REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

TODAY OUR GUEST TODAY IS ISABEL WILKERSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>ISABEL: THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: WELL YOU ARE ON LEAVE AS PROFESSOR OF JOURNALISM AND NARRATIVE NONFICTION FROM BOSTON UNIVERSITY.

YOU WERE THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN IN JOURNALISM TO WIN THE PULITZER PRIZE AND YOU WERE THE FIRST BLACK AMERICAN TO WIN FOR INDIVIDUAL REPORTING, CONGRATULATIONS.

>>ISABEL: THANKS SO MUCH.

>>LORENE: BUT YOU ARE HERE BECAUSE I LOVE, LOVE YOUR BOOK.

IT IS CALLED THE WARMTH OF OTHER SUNS: THE EPIC STORY OF AMERICA'S GREAT MIGRATION AND THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS.

TELL US WHAT COMPELLED YOU TO DIG INTO THIS, THE MOST UNDERREPORTED STORY IN 20TH CENTURY AMERICAN HISTORY.

>>ISABEL: WELL, IN SOME WAYS IT'S MY OWN FAMILY'S STORY.

IT IS THE STORY REALLY OF THE MAJORITY OF AFRICAN AMERICANS THAT YOU MIGHT MEET, NORTH, MIDWEST AND WEST AND WHEN YOU GO BEYOND THAT, IT IS REALLY THE STORY OF MANY, MANY, MANY AMERICANS WHOSE ORIGINS MEANT THAT THEY HAVE ANCESTORS WHO CROSSED THE ATLANTIC, CROSSED THE PACIFIC OCEAN, CROSSED THE RIO GRANDE TO GET TO THESE SHORES.

AND SO IN SOME WAYS IT IS SO MANY PEOPLES' STORIES AND YET IT HADN'T BEEN TOLD IN THIS WAY.

MY PARENTS WERE PART OF THIS GREAT MIGRATION, THEY CAME FROM TWO DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE SOUTH TO WASHINGTON, DC FROM GEORGIA AND VIRGINIA TO WASHINGTON, DC.

AND HAD THEY NOT MIGRATED, I WOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE, WHICH IS REALLY THE AMERICAN STORY.

SO THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PROPELLED ME TO WANT TO DO IT.

ACTUALLY, HAVING BEEN RAISED BY THEM, THIS STORY ABOUT THE GREAT MIGRATION WAS NEVER TALKED ABOUT.

THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED IT DID NOT TALK ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE, DID NOT SHARE IT WITH THEIR CHILDREN, IN SOME WAYS, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT THEY HAD ENDURED THAT HAD BEEN SO PAINFUL THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BURDEN THEIR CHILDREN WITH ALL THAT THEY HAD GONE THROUGH.

AND SO NO ONE TALKED ABOUT THE GREAT MIGRATION IN THE TERMS THAT WE NOW DO.

NO ONE SAID, "REMEMBER WHEN WE CAME UP IN THE GREAT MIGRATION OR REMEMBER WHEN THE GREAT MIGRATION WAS ON?"

IT WAS AN UNSPOKEN REALITY THAT AFFECTED EVERYTHING AND YET NO ONE SPOKE OF IT.

>>LORENE: WHEN I ACTUALLY THROUGH ALL OF MY HISTORY NEVER HEARD OF ANYTHING CALLED THE GREAT MIGRATION AND I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS HAPPENING WHILE I WAS STILL ALIVE.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT WHEN IT WAS, WHO FIRST LOOKED BACK AND SAID, "HEY, WHILE WE WERE DOING OTHER THINGS, THIS HUGE THING HAS BEEN HAPPENING."

SO TELL ME, WHEN, WHO, WHY.

>>ISABEL: WELL THE GREAT MIGRATION WAS THE OUTPOURING OF SIX MILLION BLACK SOUTHERNERS FROM THE SOUTH TO THE NORTH AND THE MIDWEST THAT BEGAN IN WORLD WAR I AND DID NOT END UNTIL THE 1970S.

IT WENT ON FOR SO LONG, IT WENT ON FOR CLOSE TO 60 YEARS, THREE GENERATIONS.

SO MANY PEOPLE LEAVING THAT IT WAS REALLY HARD FOR ANY ONE PERSON TO CAPTURE WHILE IT WAS GOING ON OR EVEN TO RECOGNIZE IN TERMS OF ITS MAGNITUDE BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY RESHAPING OUR COUNTRY EVEN AS IT WAS GOING ON.

>>LORENE: BUT LOOK HOW MUCH HAS BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT TINY MIGRATIONS, THE GOLD RUSH, WHAT, A 100,000.

THE DUST BOWL, MAYBE... >>ISABEL: 300,000.

>>LORENE: 300,000.

THIS IS SIX MILLION.

>>ISABEL: I THINK PART OF IT IS BECAUSE IT WENT ON FOR SO LONG AND BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE PART OF THIS MIGRATION IN SOME WAYS WHEN THEY ARRIVED IN THESE BIG CITIES, THE CITIES BEGAN TO RESPOND TO THE EFFECT OF THEIR BEING THERE.

SO, THE REASONS WHY THEY WERE COMING, THE MOTIVATIONS, THE DREAMS AND ASPIRATIONS THAT THEY HAD, OFTEN GOT LOST.

>>LORENE: IT TOOK YOU 15 YEARS TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

>>ISABEL: YES.

>>LORENE: AND YOU INTERVIEWED OVER 1200 PEOPLE.

>>ISABEL: YES.

>>LORENE: YOU HAVE GOTTEN MORE ACCOLADES AND AWARDS I THINK THAN ANY AUTHOR I HAVE INTERVIEWED.

YOU GOT THE COVER OF THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW, YOU WERE ON THE NEW YORK TIMES BEST SELLER LIST, EVERY NONFICTION AWARD, I CAN'T EVEN NAME THEM ALL.

THE NEW YORK TIMES , EVERY BEST BOOK OF THE YEAR THING AND FINALLY IN 2012, THE NEW YORK TIMES DECIDED WE ARE GOING TO MAKE A LIST OF THE ALL TIME BEST BOOKS OF NONFICTION AND THERE YOU ARE.

>>ISABEL: YEAH.

>>LORENE: ALL TIME.

>>ISABEL: YES.

>>LORENE: CONGRATULATIONS.

>>ISABEL: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW YOU CHOSE IT AND HOW YOU CHOSE TO DO IT THIS WAY.

>>ISABEL: I WANTED TO TELL THE STORY BECAUSE IT WAS EVERYWHERE IN OUR CULTURE.

THIS HAS HAD AN EFFECT ON MUSIC, ON THEATER, ON LITERATURE, ON THE POLITICS, NORTH AND SOUTH, IN SOME WAYS WHY THERE ARE BLUE STATES AND RED STATES IS THAT THE PLACES THAT THEY WENT, THOSE PLACES OFTEN BECAME BLUE BY THEIR ARRIVAL.

THESE PEOPLE WHO HAD NOT BEEN PERMITTED TO VOTE WHERE THEY WERE FROM AND THE DEMOCRATS WERE THE FIRST TO GET TO THEM WHEN THEY ARRIVED.

AND SO IT CHANGED SO MUCH OF OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY AND YET NO ONE WAS REALLY TALKING ABOUT IT IN THESE TERMS AND SO I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND, WHY DID THESE PEOPLE GO, HOW DID THEY MAKE THE DECISION TO LEAVE, WHAT WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND THE CONDITIONS THEY WERE LIVING IN IN THE PLACES THEY WERE COMING FROM AND WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM WHEN THEY ARRIVED.

PART OF THE DESIRE THAT I HAD WAS BECAUSE MY PARENTS WEREN'T TALKING ABOUT IT AND I WANTED TO KNOW WHY, HOW DID I GET HERE, IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL QUESTION THAT ALL OF US MIGHT HAVE.

AND I SET ABOUT TRYING TO GET TO THEM BEFORE IT WAS TOO LATE.

REMEMBER IF THE MIGRATION BEGAN DURING WORLD WAR ONE AND IT BEGAN BECAUSE THE NORTH HAD A LABOR SHORTAGE DURING WORLD WAR I AND THEY BEGAN TO RECRUIT IN THE SOUTH AND THEY HAD TO GO IN SECRET BECAUSE THE SOUTH DIDN'T TAKE KINDLY TO THE POACHING OF ITS CHEAP LABOR.

SO IT MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR NORTHERNERS TO COME IN AND RECRUIT AFRICAN AMERICAN WORKERS.

AND THAT'S HOW IT BEGAN AND SO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THE EARLIEST PEOPLE TO BE PART OF THIS MIGRATION WERE GETTING UP IN YEARS BY THE TIME I STARTED TO LOOK INTO IT, WHICH IS THE LATE 1990S.

SO I BEGAN TO SET ABOUT TRYING TO FIND THEM AS QUICKLY AS I COULD, IT WAS A RACE AGAINST THE CLOCK TO GET >>LORENE: WELL, I WANT TO TRY TO EXPLAIN TO OUR AUDIENCE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE HERE BECAUSE YOU TAKE THE ENTIRE HISTORICAL EPIC, IT IS TRULY AN EPIC OF WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THE JIM CROW LAWS AND WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE SOUTH.

THEN YOU TAKE THREE STORIES, THREE EMBLEMATIC STORIES AND I WILL LET YOU TELL US WHO THEY WERE AND HOW YOU CHOSE THEM AND YOU TRACE THEIR WHOLE LIFE.

HOW THEY FOUND THE COURAGE TO GO OFF, LEAP INTO THE UNKNOWN THE WAY THEY DID.

AND THEIR EXAMPLE OF THREE OF THE STREAMS OF MIGRATION THAT WENT TO DIFFERENT PARTS OF AMERICA AND THEN YOU WRAP IT ALL UP, YOU INCORPORATE ALL THE HISTORY, ALL THE CONTEMPORARY NEWS ACCOUNTS.

AND THEN AT THE BEATING HEART IS THEIR PERSONAL INTIMATE AND COMPELLING STORIES OF THE COMPLETE LIVES OF THESE THREE INDIVIDUALS, WHO WERE THEY AND WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THEM.

>>ISABEL: WELL THE THREE OF THEM REPRESENT AS YOU MENTIONED THE THREE STREAMS OF THIS MIGRATION AND ANY MIGRATION PEOPLE ARE BEAUTIFULLY PREDICTABLE.

I MEAN THE SAME WAY PEOPLE CAME ACROSS THE ATLANTIC TO THE UNITED STATES AND FROM PARTICULAR PARTS OF EUROPE.

MANY PEOPLE OF IRISH DESCENT ENDED UP IN PARTS OF BOSTON OR IN CHICAGO OR IN PARTS OF NEW YORK AND SO THEY WERE BEAUTIFULLY PREDICTABLE AND THESE THREE PEOPLE REPRESENTED THE THREE STREAMS.

THERE WAS ONE PERSON WHO REPRESENTS THE EAST COAST STREAM FROM FLORIDA UP TO NEW YORK, ANOTHER ONE REPRESENTS THE MIDWEST STREAM FROM MISSISSIPPI UP TO THE MIDWEST AND THEN THERE WAS A THIRD STREAM FROM LOUISIANA, TEXAS OUT HERE TO THE WEST AND SO THEY EACH REPRESENT THE STREAMS.

THEY ALSO REPRESENT THREE DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES AND CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH THEY WERE LIVING WHERE THEY WERE.

ONE WAS A SHARECROPPER'S WIFE WHO WAS TERRIBLE AT PICKING COTTON, I LOVE THE FACT THAT SHE WAS BECAUSE IT SHOWS YOU THAT THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE FORCED TO DO THAT.

THERE WAS A MAN WHO HAD BEEN WORKING IN THE CITRUS GROVES AND HE COULD SEE, HE'D HAD A LITTLE BIT OF EDUCATION IN SCHOOL BUT THE MONEY HAD RUN OUT AND SO HE COULD SEE WHEN HE RETURNED TO THE WORK OF CITRUS PICKING THAT THEY WERE BEING CHEATED IN WHAT THEY WERE MAKING.

SO HE SET ABOUT TRYING TO GET BETTER WORKING CONDITIONS AND A LITTLE BIT MORE PAY, FIVE CENTS MORE A BOX FOR A BOX OF FRUIT AND BY DOING THAT HE ESSENTIALLY CONFRONTED AND CHALLENGED THE CASTE SYSTEM WHICH DID NOT PERMIT THAT KIND OF STANDING UP FOR ONESELF AND HE HAD TO FLEE TO NEW YORK ESSENTIALLY FOR HIS LIFE.

AND THEN A THIRD PERSON WAS A PHYSICIAN WHO WAS NOT PERMITTED TO PRACTICE SURGERY IN HIS OWN HOMETOWN EVEN THOUGH HE HAD DONE SO IN THE ARMY AND EUROPE AND SO HE DECIDED THAT HE WAS GOING TO COME OUT WEST, HE WAS FROM LOUISIANA AND HE DECIDED HE WAS GOING TO GO TO CALIFORNIA AND THOSE ARE THE THREE PEOPLE THAT I FOCUS ON.

>>LORENE: AND IN THAT LITTLE ONE SENTENCE, YOU CANNOT GIVE THE EMOTIONALITY, THE DRAMA, I MEAN WHEN I READ THESE STORIES, I REALLY COULD NOT PUT THEM DOWN.

ONE OF THE BIG PRIZES YOU GOT WAS FROM HARVARD AND COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY GAVE YOU SOMETHING CALLED THE LYNTON HISTORY PRIZE, THIS IS WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT YOU, "SHE HAS CREATED A BRILLIANT AND INNOVATIVE PARADOX, AN INTIMATE EPIC."

THESE STORIES ARE SO INTIMATE AND YET IT IS SET AGAINST THIS VAST PANOPLY OF HISTORY, HAS ANYONE EVER DONE THAT BEFORE?

>>ISABEL: I AM NOT AWARE OF THE DEPTH OF TIME THAT IT TOOK OF SPENDING TIME ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS AND IT REALLY IS A COMBINATION OF ETHNOGRAPHY AND ANTHROPOLOGY AND UNDERSTANDING HISTORY AND JUST SPENDING TIME AT THE KNEE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH AND YOU COULDN'T GET ENOUGH OF THEIR STORIES.

THEY HAD A TREMENDOUS SENSE OF COURAGE AND A SENSE OF HUMOR THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT NOT EXPECT IN A BOOK OF THIS KIND.

AND THEY WERE BEAUTIFULLY FLAWED LIKE ANY OF US AND YET HISTORY AND CIRCUMSTANCES IN THEIR LIVES CONVERGED TO FORCE THEM TO HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION AND THE DECISION THEY MADE WAS WHETHER TO STAY OR WHETHER TO GO AND THEY DECIDED TO GO.

>>LORENE: WELL, ONE OF THE OTHER POINTS YOU MAKE IS THAT THIS WAS A LEADERLESS MIGRATION.

ONE BY ONE COURAGEOUSLY INDIVIDUALS DECIDED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO GO AND TRY TO FIND A BETTER LIFE.

>>ISABEL: I THINK THAT ONE REASON WHY IT KIND OF WAS UNDER THE RADAR SCREEN BECAUSE THERE WAS NO LEADER, THERE WAS NOBODY WHO SET THE TIME OR HOUR THAT THE PEOPLE SHOULD GO.

EACH ONE OF THEM IN THEIR OWN LIVES LOOKED AT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AROUND THEM, THEY LOOKED IN THE VERY DANGEROUS AND TERRIFYING WORLD IN WHICH IT WAS ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW WE DIDN'T GET TO THIS, BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY AGAINST THE LAW FOR A BLACK PERSON AND A WHITE PERSON TO MERELY PLAY CHECKERS TOGETHER IN BIRMINGHAM.

THE BIBLE ITSELF WAS SEGREGATED IN COURTROOMS, THEY COULDN'T TOUCH, WITNESSES COULDN'T TOUCH THE SAME BIBLE.

>>LORENE: SO THEY HAD TO SWEAR TO THE TRUTH OF SOMETHING ON A BLACK BIBLE FOR ONLY BLACK PEOPLE.

>>ISABEL: YES, THEY COULDN'T TOUCH THE SAME BIBLE.

SO THERE WERE SUCH ARCANE RULES THAT WERE IN FORCE WITH SUCH A SENSE OF VIOLENCE THAT THEY WERE LIVING IN A WORLD THAT IS HARD FOR US TO IMAGINE TODAY.

AND SO WHEN THEY DECIDED TO LEAVE, THEY WERE LEAVING ONE BY ONE BY ONE, IN FACT MANY OF THEM COULD NOT DECLARE THAT THEY WERE LEAVING, THEY HAD TO LEAVE IN SECRET IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, MANY OF THEM WERE RUNNING FOR THEIR LIVES ESSENTIALLY IF THEY GOT ON THE WRONG SIDE OF SOMEONE IN THE CASTE SYSTEM THAT THEY WERE UNDER.

IT DIDN'T TAKE MUCH TO, YOU KNOW AS A MATTER OF NOT TIPPING ONE'S HAT WHEN THEY RAN ACROSS SOMEONE OF THE UPPER CASTE OR IF THEY DIDN'T STEP OFF THE SIDEWALK QUICKLY ENOUGH, ANY INFRACTION COULD LITERALLY MEAN YOUR LIFE.

AND SO THOSE ARE THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT THEY WERE LEAVING WHEN THEY WERE PART OF THIS.

>>LORENE: HISTORY HAS JUST KIND OF NOT EXACTLY PRETTIFIED IT BECAUSE WE KNOW ABOUT LYNCHINGS, BUT THE RANDOMNESS AND THE ARBITRARINESS OF WHEN YOU COULD BE BEATEN TO DEATH FOR JUST BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.

THE REAL HORROR OF THAT WAS KIND OF THE FLOOR OF THEIR LIFE AND THERE WAS ALWAYS THIS RANDOM LIKE YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T TIP YOUR HAT FAST ENOUGH.

>>ISABEL: IT WAS SAID AT THE TIME, IT WAS SAID THIS IS BASICALLY A STORY ABOUT LIFE IN THE 20TH CENTURY.

THE FIRST TWO THIRDS OF THE 20TH CENTURY WITHIN THE LIFE SPAN OF MANY, MANY MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ALIVE TODAY AND SO WHAT THIS IS REALLY SAYING IS THAT IN SOME WAYS SOME OF THE MORE TERRIFYING ASPECTS OF THINGS THAT MADE LIFE SO MUCH MORE DIFFICULT THAN IT NEEDED TO BE AND ESSENTIALLY SET IN MOTION A LOT OF THE CONFLICT THAT WE EVEN HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY TODAY, OCCURRED BECAUSE OF THE SMALLNESS OF IT.

IN FACT THE SMALLER, PRESUMABLY INSIGNIFICANT, THINGS ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS YOU COULD LOSE YOUR LIFE FOR.

FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE MORE COMMON REASON FOR LYNCHING WERE NOT FOR THE LARGER THINGS SUCH AS SOME UNTOWARD REMARK TOWARD A WHITE WOMAN WHICH OF COURSE HAPPENED WITH EMMETT TILL, BUT FOR THE SMALLER THINGS.

SOMETIMES THE BIGGEST AND THE MOST COMMON REASON FOR LOSING ONE'S LIFE WOULD BE FOR THE ACCUSATION OF ACTING LIKE A WHITE PERSON, FOR THAT YOU COULD LOSE YOUR LIFE AND MANY, MANY PEOPLE DID.

AND SO THAT MEANT ANY NUMBER OF THINGS, OF NOT GETTING OFF THE ROAD, NOT STOPPING FOR A WHITE MOTORIST QUICKLY ENOUGH, IT WAS A MERCURIAL NERVE JANGLING WORLD IN WHICH TO LIVE AND I THINK IT IS THOSE EVERYDAY TERRORS AND FEARS THAT ACTUALLY MADE IT MORE OPPRESSIVE THAN WE MIGHT IMAGINE OTHERWISE.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH ISABEL WILKERSON WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF THIS WONDERFUL BOOK THE WARMTH OF OTHER SUNS, THE EPIC STORY OF AMERICA'S GREAT MIGRATION .

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT IMMIGRANTS AND MIGRATION WAS POINTED OUT IN THE 20S, WAS THAT THE NEGROES ALONE OF ALL OF OUR IMMIGRANTS, CAME TO AMERICA AGAINST THEIR WILL.

SO HERE ARE THESE PEOPLE YOU KNOW CAPTURED, BROUGHT IN BONDAGE TO BE SLAVES AND THEN THROUGH, WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS, WHAT WAS TRICKLING DOWN FOR THEM TO REALIZE BESIDES THE TERROR, THAT THAT WAIT A MINUTE, SHOULDN'T I BE ABLE TO VOTE, SHOULDN'T I BE ABLE TO EDUCATE MY CHILDREN, SHOULDN'T I BE ABLE TO GET AN EDUCATION, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WITH GEORGE STARLING.

IF HE HAD HAD AN EDUCATION HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FINISH, HIS WHOLE LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT.

>>ISABEL: TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

YOU KNOW THE THING IS THAT AS LONG AS THERE WAS SLAVERY, THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO LEAVE, THERE WERE ALWAYS SLAVES WHO WERE ATTEMPTING TO ESCAPE AND MANY OF THEM WERE TRYING TO GET TO CANADA, THERE WAS THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD THAT HELPED TO FERRY OUT MANY, MANY PEOPLE.

SO THERE HAD ALWAYS BEEN A DESIRE TO LEAVE BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL THE NORTH BEGAN TO ACTIVELY RECRUIT THAT THE TRUE CONNECTION, NORTH AND SOUTH, THE TRUE POSSIBILITIES OF FREEDOM BECKONED FOR THEM.

AND WHEN THAT CALL CAME, THEY BEGAN TO ANSWER TO SUCH A DEGREE AND WITH SUCH FORCEFULNESS THAT ACTUALLY IT GOT TO THE POINT WHERE THE NORTH DIDN'T HAVE TO RECRUIT ANYMORE.

ONCE THE FIRST FEW PEOPLE ARRIVED THEN THEY SENT FOR THEIR RELATIVES, THEIR COUSINS, THEIR NEPHEWS, THEIR YOUNGER BROTHERS AND SISTERS AS WAS ALSO THE CASE AMONG IMMIGRANTS TO THIS COUNTRY AND THUS THERE WAS AN ENTIRE DELUGE OF PEOPLE ARRIVING.

>>LORENE: PEOPLE ASK YOU, WHAT ARE THE LESSONS FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS TODAY AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY IS SIT DOWN WITH YOUR GRANDPARENTS, REALLY ASK THEM ABOUT THEIR STORY.

>>ISABEL: WELL I SEE LESSONS FOR ALL AMERICANS, I MEAN THE BOOK IS, YOU KNOW, THE SUBTITLE IS THE EPIC STORY OF AMERICA'S GREAT MIGRATION , BUT IN SOME WAYS IT'S ABOUT THE SEARCH FOR FREEDOM AND HOW FAR PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO GO TO GET IT.

AND THAT IS HOW YOU KNOW THIS COUNTRY GOT THE LARGE POPULATION IT HAS BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FOR FREEDOM AND THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO WITHIN THEIR OWN COUNTRY HAD TO FIND FREEDOM IN OTHER PARTS OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

THIS IS THE ONLY GROUP OF PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY THAT HAS EVER HAD TO ACT AS IMMIGRANTS IN ORDER TO BE RECOGNIZED AS CITIZENS WITHIN THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND THAT SHOWS YOU HOW BADLY THESE PEOPLE WANTED TO BE FREE LIKE ANY OTHER AMERICAN.

>>LORENE: BUT WE STILL SEE INFRINGEMENTS ON FREEDOM NOW, I AM THINKING OF THE STOP AND FRISK LAWS IN NEW YORK AND DRIVING WHILE BLACK OR BROWN, THERE IS NO OTHER, THERE IS NO NORTH TO GO TO.

HOW CAN WE MAKE THOSE CHANGES AND AT THE CORE OF THAT QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE GREAT MIGRATION AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT?

>>ISABEL: THAT IS SUCH A GREAT QUESTION, THAT IS A BIG QUESTION, WOW.

FIRST OF ALL WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM IT AND WHAT DO WE DO.

PART OF THE REALITY IS AS A COUNTRY WE HAVE NOT DEALT WITH THESE REALLY PAINFUL, DEEP SEATED, VERY LONG RUNNING DIVISIONS AND PROBLEMS.

THIS IS AS IF WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TRAGEDY IN THE FAMILY AND WE HAVE NEVER DEALT WITH IT, NEVER EVER DEALT WITH IT.

THERE HAS BEEN NO TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION AND YET ALL AMERICANS BEAR THE SCARS OF WHAT HAPPENED, BECAUSE THIS HAPPENED ON OUR SOIL, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, IT HAPPENED RIGHT HERE.

AND THERE ARE DESCENDANTS OF REALLY HARSH, TERRIFYING REALITIES THAT ARE HERE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY AND WE HAVE NOT DEALT WITH IT.

SECONDLY, YOU CAN CHANGE THE LAWS BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU CHANGE THE HEARTS AND THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THIS GREAT MIGRATION AND THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT IS THAT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED EVENTUALLY.

BUT THIS MASS DEFECTION OF SIX MILLION PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN THE BEDROCK OF THE WORKING CLASS, THE BEDROCK OF THE ECONOMY OF THE SOUTH, WHEN THEY DEFECTED IN THE WAYS THAT THEY DID, SOUGHT POLITICAL ASYLUM YOU MIGHT SAY WITHIN THE BORDERS OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY, THAT HAD A TREMENDOUS EFFECT ON WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN NORTH AND SOUTH.

THE NORTH WAS THEN DEALING WITH THE ARRIVAL OF SO MANY PEOPLE THEY REALLY WERE NOT PREPARED FOR AND THE SOUTH WAS DEALING WITH WHAT DID IT MEAN TO HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE IN SOME WAYS VOTING WITH THEIR FEET.

IT WAS A REFERENDUM ON HOW THE PEOPLE WERE BEING TREATED.

AND SO TOGETHER, THAT IN SOME WAYS PROPELLED WHAT WE NOW VIEW AS THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, IT WAS A PRECURSOR TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO MADE THEIR POLITICAL WILL KNOWN THROUGH THEIR MIGRATION THAT IT PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON BOTH THE NORTH AND SOUTH.

>>LORENE: I WANT TO FLESH THAT OUT WITH SOME NUMBERS BECAUSE BEFORE THE GREAT MIGRATION, 90 PERCENT OF THE BLACKS IN AMERICA WERE IN THE SOUTH, AFTER 50 PERCENT OF THE BLACKS IN AMERICA WERE NOT IN THE SOUTH.

>>ISABEL: THEY WERE SPREAD OUT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

>>LORENE: THAT'S HUGE.

>>ISABEL: THAT'S HUGE, IT'S A TOTAL REDISTRIBUTION OF AN ENTIRE PEOPLE AND SO WHEN THOSE PEOPLE MADE THAT DECISION AND REMEMBER IT WAS A LEAP OF FAITH, MANY OF THEM HAD NEVER BEEN OUTSIDE THE COUNTY INTO WHICH THEY HAD BEEN BORN.

THERE WAS NO GOOGLE, THEY COULDN'T GOOGLE UP WHAT DOES CINCINNATI LOOK LIKE, THEY HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING AND SO THEY WERE JUST MAKING THIS GREAT LEAP OF FAITH AND TO ME I THINK THAT IS INDICATIVE OF JUST HOW BADLY THEY WANTED TO BE FREE.

>>LORENE: SOME OF THE EFFECTS, LET'S LOOK AT HOW OUR COUNTRY IS DIFFERENT NOW, I AM THINKING ABOUT MUSIC, LANGUAGE, CULTURE, CITIES, IT CHANGED THE NATURE OF CITIES.

>>ISABEL: IT CHANGED THE NATURE OF THE POLITICS OF ALMOST EVERY NORTHERN AND WESTERN CITY BECAUSE THE ARRIVAL OF SO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAD NEVER BEEN ALLOWED TO VOTE BEFORE NOW SUDDENLY COULD VOTE.

AND IT WAS A QUESTION OF, IT WAS A TOSS-UP OF WHICH PARTY WOULD GET TO THEM FIRST, THE DEMOCRATS GOT TO THEM FIRST.

THEY WOULD HAVE LIKELY HAVE BEEN REPUBLICAN BECAUSE IT WAS THE PARTY OF LINCOLN BUT THE DEMOCRATS GOT TO THEM FIRST AND THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE HAVE BLUE STATES AND RED STATES IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

SECONDLY, WHEN IT COMES TO CULTURE, REALLY 20TH CENTURY AMERICAN CULTURE AS WE KNOW IT, PARTICULARLY THAT THAT EMANATED FROM THE CITIES IS REALLY THE CULTURE OF THE GREAT MIGRATION.

SO MUCH OF WHAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED AS JUST THE WAY THINGS ARE, ACTUALLY CAME AS A RESULT OF THE GREAT MIGRATION.

MUSIC AS WE KNOW IT WOULD BE SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT HAD THESE PEOPLE NOT MIGRATED, BROUGHT WITH THEM THE MUSIC THAT HAD SUSTAINED THEM, THE BLUES, THE SPIRITUALS AND THE GOSPEL MUSIC THAT HAD SUSTAINED THEM ALL THAT TIME AND THEN CHANGED IT INTO SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND NEW, THE KIDS DID, SOME OF THEM.

YOU HAVE MOTOWN WHICH WOULD NEVER HAVE EXISTED IF THERE HAD BEEN NO GREAT MIGRATION, BARRY GORDY, HIS PARENTS WERE FROM GEORGIA, THEY MIGRATED TO DETROIT AND THAT IS WHERE HE RECRUITED PEOPLE WHO ALSO ARE HOUSEHOLD NAMES, DIANA ROSS, MICHAEL JACKSON, THE TEMPTATIONS, MARVIN GAYE, ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE CHILDREN OF THE GREAT MIGRATION, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WERE CHILDREN OF THE GREAT MIGRATION.

WHEN IT COMES TO JAZZ, JAZZ AS WE KNOW IT SIMPLY WOULD NOT HAVE EXISTED.

>>LORENE: MILES DAVIS.

>>ISABEL: MILES DAVIS' PARENTS WERE FROM ARKANSAS, MIGRATED TO ILLINOIS, HE GOT THE LUXURY OF BEING ABLE TO SPEND TIME HONING THE GENIUS THAT WAS WITHIN HIM BUT WHICH MIGHT HAVE GONE FOUL IN THE COTTON COUNTRY OF ARKANSAS.

THELONIOUS MONK, HIS PARENTS WERE FROM NORTH CAROLINA, MIGRATED TO NEW YORK WHEN HE WAS FOUR YEARS OLD, THAT IS WHERE HIS MOTHER SAVED UP TO GET HIM A USED PIANO AND THE REST IS HISTORY.

JOHN COLTRANE, JOHN COLTRANE, HIMSELF, MIGRATED AT AGE 16 FROM NORTH CAROLINA TO PHILADELPHIA WHERE BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT WAS NOT UNTIL HE GOT TO PHILADELPHIA THAT HE GOT HIS FIRST ALTO SAX, THESE ARE JUST SOME OF THE NAMES.

FROM TONY MORRISON TO AUGUST WILSON, THESE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF THE MIGRATION WHO NOT ONLY EXISTED AND GOT OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE OF THIS MIGRATION, BUT ACTUALLY CHANGED 20TH CENTURY CULTURE AS WE KNOW IT BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY WERE NOW FREE TO DO THAT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO HAD THERE BEEN NO GREAT MIGRATION.

>>LORENE: AND SPEAKING OF MUSICIANS, ONE OF THE MAIN STORIES THAT YOU DO, ROBERT PERSHING FOSTER, WAS THE PHYSICIAN TO RAY CHARLES.

>>ISABEL: WHO WAS ALSO PART OF THE GREAT MIGRATION.

>>LORENE: YES, YES AND THEY BOTH HAD PARALLEL LIFE STORIES.

THEY BOTH ENDED UP IN LA AND HE ONCE, YOU KNOW, HAD A TERRIBLE INJURY TO HIS PIANO HANDS AND DOCTOR FOSTER.

>>ISABEL: IT COULD HAVE ENDANGERED HIS LIFE ACTUALLY IT WAS A VERY SERIOUS SITUATION THAT HE WAS IN, BROADWAY CHARLES.

>>LORENE: YOUR GENTLEMAN, ONE OF THE THREE STORIES HERE, HELPED HIM AND THEN HE WROTE A SONG ABOUT HIM, CALLED "HIDE NOR HAIR," I MEAN IT IS JUST WONDERFUL THE WAY IT KEEPS EXPANDING AND KEEPS EXPANDING AND KEEPS EXPANDING.

I WAS WONDERING IF YOU WOULD TAKE A MOMENT TO READ US JUST THAT BIT OF THE POEM FROM WHICH YOU TOOK THE TITLE OF THIS BOOK, THE WARMTH OF OTHER SUNS .

>>ISABEL: YES, IT COMES FROM THE WORDS OF RICHARD WRIGHT, WHO WAS ALSO PART OF THE GREAT MIGRATION AND HE WROTE NATIVE SON AND HE LEFT MISSISSIPPI FOR CHICAGO IN 1927.

AND SO HE WROTE THESE WORDS AS HE WAS CONTEMPLATING HIS MOMENT OF DEPARTURE FROM THIS PLACE HE HAD KNOWN FOR A PLACE HE HAD NEVER SEEN AND HE WROTE, "I WAS LEAVING THE SOUTH TO FLING MYSELF INTO THE UNKNOWN, I WAS TAKING A PART OF THE SOUTH TO TRANSPLANT IN ALIEN SOIL TO SEE IF IT COULD GROW DIFFERENTLY, IF IT COULD DRINK OF NEW AND COOL RAINS, BEND IN STRANGE WINDS, RESPOND TO THE WARMTH OF OTHER SUNS, AND PERHAPS, JUST PERHAPS, TO BLOOM."

>>LORENE: OH, THAT IS SO BEAUTIFUL AND IT MAKES ME THINK WHAT OTHER SUNS ARE THERE?

HERE IS THIS HUGE PIECE OF MY HISTORY, OF AMERICAN HISTORY, THAT I KIND OF JUST DIDN'T GET HOW BIG IT WAS.

AND SO WHAT OTHER WORLDS ARE THERE, WHAT OTHER SUNS FOR US TO BLOOM UNDER, WHAT OTHER HUGE UNREPORTED STORIES ARE OUT THERE?

AND ARE YOU WORKING, ARE YOU LOOKING, YOU HAVE SPENT FIFTEEN YEARS, YOU GET SOME TIME OFF.

>>ISABEL: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: ARE THERE OTHER STORIES THAT CALL TO YOU THE WAY THIS EPIC STORY CALLED TO YOU?

>>ISABEL: WELL I DO PLAN TO CONTINUE WRITING BUT FOR NOW THE BOOK HAS JUST TAKEN OVER MY LIFE.

I HAVE LITERALLY BEEN FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA TO AMSTERDAM IN THE NETHERLANDS TALKING ABOUT THIS BOOK, IT HAS SORT OF TAKEN OVER MY LIFE AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STAYS WITH ME GETS TO YOUR OTHER QUESTION AND THAT IS WHAT ARE THE OTHER SUNS AND I THINK THAT AS I CONTEMPLATE THAT PASSAGE THAT I READ TO YOU FROM RICHARD WRIGHT AND I HAVE GONE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND EVEN OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY TALKING ABOUT IT, I AM CONVINCED THAT ACTUALLY THE REAL LESSON OF ALL OF THIS FOR THOSE WHO SUCCEEDED IN THIS MIGRATION OR ANY MIGRATION IS THAT THE SUN WAS WITHIN THEM ALL ALONG.

THERE ARE NO OTHER PLACES TO GO, IT IS A FINITE PLANET AND WE HAVE TO FIND THE SUN WITHIN US.

>>LORENE: WELL, SO YOUR ADVICE THEN TO YOUNG PEOPLE.

>>ISABEL: YOU KNOW, I THINK WE NEED A NEW DEFINITION OF HERO TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE ALL HAVE STRENGTHS WITHIN ALL OF OUR FAMILIES OTHERWISE WE WOULDN'T BE HERE.

WE ARE ALL DESCENDANTS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE SURVIVED SO MUCH MORE THAN WE CAN EVEN IMAGINE.

AND TO ME THE LESSON WOULD BE THAT WE GO BACK AND HEAR THOSE STORIES WITHIN OUR OWN FAMILIES WITHOUT LOOKING, NOT ALWAYS LOOKING TO THE OUTSIDE.

REMEMBER THIS WAS A LEADERLESS REVOLUTION, THEY DIDN'T LOOK TO LEADERS TO SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS, THEY TOOK IT UPON THEMSELVES.

THEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND THEY TOOK IT UPON THEMSELVES TO SAY, "IN THIS WORLD THAT WE ARE IN, OUR WORK IS DEVALUED AND OUR VERY LIVES ARE DEVALUED, PERHAPS WE WILL FARE BETTER ELSEWHERE" AND THEY SET OUT FOR SOMETHING BETTER.

AND I THINK THAT THEY ARE TELLING US SOMETHING, THERE IS SOMETHING, SOME MESSAGE THAT THEY ARE TELLING US AND THAT IS THAT THE ANSWERS AND THE STRENGTHS ARE WITHIN US AND WITHIN OUR OWN FAMILIES AND OUR STORIES.

WE HAVE HIGHER SELF-ESTEEM IN CHILDREN WHEN THEY KNOW THEIR OWN FAMILY STORY, THEIR OWN FAMILY STORIES, HOW DID WE SURVIVE, HOW DID WE GET HERE, GET WHERE WE ARE, WHO ARE WE?

>>LORENE: AND TO RESPECT OUR ANCESTORS, OUR GRANDPARENTS AND THE CHOICES AND THE COURAGE THAT IT TOOK.

>>ISABEL: THE COURAGE THAT THEY ALL HAD.

>>LORENE: YES, TO FIND THE WARMTH OF OTHER SUNS.

I AM SO HAPPY THAT YOU HAVE BEEN WITH US TODAY.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS ISABEL WILKERSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>ISABEL: THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: AND I CANNOT RECOMMEND THIS HIGHLY ENOUGH, THE WARMTH OF OTHER SUNS , IT'S THE EPIC STORY OF THE GREAT MIGRATION.

ONCE YOU START THIS BOOK YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PUT IT DOWN, IT IS REALLY COMPELLING AND A TREMENDOUS GIFT TO US, THANK YOU.

>>ISABEL: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .