONE OF OUR INITIATIVES IS CALLED THE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT.

AS A PART OF IT, WE'VE TAKEN A TOUR ACROSS THE UNITED STATES TO GATHER TESTIMONY FROM SURVIVORS AND HAVE BEGUN AN ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVE OF THEIR STORIES, PHOTOGRAPHING THEM AS WELL AND IT'S JUST CONTINUED TO OPEN UP MORE DOORS TO PATHWAYS FOR HEALING.

>> Antonia: WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT FOR LANGUAGE AND CULTURE REVITALIZATION?

>> Tolino: WITH LANGUAGE, AND THE NATIVE LANGUAGE, THE WORDS SOUND DIFFERENTLY THAN IN ENGLISH.

THERE'S MORE HEART-FELT FEELINGS IN IT.

I THINK THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT THAT AND HOW THE PRAYERS ARE SAID, AND EVEN WHEN IT'S SAID IN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, I CAN FEEL IT IN THAT THERE'S THAT CONNECTION.

SO, IT CAN TAKE ON A DIFFERENT SPIRIT, I GUESS, TO SAY.

>> Antonia: AND WE KNOW THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS ENDING, PRETTY SOON, AND THERE'S GOING TO BE NEW CABINET MEMBERS.

EVEN IN CONGRESS, THERE'S NEW MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

A LOT OF WORK FROM TRIBAL LEADERS AND ORGANIZATIONS THAT YOU'RE A PART OF, KEEP ADVOCATING AND EDUCATING THE NEW ADMINISTRATION AND NEW MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO ARE COMING IN ABOUT NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY, LANGUAGE, CULTURE, BOARDING SCHOOLS, EVERYTHING LIKE THAT.

WHAT'S THE COALITION DOING TO WORK WITH THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION?

>> Dr. Suina: WE'RE CONTINUING TO STRATEGIZE.

AND I THINK AS WE LOOK FORWARD INTO 2025 WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE PARTNERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

SO, OUR PARTNERSHIPS CONTINUE TO REMAIN STRONG.

AND WE'RE REALLY HOPEFUL THAT WE'LL GET OUR BILL PASSED THIS YEAR.

>> Antonia: AND FOR BOTH OF YOU, WHAT ARE YOUR HOPES WHEN IT COMES TO CONTINUING TO BRING UP THE AWARENESS AND THE HEALING EFFORTS?

JOANNIE, GO AHEAD AND GO FIRST.

>> Dr. Suina: SURE.

SO SOME OF MY HOPES WOULD BE THAT AS THIS NATIONAL MONUMENT HAS BEEN DESIGNATED THERE AT CARLISLE, I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO CALL NOT ONLY TO ACTION COMMUNITY ABOUT OUR CHILDREN THAT ARE STILL THERE IN CARLISLE, THAT THEY NEED TO BE BROUGHT HOME.

I THINK THE SECOND PART OF THAT IS THAT THE ARMY WHERE THE CARLISLE PRESENT DAY GROUNDS ARE LOCATED ON THE BARRACKS.

THE ARMY NEEDS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WITHIN THE CEMETERY ITSELF THERE ARE SO MANY WRONG NAMES, DATES, TRIBAL AFFILIATIONS ON HEADSTONES OF THESE CHILDREN WHO WERE TAKEN OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AGO.

AND THEY DESERVE THAT SAME KIND OF HONORING AND RESPECT THAT WE SEE IN OUR OTHER NATIONAL CEMETERIES.

>> Tolino: I THINK FOR ME I THINK ABOUT SHARING THE STORIES AND SHARING HOW WE SURVIVED AND HOW WE THRIVE NOW.

AND TO KEEP -- TO BUILD ON THAT MOMENTUM.

I THINK ABOUT MY GREAT GRANDFATHER AND HOW HIS PHOTO WAS USED IN THE BEGINNING AND HOW IT POSED TO BE THAT THIS IS A SUCCESSFUL TRANSFORMATION.

BUT HIS IMAGE ALONE HAS TRAVELED THIS WORLD.

HE'S BEEN TO PLACES THAT HE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE NEVER THOUGHT HE WOULD GO TO.

SO, TAKING THAT FIRST STEP, BUT AT THE SAME TIME I REALLY WANT TO EMPHASIZE TO HONOR THOSE FAMILIES AND HONOR THOSE STORIES.

MY GRANDFATHER'S STORY IS JUST ONE.

AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO SHARE.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, JUST THAT BLACK AND WHITE IMAGE IS NOT JUST SOME PERSON WHO IS NO LONGER HERE OR WAS, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING OF THE PAST.

I'M HERE BECAUSE OF HIM.

FOR ME, IT'S ABOUT THE SEVEN GENERATIONS AND KEEPING THAT.

AND KNOWING, YOU KNOW, THOSE HARDSHIPS AND LEARNING FROM THAT AND EDUCATING.

YOU KNOW, WITHIN OUR COMMUNITIES AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, ACROSS COUNTRIES, ACROSS INTERNATIONAL WATERS, EVERYTHING.

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE AND THAT'S HOW WE CONTINUE TO SURVIVE.

>> Antonia: THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT.

AND DEFINITELY OUR PEOPLE ARE RESILIENT AND WE'RE STILL HERE AND I REALLY APPRECIATE BOTH OF YOU COMING ON AND SHARING AND TALKING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT.

THANK YOU.

>> Dr. Suina: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO ANTONIA, JOANNIE, AND GERILYN FOR THAT CONVERSATION.

NOW, LET'S RETURN TO PETER SIMONSON AND WHAT TURNED OUT TO BE AN EXIT INTERVIEW OF SORTS FOR THE LONGTIME EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF THIS INTERVIEW, SIMONSON CONSIDERS HOW THE ORGANIZATION HAS CHANGED SINCE HE TOOK THE JOB IN 2000.

A QUICK REMINDER FOR VIEWERS, THIS INTERVIEW WAS RECORDED BEFORE NOVEMBER'S PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND JUST WEEKS BEFORE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN DROPPED OUT OF THE RACE.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO SHIFT FOCUS A LITTLE BIT AND TALK ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION, ABOUT THE ACLU.

I THINK SOMETIMES ABOUT THIS KIND OF CHEESY AARON SORKIN MOVIE CALLED THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

MAYBE YOU'VE SEEN THE MOVIE.

ANYWAY, RICHARD DREYFUSS PLAYS A REPUBLICAN SENATOR WHO'S RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, AND HE'S RUNNING AGAINST THE INCUMBENT, A LIBERAL DEMOCRAT PLAYED BY MICHAEL DOUGLAS.

HE'S POUNDING ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL BY CALLING HIM A QUOTE, "CARD-CARRYING MEMBER OF THE ACLU," AS IF THAT'S SOME SORT OF A CUDGEL OR A DIRTY WORD, OR A DIRTY PHRASE.

AT THE END OF THE MOVIE DOUGLAS'S CHARACTER MAKES A SPEECH IN WHICH HE COPS TO THE ALLEGATION.

HE IS A MEMBER OF THE ACLU.

AND HE TURNS IT BACK ON DREYFUSS AND SAYS, WHY AREN'T YOU A MEMBER OF AN ORGANIZATION WHOSE SOLE PURPOSE IS TO DEFEND THE BILL OF RIGHTS.

SO I WANT TO ASK, PETER, IS THAT STILL THE ACLU'S SOLE PURPOSE, TO DEFEND THE BILL OF RIGHTS?

>> SIMONSON: NO.

I MEAN -- WELL, YES, OF COURSE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE USE THE BILL OF RIGHTS AS THE TOOL TO ACHIEVE AN ADVANCEMENT OF JUSTICE, LIBERTY AND EQUITY IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

THAT IS HOW WE DESCRIBE OUR MISSION.

BUT THE BILL OF RIGHTS ISN'T THE END, ISN'T THE FINAL PRODUCT THAT WE'RE AFTER, RIGHT.

LIKE THAT IS THE TOOL TO TRY TO ACHIEVE A BETTER SOCIETY IN THE LONG TERM.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, HISTORICALLY, THE ORGANIZATION HAS SEEN, IN FACT FOR A LONG TIME, SORT OF AN ADVERTISING LOGO OR MOTTO WAS THAT THE BILL OF RIGHTS IS THE ACLU'S CLIENT.

WE SEE THE BILL OF RIGHTS AS OUR CLIENT.

I THINK THESE DAYS WE'RE PROBABLY A LITTLE MORE WORLDLY IN THE WAY WE VIEW THE IMPORTANCE OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS.

IT'S AN IMPERFECT INSTRUMENT TO BE SURE, TO TRY TO ADVOCATE FOR JUSTICE AND EQUITY AND LIBERTY, BUT IT'S A TOOL THAT MANY -- THAT DOESN'T EXIST IN MANY COUNTRIES.

AND IT'S AN INCREDIBLE TOOL TO TRY TO ACHIEVE THOSE OUTCOMES.

SO, YOU KNOW, FIRST AMENDMENT, FREE SPEECH, RELIGIOUS LIBERTY, RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENT, THOSE ARE ALL OUR BREAD AND BUTTER ISSUES STILL NOW AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN OVER THE MORE THAN A 100-YEAR HISTORY OF THE ORGANIZATION.

BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT WE CARRY OUT THAT MISSION MORE AND MORE WITH AN EYE TO WHAT ARE THE REAL NEEDS OF OUR COMMUNITY.

PARTICULARLY, THE NEEDS OF COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY DISENFRANCHISED.

COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE TRADITIONALLY NOT REALLY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO EVEN ENJOY THE REALITIES OF -- OR THE PROMISES OF OUR BILL OF RIGHTS.

>> JEFF: THAT'S ANOTHER GOOD SEGUE.

I WANT TO ASK, IN THE QUARTER OF A CENTURY YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS WORK, HOW HAVE THE ORGANIZATION'S RESOURCES, CHALLENGES, AND PRIORITIES CHANGED?

>> SIMONSON: BOY, A BIG QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, THE ORGANIZATION HAS -- I'LL START HERE.

THE ORGANIZATION HAS GROWN DRAMATICALLY.

WE HAVE HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE -- WE LIVE IN A SMALL STATE POPULATION-WISE.

WE LIVE IN A RESOURCE-POOR STATE, AND NEVERTHELESS WE HAVE A COMMUNITY OF SUPPORTERS IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO THAT I WOULD PUT UP AGAINST ANY OTHER COMMUNITY IN THE COUNTRY.

AND IT'S BECAUSE OF THEIR GENEROSITY BECAUSE OF THEIR PASSION FOR JUSTICE THAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BUILD AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS A TRUE POWERHOUSE, EVEN COMPARED TO MOST OTHER AFFILIATES IN STATES OF OUR SIZE OR EVEN LARGER IN THE COUNTRY.

WE'VE GROWN FROM AN ORGANIZATION OF ROUGHLY THREE OR FOUR STAFF WHEN I STARTED, TO AN ORGANIZATION OF OVER 30 STAFF.

WE HAVE EIGHT, NINE, TEN LAWYERS ON STAFF WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE CURRENTLY CARRYING OUT 30 OR 40 DIFFERENT LEGAL ACTIONS.

SOME OF THEM VERY CONSEQUENTIAL WITH SYSTEMIC IMPACT.

SOME OF THEM THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE DRAMATIC IMPACT JUST FOR A SOLE FAMILY WHO MAYBE LOST A LOVED ONE TO POLICE VIOLENCE.

SO, THE CAPACITY OF THE ORGANIZATION HAS JUST INCREASED EXPONENTIALLY.

I JUST HAVE TO SAY PERSONALLY IT'S BEEN -- IT'S SO REWARDING TO HAVE SEEN THAT GROWTH, AND TO HAVE HELPED THAT GROWTH HAPPEN.

BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS FOR OUR STATE.

PRIORITY-WISE, MANY OF THE PRIORITIES HAVE REMAINED THE SAME.

LIKE NEW MEXICO HAS ALWAYS BEEN A WELCOMING PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO RECEIVE REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE, PARTICULARLY COMPARED TO THE STATES THAT WE'RE SANDWICHED BETWEEN, ARIZONA AND TEXAS.

AND THAT IS MORE TRUE NOW THAN IT EVER HAS BEEN IN OUR HISTORY.

WE'VE BEEN A PLACE THAT'S BEEN GENERALLY MORE WELCOMING TO IMMIGRANT FAMILIES THAN THE STATES THAT SURROUND US.

AND YET, WE STILL SEE MAJOR CONFLICTS THERE.

WE HAVE TO FIGHT FOR THOSE RIGHTS EACH AND EVERY DAY.

LIKE CIVIL LIBERTIES ARE NEVER WON, THEY'RE ONLY -- THOSE BATTLES ARE FOUGHT AND REFOUGHT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

SO, OUR PRIORITIES HAVE REMAINED RELATIVELY CONSTANT OVER TIME, I WOULD SAY.

THE ONLY OTHER ONE BETWEEN IMMIGRANT RIGHTS, AGAIN, PROTECTING ACCESS TO ABORTION CARE AND OTHER REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE, CERTAINLY THE FACT THAT WE HERE IN NEW MEXICO HAVE AN UNUSUALLY LARGE PERCENTAGE OF OUR POPULATION THAT'S INCARCERATED.

AND THAT PHENOMENON MOSTLY AFFECTS PEOPLE OF COLOR, PARTICULARLY INDIGENOUS FOLKS.

BLACK PEOPLE, THEY TEND TO MAKE UP THE LARGE -- A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF FOLKS SERVING TIME COMPARED TO WHAT THE POPULATION IS IN THE COMMUNITY.

SO, THAT CONTINUES TO BE ONE OF OUR PRIORITIES.

AND MAKING SURE THAT OUR CORRECTIONS SYSTEM IS NOT JUST AN INDUSTRY OF ABUSE TO PEOPLE THAT ARE INCARCERATED.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE IN SOME CASES VERY HORRENDOUS CONDITIONS IN OUR PRISONS.

SO THOSE REMAIN KEY PRIORITIES.

THE ONE PLACE WHERE I THINK OUR PRIORITIES HAVE REALLY CHANGED AND SHIFTED HAS BEEN IN THE AREA OF INDIGENOUS JUSTICE.

YOU KNOW, I'M SORT OF SAD TO SAY THAT HISTORICALLY WE AS A STATE ACLU AFFILIATE HAVE NOT DONE EVERYTHING THAT WE MIGHT HAVE DONE OVER THE YEARS ON BEHALF OF INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES.

AND FOR ROUGHLY THE LAST SIX YEARS NOW, WE HAVE BEEN REALLY MORE COMMITTED TO THAT CAUSE.

THAT'S A TREND HAPPENING NATIONALLY, BY THE WAY, AND WE HAPPEN TO BE ON THE FOREFRONT OF THAT TREND WITHIN THE NATIONAL ACLU.

BUT I'M VERY HAPPY TO SAY THAT WE'RE NOW REALLY TRYING TO FIND WAYS TO BE AS -- TO ADD AS MUCH VALUE TO THE EFFORTS THAT ARE ALREADY GOING ON IN THE GROUND.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO LEAD THOSE EFFORTS, BUT WE'RE GOING TO BE AS SUPPORTIVE AS POSSIBLE.

AND I CAN CERTAINLY CITE EXAMPLES OF SOME OF THE WORK WE'VE DONE THERE.

>> JEFF: I'D LIKE TO RETURN FOR JUST A MOMENT TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

OBVIOUSLY, I DON'T GET TO DO THE WORK THAT I'VE DONE FOR THE LAST 22 YEARS IN NEW MEXICO WITHOUT THAT.

THE ACLU HISTORICALLY HAS BEEN THE BASTION OF THE PROTECTION OF FREE SPEECH, FREE EXPRESSION.

YOU KNOW, THE ACLU REPRESENTED NAZIS IN SKOKIE IN THE '70S.

THEIR FREE SPEECH RIGHTS.

AND I CAN CITE A MILLION OTHER EXAMPLES JUST LIKE THAT ONE.

BUT THE ONE FROM MORE RECENT MEMORY THAT REALLY STICKS OUT FOR ME WAS IN 2017 IN CHARLOTTESVILLE, VIRGINIA, WHEN THE ACLU HELPED ESSENTIALLY A GROUP OF WHITE SUPREMACISTS GET A PERMIT TO HOLD THAT RALLY, AND OF COURSE A YOUNG WOMAN WAS KILLED.

I WONDER WAS THE ORGANIZATION CHASTENED BY THE EVENTS OF THAT DAY IN 2017?

>> SIMONSON: I WOULDN'T SAY CHASTENED.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT ADJECTIVE.

I WOULD SAY IT DEFINITELY GENERATED QUITE A BIT OF DEBATE WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION.

AND YOU KNOW, KEEP IN MIND THAT OVER THAT VERY TIME THE ORGANIZATION NATIONALLY AND WITHIN OUR OWN AFFILIATE WAS BECOMING MUCH MORE DIVERSE RACIALLY AND OTHERWISE.

SO, QUESTIONS LIKE THAT RESOUND DIFFERENTLY THROUGH AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU A LARGE PROPORTION EVEN 50% OR MORE OF STAFF WHO ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR.

I THINK THEY FEEL THOSE QUESTIONS MORE INTIMATELY THAN SOME OF THE TRADITIONAL LEADERS OF THE ORGANIZATION.

SO, IT HAS GENERATED A FAIR AMOUNT OF DEBATE WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION.

IT'S CAUSED US AS A STATE AFFILIATE TO STEP BACK AND SORT OF REFLECT ON HOW WOULD WE RESPOND IN A SIMILAR MOMENT AND TO CREATE SOME SPECIFIC CRITERIA FOR DECIDING HOW WOULD WE REACT TO A MOMENT LIKE THAT.

IN WHAT CASES WOULD WE ACTUALLY WEIGH IN ON BEHALF OF A GROUP OF A -- OF A GROUP THAT WAS PROMULGATING HATE SPEECH.

AND TO THE DETRIMENT OF COMMUNITIES THAT WE TRADITIONALLY WANT TO BE HELPING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

THAT WE WANT TO BE ALLIES WITH.

I THINK WE'RE MUCH BETTER SITUATED TO RESPOND TO ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS.

WE HAVEN'T HAD THOSE MOMENTS IN RECENT HISTORY THAT I CAN REMEMBER.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION.

YOU KNOW, LIKE, THIS IS A GROUP THAT HAS A HISTORY OF VIOLENCE, AND DO WE WANT TO BE WORKING DIRECTLY WITH GROUPS THAT ARE ACTUALLY THREATENING VIOLENCE EVEN WHILE THEY'RE EXERCISING THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

ARE THESE GROUPS -- IS THE QUESTION AT HAND ONE THAT IS GOING TO CREATE SOME SORT OF IMPORTANT PRECEDENT AS IT CONCERNS FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

IN OUR COURTS, IS THIS A GROUP THAT CAN GET ITS OWN LEGAL COUNSEL AND HAS PERFECTLY THE RESOURCES NECESSARY TO DO THAT.

>> JEFF: THAT DOESN'T NEED YOUR HELP, ESSENTIALLY.

>> SIMONSON: EXACTLY.

THAT DOESN'T NEED OUR HELP.

SO THOSE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT WE COULD CONSIDER IN MAKING A DECISION IN THOSE KINDS OF INSTANCES.

I SHOULD ALSO SAY, LIKE, YOU KNOW THE NATIONAL OFFICE MAKES ITS DECISIONS ABOUT MOMENTS LIKE THAT AND QUESTIONS THAT COME UP, AND IT'S A NATIONAL ORGANIZATION.

IT'S SITUATED A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY THAN WE HERE ON THE GROUND, WHO HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO THE COMMUNITIES THAT SURROUND US.

TO THE COMMUNITIES THAT WE'RE FRANKLY A PART OF.

SO, I THINK IT ALSO LANDS WITH US A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY WHEN THOSE MOMENTS COME UP.

>> Jeff: WHAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT IS WHAT CAN PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING THIS DO TO DEFEND THEIR OWN CIVIL RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES, AND EVERYBODY ELSE'S?

>> SIMONSON: YEAH, I KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO ASK THIS QUESTION, SO I'VE GIVEN IT SOME THOUGHT.

YOU KNOW, AS I'M THINKING ABOUT THE COMING YEAR, THE ELECTIONS, I'M THINKING A LOT ABOUT OUR NEED TO, AS AN ORGANIZATION, STEP BACK AND TAKE A MOMENT TO THINK HOW ARE WE GOING TO PREPARE OURSELVES FOR WHAT MAY COME IN A SECOND TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK CONCERNS ME IS I HEAR IT IN THE VOICES OF MEMBERS, I HEAR IT IN THE VOICES OF SOME OF OUR FINANCIAL SUPPORTERS, A KIND OF LEVEL OF EXASPERATION AND EVEN DESPAIR THAT WORRIES ME THAT WE COULD SEE FOLKS INSTEAD OF REALLY STEPPING UP AND RESPONDING TO THE MOMENT, PULL BACK AND SORT OF DISASSOCIATE FROM THE POLITICAL REALM.

STOP READING THE NEWS.

PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THAT.

AND THERE'S -- THAT'S A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE.

I THINK IT'S AN UNDERSTANDABLE RESPONSE, AT LEAST.

AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT A TRUMP PRESIDENCY, DESPITE THE SUPREME COURT RULINGS, DESPITE THE MEDIA PREDICTIONS, IS NOT GOING TO BE A TOTALIZING PRESIDENCY.

IT IS NOT GOING TO -- I DON'T THINK IT WILL SPELL THE END OF DEMOCRACY, AS MANY PEOPLE ARE KIND OF PREDICTING THESE DAYS.

BUT IT IS GOING TO REQUIRE US TO, AS A COMMUNITY, AS COMMUNITIES AROUND THIS COUNTRY, TO STEP UP AND PARTICIPATE IN THE SAME WAY THAT WE DID BACK DURING THE FIRST TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

AND THAT'S GOING TO MEAN SPEAKING OUT.

IT'S GOING TO MEAN LOCKING IN, JOINING IN TO OTHER GROUPS.

WHETHER THAT MEANS SPEAKING OUT IN SOCIAL MEDIA, WRITING LETTERS TO YOUR NEWSPAPER.

WHETHER IT MEANS GETTING INVOLVED IN AN INDIVISIBLE GROUP, OR STARTING AN INDIVISIBLE GROUP, OR BECOMING PART OF ANOTHER ORGANIZATION THAT'S DOING WORK YOU SUPPORT IN A PARTICULAR AREA.

JOINING THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO.

YOU KNOW, I WOULD ENCOURAGE FOLKS TO GO TO OUR WEBSITE AND SIGN UP TO BE A VOLUNTEER.

WE WILL BE OUT AND TRYING TO RECRUIT AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE IN THE EVENT WE SEE ANOTHER TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

WE'RE ALREADY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT WOULD LOOK LIKE FOR US TO RESPOND TO VARIOUS SPECIFIC SORTS OF THREATS HERE IN THE STATE.

AND WE'RE GOING TO NEED EVERYBODY BACK BEHIND US AND OUT ON THE STREETS PROTESTING.

YOU KNOW, WHATEVER IT MAY TAKE.

BUT I THINK THAT'S THE WAY -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THERE IS SOME NEW, GLAMOROUS, GLITTERING APPROACH TO HOW WE DO THIS.

I THINK WE REACT THE WAY WE DID IN THE LAST TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

KEEP IN MIND, TRUMP OBVIOUSLY WOULD BE IN OFFICE WITH SUPREME COURT RULINGS THAT ARE GOING TO GIVE HIM MORE EXPANSIVE AUTHORITY THAN WHAT HE HAS HAD IN THE PAST, IT DOES APPEAR.

AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT DURING THE FIRST TERM, LIKE ALL THE EFFORTS THAT HE MADE TO TRY TO RECONSTRUCT GOVERNMENT, TRY TO OPPRESS THE IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES, LIKE THOSE WERE ALL CONTESTED OUTCOMES AT THE END OF THE DAY.

YOU THINK ABOUT THE FAMILY SEPARATION POLICY.

YOU THINK ABOUT THE MUSLIM BAN.

YOU THINK ABOUT THE BORDER WALL.

LIKE ALL OF THOSE EFFORTS WERE AT LEAST WEAKENED, IF NOT DELAYED, IF NOT STOPPED IN THEIR TRACKS.

AND THAT WAS BECAUSE PEOPLE ROSE TO THE MOMENT.

ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE ACLU ROSE TO THE MOMENT.

AND WE'LL HAVE TO DO THAT AGAIN.

I THINK THAT FOLKS SOMETIMES -- LIKE IF IT'S NOT THE SORT OF GLAMOROUS WORK OF EXPANDING CIVIL RIGHTS, EXPANDING CIVIL LIBERTIES, WE FORGET THE IMPORTANCE OF JUST HOLDING THE LINE AND PROTECTING WHAT CURRENTLY EXISTS IN THE COUNTRY.

AND YOU KNOW, WE MAY LOSE SOME GROUND UNDER A NEW TRUMP PRESIDENCY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THE THINGS WE'RE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO PROTECT ARE GOING TO BE CRITICAL TO KEEPING THIS COUNTRY TO BE WHAT IT HAS BEEN OVER MULTIPLE CENTURIES NOW.

THINGS LIKE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS, THINGS LIKE REPRESENTATIVE FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS WE'RE GOING TO BE FIGHTING FOR.

AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE CRITICAL BECAUSE TO HAVE THOSE THINGS PUT ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK, ALL OF OUR LIVES WILL CHANGE QUALITATIVELY.

IT IS WORTH STEPPING UP AND PUTTING OUT THE ENERGY AGAIN JUST THE WAY WE DID UNDER THE FIRST TRUMP PRESIDENCY.

>> JEFF: RIGHT NOW, MOST OF THAT STUFF IS STILL STANDING.

I THINK I GENERALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID.

THERE WAS A HOLLOWING OUT CERTAINLY, AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER HORRORS.

BUT THE INSTITUTIONS BY AND LARGE SURVIVED.

IN ANY CASE, PETER SIMONSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF NEW MEXICO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE CHAT.

>> SIMONSON: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO JEFF AND TO PETER SIMONSON FOR COMING IN AND TALKING WITH US.

PETER'S OFFICIAL LAST DAY WITH THE ACLU WILL BE DECEMBER 31st.

WHEN RAINIER LONG LEARNED HIS SCHOOL IN SANTA FE WAS CUTTING LIBRARY TIME TO ACCOMMODATE TECHNOLOGY CLASS, HE HAD A LOT TO SAY.

THE 6th GRADER AT CARLOS GILBERT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL MET WITH TEACHERS AND ORGANIZED A PROTEST.

RECENTLY, HE SPOKE WITH OUR LAND'S SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS ABOUT THE ISSUE AND ABOUT WHY HE THINKS READING IS SO IMPORTANT.

>> Laura: RAINIER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING TO ALBUQUERQUE AND BEING ON THE SHOW TODAY.

SO, I REALLY LOVE READING.

I TOTALLY LOVE READING, AND ONE OF THE THINGS I REALLY LOVE ABOUT READING IS IT'S LIKE KIND OF SUBVERSIVE AND IT'S PRIVATE.

LIKE SOMEBODY SEES YOUR BOOK COVER, BUT THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE AND YOU GET TO USE YOUR IMAGINATION AND IT'S NOT LIKE -- THERE'S NOTHING ELSE IN YOUR WAY.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU LIKE ABOUT READING?

>> Long: WELL, LET'S SEE.

IT TELLS YOU GREAT STORIES, FIRST OF ALL.

AND, I MEAN, BASICALLY ONCE YOU START A GOOD BOOK, YOU'RE GOING TO WANT TO KNOW THE ENDING AND GET THERE AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE.

IT'S SORT OF LIKE, HOW DO I PUT THIS?

LET'S SAY YOU'RE EATING A REALLY GOOD ICE CREAM CONE, OR LET'S SAY YOU'RE EATING A REALLY GOOD, I DON'T KNOW, QUICHE AND YOU WANT TO GET THERE -- YOU WANT TO EAT IT OF COURSE.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SAVOR IT UNTIL IT GETS OLD.

LIKE THE STORY GETS OLD.

IF IT'S A REALLY GOOD FOOD/STORY, YOU'RE GOING TO WANT TO EAT/READ IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND ANOTHER THING SIMILAR BETWEEN READING AND EATING, IF IT'S A GOOD MEAL OR IT'S A GOOD BOOK, YOU'RE GOING TO WANT TO, LIKE I SAID, READ IT REALLY QUICKLY, BUT OF COURSE YOU MAY REGRET BEING FINISHED WITH IT.

>> Laura: AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU ORGANIZED A PROTEST AT YOUR SCHOOL REGARDING LIBRARY TIME.

WOULD YOU TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT?

>> Long: YEAH, OUR SCHOOL -- THIS IS A KINDER THROUGH SIXTH ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

CARLOS GILBERT.

SO, THIS IS MY LAST YEAR HERE.

MY SEVENTH YEAR.

FROM KINDERGARTEN TO FIFTH GRADE, MY FIRST SIX YEARS, THERE WERE FOUR SPECIALS.

LIBRARY, PE, ART, AND MUSIC.

EVEN THOUGH THE TEACHERS CHANGED, MOSTLY IN ART CLASS.

ACTUALLY, ONLY IN ART CLASS.

THE BASIS OF THEM WAS THE SAME.

LIBRARY YOU READ AND ENJOY YOURSELF.

PE, YOU WOULD PLAY GAMES OR OCCASIONALLY JUST HAVE A DAY WHERE YOU MAINLY USE A JUMP ROPE OR DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

MUSIC, WE WOULD LEARN SONGS PREPARING FOR A CONCERT, OR WE COULD LEARN NEW WAYS TO SING, BASICALLY.

FOR ART, WE WOULD MAKE CRAFTS, PAPIER-MACHE, FREE DRAWING, WATER COLORS.

YES, THE BASIS OF THEM WOULD BE THE SAME.

THIS YEAR, IN SIXTH GRADE, THERE ARE FIVE SPECIALS.

THE EXTRA ONE IS TECHNOLOGY.

LIKE BEFORE, FOUR OF THE SPECIALS ARE AN HOUR, JUST LIKE ALL THE GRADES.

EVERY SINGLE GRADE, THERE'S FOUR SPECIALS THAT HAVE BEEN AN HOUR.

BUT SINCE SIXTH GRADE, THERE ARE FIVE SPECIALS.

THE SPECIAL THAT IS NOT AN HOUR IS GOING TO BE CUT DOWN TO HALF AN HOUR IS GOING TO BE LIBRARY.

THAT WAS NOT FAIR FOR ANY OF THE GRADES.

I DID HOLD A PROTEST, STARTING WITH A PETITION.

THEN I ATTENDED SOME PARENT-TEACHER-KIDS, MINUS KIDS, MEETING.

IT'S CALLED A PTK MEETING, BUT KIDS DON'T HAVE MUCH OF A SAY IN IT.

I WENT TO THAT.

THAT WAS THE SECOND THING I DID.

THE THIRD THING WAS HOLD THE PROTESTS OUTSIDE DURING RECESS.

I HOLD THEM DURING RECESS.

SO, YEAH, THAT WAS THAT.

WHEN THEY STILL WOULDN'T LISTEN, I DID A SIT-IN PROTEST IN THE LIBRARY FOR AN HOUR.

FOR MONTHS, NO ONE LISTENED.

THIS NOVEMBER, ACTUALLY THIS -- THIS NOVEMBER, YEAH THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN IT.

THEY DECIDED THAT THEY COULD MAKE LIBRARY AN HOUR AGAIN FOR SIXTH GRADE, NOT FOR ANY OTHER GRADES.

THEY HAD OFFERED ME THIS BEFORE AND I TOLD THEM NO THAT WOULD BE FAIR SIXTH GRADE, NOT FOR SIX GRADES.

>> Laura: WHY DO YOU THINK STUDENTS SHOULD HAVE MORE LIBRARY TIME THAN TECHNOLOGY TIME?

>> Long: I'LL JUST PUT IT THERE.

I DON'T THINK THAT.

I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE EQUAL LIBRARY TIME AS TECHNOLOGY TIME.

BECAUSE IF THE SCHOOL THINKS THAT TECHNOLOGY IS WHAT WE NEED TO LEARN, I'LL GIVE THEM THAT.

THEY CAN FORCE US TO LEARN THAT.

I DON'T THINK IT'S WORTH MORE.

I THINK IT'S WORTH EQUAL.

BUT THEY'RE TREATING IT LESS, SO THAT'S WHAT I -- THE REASON I THINK IT'S EQUAL IS BECAUSE, WELL, THERE ARE ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF LEARNING AND EVEN IF SOME LEARNING WILL HELP YOU MORE, HELP YOU OUT MORE, AND ONCE AGAIN I'M NOT HERE SHAMING TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY, I'LL ADMIT, THE WORLD IS GETTING BIGGER SO WE NEED TO USE IT.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO LEARN THAT AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO READ AND WRITE, TOO.

YEAH, THEY'RE TREATING LIBRARY LIKE IT'S LESS.

AND I DON'T THINK IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN TECHNOLOGY.

I THINK IT'S EQUALLY IMPORTANT.

>> Laura: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE SHOW TODAY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> Long: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO LAURA AND RAINIER LONG, AND THANKS TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THIS SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.