>> Laura: IT MIGHT BE HARD TO REMEMBER TODAY BUT IN THE 1980'S AND 90'S NEW MEXICO'S RESERVOIRS WERE DOING PRETTY WELL.

THAT STARTED TO CHANGE DRASTICALLY IN THE 2000'S.

WITH YEAR AFTER YEAR OF DROUGHT AND TEMPERATURES RISING, IN 2008 TWO WATER DISTRICTS, ONE IN TEXAS AND ONE IN NEW MEXICO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW HAPPENING AT ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR.

IN COOPERATION WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THEY CAME UP WITH AN AGREEMENT TO SHARE WATER DURING DRY TIMES.

BUT THE STATES OF NEW MEXICO AND TEXAS WEREN'T ACTUALLY A PART OF THAT AGREEMENT.

AND FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL HERE IN NEW MEXICO, GARY KING, SUED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SAYING TOO MUCH OF THE RIO GRANDE'S WATER WAS GOING TO TEXAS.

TEXAS DISAGREED AND THEN ALLEGED THAT BY ALLOWING FARMERS TO PUMP GROUNDWATER CONNECTED TO THE RIO GRANDE, NEW MEXICO HAD BEEN SHORTCHANGING TEXAS UNDER THE RIO GRANDE COMPACT OF 1938.

WHEN TEXAS SUED NEW MEXICO AND OUR UPSTREAM NEIGHBOR, COLORADO, WE ALL LANDED IN THE SUPREME COURT.

THAT EXPENSIVE AND STRESSFUL LEGAL BATTLE HAS GONE ON FOR YEARS.

NOW THE THREE STATES SAY THEY HAVE COME UP WITH A PLAN TO MOVE FORWARD AND RECENTLY FEDERAL JUDGE MICHAEL MELLOY, HE IS WHAT IS CALLED THE SPECIAL MASTER ON THE CASE, HE ISSUED AN ORDER GIVING THAT SETTLEMENT THE GREEN LIGHT.

HE ALSO IS RECOMMENDING THAT THE SUPREME COURT DO THE SAME.

THOUGH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HASN'T AGREED TO THE PLAN.

SO, TO HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON, I RECENTLY SPOKE WITH WATER ATTORNEY, ADRIAN OGLESBY.

HE DIRECTS THE UTTON CENTER AT UNM LAW SCHOOL.

ADRIAN OGLESBY, THANKS FOR BEING WITH ME TODAY.

>> Oglesby: YEAH.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU LAURA.

IT HAS BEEN A WHILE.

>> Laura: THANK YOU.

SO NEW MEXICO IS CELEBRATING JUDGE MELLOY'S DECISION BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HASN'T ACTUALLY SIGNED ON YET.

DOES THAT MATTER?

>> Oglesby: IT DOES FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS.

THE FIRST THING TO KEEP IN MIND IS THAT THIS IS A CASE BETWEEN THE STATES IN THE SUPREME COURT.

WHEN THE STATE'S HAVE ARGUMENTS DIRECTLY BETWEEN THEMSELVES, THE SUPREME COURT HAS WHAT THEY CALL ORIGINAL JURISDICTION, EXCLUSIVE JURISDICTION OVER THE FIGHTS BETWEEN THE STATES.

IN THIS CASE, WE HAVE GOT THIS INTERESTING SITUATION WHERE THE TWO MAIN ANTAGONISTS, TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO, ARE NOW ARM IN ARM IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT SAYING WE ARE IN AGREEMENT ABOUT SOMETHING.

THE UNITED STATES INTERVENED IN THIS CASE AND WHEN THEY INTERVENED, TEXAS, IN PARTICULAR, WAS VERY PARTICULAR SAYING, WE ARE HAPPY TO HAVE THEM IN THE ROOM BUT WE WANT TO LIMIT THIS TO QUESTIONS ABOUT INTERPRETATION OF THE COMPACT.

THE ISSUES THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION OF THE UNITED STATES HAS ARE ISSUES THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE ADDRESSED BY LOWER COURTS AND THERE ARE ACTUALLY CASES THAT HAVE BEEN STAYED WAITING FOR THE SUPREME COURT DECISION WHERE THIS RECLAMATION COULD RETURN AND HAVE THEIR ISSUES ADDRESSED.

THAT IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THE QUESTION THAT YOU HAVE ASKED.

THE PROCEDURAL IMPACT IS THAT THE SUPREME COURT, IF THEY DECIDE NOT TO JUST ACCEPT THE SPECIAL MASTER'S RECOMMENDATION AS IS, MAY DECIDE TO HAVE A TRIAL AND HEAR THE UNITED STATES' OBJECTIONS AND I SUSPECT THAT IS GOING TO BE LIKELY.

THAT PUSHES OUT THE TIME FRAME A LITTLE BIT.

SO IF THAT IS THE CASE, I EXPECT WE MAY SEE A DECISION FROM THE SUPREME COURT CONSIDERING THE U.S.' CONCERNS SOME TIME MID 2024.

>> Laura: WOW.

WE STILL HAVE A WAYS TO GO.

>> Oglesby: A LITTLE BIT, YES, BUT THAT IS PRETTY FAST IN SUPREME COURT WORLD.

>> Laura: OKAY.

IF THERE WERE A DECISION OR IF THE SETTLEMENT AS IT HAS SORT OF BEEN NEGOTIATED NOW WERE SET INTO PLACE, WHAT KINDS OF THINGS DO YOU THINK WOULD CHANGE ON THE GROUND?

>> Oglesby: THE MAIN IMPACT IS GOING TO BE HISTORICALLY WE HAVE HAD ONE DELIVERY POINT FOR OUR WATER TO TEXAS AND THAT IS ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR WHICH IS IN NEW MEXICO, WELL ABOVE THE TEXAS STATE LINE.

SO, THE NOTION WAS WE WOULD DELIVER TO THAT RESERVOIR AND THEN THE WATER WOULD BE SPLIT 57% TO THE NEW MEXICANS BELOW, 43% TO THE TEXANS BELOW, BUT GIVEN THE ALLEGED OVERUSE OF WATER BY NEW MEXICO, TEXAS NOW WANTS TO HAVE A GAUGING STATION RIGHT AT THE STATE LINE.

SO WE'LL HAVE TWO DELIVERY POINTS.

WE'LL CONTINUE TO DELIVER TO ELEPHANT BUTTE JUST AS WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE, THE SAME RULES APPLY, BUT NOW WE HAVE A GAUGE RIGHT ABOVE THE TEXAS STATE LINE WHERE THEY WILL ALSO BE MEASURING TO MAKE SURE WE GET SUFFICIENT WATER TO MEET TEXAS' APPORTIONMENT.

>> Laura: WHY DO YOU THINK NEW MEXICANS, AND NOT JUST FARMERS OR CITIES IN THE SOUTH, LIKE WHY SHOULD ANYBODY IN NEW MEXICO CARE ABOUT THIS?

>> Oglesby: IT IS OUR OBLIGATION.

THE OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE COMPACT ARE HELD BY ALL NEW MEXICANS.

IT IS NOT JUST THE FARMERS WHO HAVE TO DELIVER THE WATER.

SO, IF THERE WAS A CALL TO DELIVER A LOT MORE WATER, THAT WOULD POTENTIALLY COME FROM NOT ONLY THE LOWER RIO GRANDE BUT POTENTIALLY THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE AND OTHER PLACES ALONG THE RIVER.

MOREOVER, THE COMPACT IS AN AGREEMENT.

IT IS A CONTRACT OF SORTS AND YOU KNOW WE, AS NEW MEXICANS, SHOULD STAND BY OUR WORD.

>> Laura: THERE IS A LONG HISTORY TO THIS LAWSUIT BUT I KNOW OFTENTIMES NEW MEXICANS SEE WATER ISSUES IN THE STATE AS TEXANS STEALING OUR WATER, TAKING OUR WATER.

IS THIS LAWSUIT AN EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING LIKE THAT OR IS THERE A DEEPER ISSUE?

>> Oglesby: IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE ALLEGATIONS HERE WERE THAT NEW MEXICO WAS THE ONE STEALING WATER.

OF COURSE, NEW MEXICO MADE COUNTERCLAIMS, THAT SAID, NO, TEXAS IS ALSO PUMPING THE HECK OUT OF GROUNDWATER AND THAT IS IMPACTING US AS WELL.

AND THERE IS BACK AND FORTH ON THAT ISSUE.

IN REALITY, IF YOU GO DOWN TO THE SOUTHERN PART OF THE RIO GRANDE PROJECT, AS WE CALL IT, THE TWO IRRIGATION DISTRICTS, ELEPHANT BUTTE IRRIGATION DISTRICT AND EL PASO'S NUMBER ONE IRRIGATION DISTRICT, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE MANAGED SEPARATELY ACROSS STATE LINES, THEY ARE REALLY AN INTERWOVEN SYSTEM.

SO WE HAVE PLACES DOWN THERE WHERE OBVIOUSLY NEW MEXICO IS DELIVERING WATER TO TEXAS BUT WE ALSO HAVE PLACES WHERE TEXAS IS DELIVERING WATER TO NEW MEXICANS.

IT IS REALLY ONE BIG SYSTEM DOWN THERE AND SO IT IS NOT REALLY USEFUL TO SAY, YOU KNOW, TEXANS ARE THE OTHER.

THEY ARE PART OF THE FAMILY DOWN THERE.

AND THE MORE WE CAN COOPERATE, THE BETTER.

>> Laura: SO, DO YOU THINK AS THE CLIMATE WARMS, AS THINGS GET DRYER AND WATER CHALLENGES INCREASE, DO YOU THINK WE'LL SEE MORE OF THESE TYPES OF LAWSUITS OR DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER OR LEARN HOW TO COOPERATE?

>> Oglesby: AS WATER SUPPLIES ARE REDUCED DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE, I THINK WE'LL SEE MORE OF THESE KIND OF DISPUTES.

THINGS JUST GET HARDER AND HARDER THE LESS WATER WE HAVE.

IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I AM KIND OF OPTIMISTIC.

PART OF THE PROBLEM, PART OF WHAT GOT US HERE WAS TO USE THE OLD PHRASE, A FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE.

AND, AGAIN, NOW WE HAVE GOT TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO AND COLORADO ALL AGAIN ARM IN ARM IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT.

THEY HAVE WORKED OUT A GOOD SETTLEMENT.

THEY ARE FOCUSED ON GETTING IT IMPLEMENTED AND SOME OF THE ACTIONS THEY ARE TAKING TO MAKE SURE THAT NEW MEXICO CAN MEET ITS OBLIGATIONS INCLUDE HEAVY INVESTMENTS IN CONSERVATION, DEVELOPING PROGRAMS WHERE WE CAN TEMPORARILY ALLOW FARMERS TO LEASE THEIR WATER TO HELP US MEET OUR OBLIGATIONS, INCLUDING OUR OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT HERE IN THE MIDDLE VALLEY AND STORM WATER CAPTURE IS SOMETHING THAT FOLKS ARE REALLY HEAVILY FOCUSING ON BECAUSE WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, WE ALL ARE EXPECTING THESE MORE FREAKISH KIND OF STORMS AND THAT IF WE CAN MONITOR WHERE THOSE ARE COMING IN THROUGH OUR ARROYOS AND SIDE CHANNELS AND CAPTURE THOSE, THAT IS GOING TO BE A BIG HELP.

THEN THE LAST ELEMENT THAT I THINK FOLKS ARE REALLY STARTING TO THINK HARD ABOUT, BUT IT IS GOING TO BE A MUCH THORNIER ISSUE IS UTILIZING DEEP BRACKISH WATER AND DESALINATING THAT TO A POINT WHERE IT CAN BE USED EITHER FOR AGRICULTURE OR OTHER PURPOSES.

>> Laura: SO DO YOU THINK THAT THIS LAWSUIT WHICH WAS FOCUSED ON THE LOWER RIO GRANDE, DO YOU THINK IT HOLDS ANY LESSONS OR POTENTIAL WARNINGS FOR UPSTREAM INCLUDING HERE IN THE MIDDLE VALLEY?

>> Oglesby: YEAH, CERTAINLY.

REALLY TO THE ITEMS I JUST LISTED.

WE HAVE TO COMMUNICATE BETTER AND JUST RECENTLY THERE WAS A GET TOGETHER, A TOUR OF THE RIVER THAT WAS ORGANIZED BY THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE CONSERVANCY DISTRICT AND THE ELEPHANT BUTTE IRRIGATION DISTRICT, NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED HISTORICALLY.

WE HAVE GOTTEN THOSE BOARDS TOGETHER FOR LUNCH ONCE IN A WHILE BUT NOW THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW THEIR OPERATIONS CAN COMPLIMENT ONE ANOTHER AND CAN ASSIST WITH THE STATE'S OBLIGATIONS TO TEXAS.

YEAH.

>> Laura: LASTLY, I AM CURIOUS, YOU'RE A WATER ATTORNEY AND HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THESE ISSUES FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT -- WHAT DO YOU REALLY WISH THAT NEW MEXICANS BETTER UNDERSTOOD OR TALKED ABOUT MORE, MAYBE PARTICULARLY ON THE RIO GRANDE?

>> Oglesby: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

AND I SHOULD CLARIFY I WAS PROBABLY ONE OF THE FEW LAWYERS IN THE STATE WHO IS NOT ENGAGED IN THE SUPREME COURT CASE, WHICH IS PROBABLY WHY I CAN TALK TO YOU MORE FREELY ABOUT IT.

BUT, YEAH, YOU KNOW, WE ALL JUST HAVE TO CONSTANTLY DO BETTER.

IN THIS CASE, WE WERE SORT OF TRYING TO HOLD THE LINE.

WE ARE TRYING TO MAINTAIN THE EXISTING AGREEMENT THAT WE FORMULATED BACK IN 1978.

BUT, YEAH, CLIMATE CHANGE IS UPON US.

I MEAN, YOU FELT HOW HOT IT IS THIS SUMMER, RIGHT?

WE ALL KNOW WE ARE GOING TO HAVE LESS WATER AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE MORE FIRES AND MORE CHALLENGES.

SO THINKING AHEAD AND PREPARING FOR THAT, GETTING BEYOND JUST HOW DO WE DEAL WITH TODAY'S PROBLEMS IS AN OBLIGATION THAT FALLS ON ALL OF US, WHETHER WE ARE IRRIGATING A HALF ACRE IN TIERRA AMARILLA OR MANAGING A DISTRICT THAT SERVES 60,000 ACRES, WE SHOULD ALL BE THINKING THE SAME WAY.

ONE THING THAT ENCOURAGES ME IS THAT 20 YEARS AGO YOU RARELY HEARD PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT AS A CONCERN, AS PART OF THEIR WATER MANAGEMENT.

NOW THAT IS A CONSISTENT LINE THROUGHOUT.

AND JOINED TO THAT, OF COURSE, NOW IS MAKING SURE WE MEET OUR OBLIGATIONS TO TEXAS AS WELL.

I AM OPTIMISTIC WE ARE GOING TO DO THAT.

WE'LL SEE WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SAYS, OF COURSE.

>> Laura: WELL, THANKS ADRIAN, I APPRECIATE IT.

>> Oglesby: IT HAS BEEN GREAT TO BE HERE, LAURA, THANKS.