REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS JOHN FLECK WHO IS THE PROFESSOR OF PRACTICE IN WATER POLICY AND GOVERNANCE AT THE UNM ECONOMICS SCHOOL.

HE IS ALSO THE WRITER IN RESIDENCE AT THE UTTON CENTER AT THE UNM SCHOOL OF LAW, HE IS A FORMER SCIENCE JOURNALIST, WHO FROM THE 80S WHO HAS BEEN COVERING WATER.

IN THE 80S, HE WROTE ABOUT THE METROPOLITAN WATER DISTRICT IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, A VERY CHALLENGING WATER SITUATION.

BUT WE ARE REALLY HAPPY TO HAVE HIM JOIN US TODAY, THANK YOU, JOHN.

>>JOHN: THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: WELL, I AM A FAN OF YOUR BOOKS.

YOUR FIRST BOOK WHOSE TITLE I LOVE, I DON'T HAVE ITS COVER, BUT IT'S CALLED, SCIENCE BE DAMMED: HOW IGNORING INCONVENIENT SCIENCE DRAINED THE COLORADO RIVER , WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT IN A MINUTE.

THE OTHER BOOK THAT I JUST LOVE IS WATER IS FOR FIGHTING OVER .

NOW IT IS BASED ON AN OLD SAYING IN THE WEST, "WHISKEY IS FOR DRINKING, BUT WATER IS FOR FIGHTING" AND THE SUBTITLE OF THAT IS, OTHER MYTHS ABOUT WATER IN THE WEST.

SO, COULD YOU TELL ME ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER MYTHS ABOUT WATER IN THE WEST?

>>JOHN: SO THE STORY OF THE TITLE IS ACTUALLY KIND OF FUN.

EMILY TURNER WHO IS MY EDITOR AT ISLAND PRESS WAS WORKING WITH ME ON THE BOOK AND I WOULD SEND EMILY CHAPTERS AS I WAS WRITING THE BOOK AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVE TO DO AS A WRITER IS TRY TO IMAGINE AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR AUDIENCE KNOWS OR THINKS THEY KNOW THAT MIGHT BE WRONG AND START THERE AND LEAD READERS TO NEW KNOWLEDGE.

AND SO WHAT I WAS DOING IN ALL THESE CHAPTERS THAT I WAS SENDING EMILY IS SORT OF STARTING WITH THINGS THAT WE THINK A LOT ABOUT WATER IN THE WEST BUT TURN OUT TO BE WRONG.

AND EMILY WAS THE ONE WHO POINTED OUT TO ME THAT I WAS DOING THIS.

CHAPTER AFTER CHAPTER WOULD HAVE ONE OF THESE THINGS GOING ON IN IT AND EMILY SAID TO ME ABOUT THREE OR FOUR CHAPTERS INTO THE BOOK, "DO YOU REALIZE THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING, JOHN, YOU ARE JUST DEBUNKING ALL THESE MYTHS.

SO LET'S START LOOKING FOR THEM AND HIGHLIGHTING THEM."

AND SO THE CLASSIC AND MOST IMPORTANT MYTH, WHICH SITS AT THE ROOT OF A LOT OF OUR PROBLEMS IN WATER MANAGEMENT IN THE WESTERN UNITED STATES AND MORE BROADLY, IS THE OLD SAW "THAT WHISKEY IS FOR DRINKING AND WATER IS FOR FIGHTING OVER," IT IS OFTEN ATTRIBUTED TO MARK TWAIN.

MARK TWAIN NEVER SEEMS TO HAVE SAID IT BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, IT'S MOST OFTEN NOT TRUE AND THERE IS A LOT OF REALLY INTERESTING SCHOLARSHIP THAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK.

SOCIAL SCIENTISTS WHO HAVE LOOKED AT CONFLICTS OVER WATER, WHERE PEOPLE SHARE A RIVER BORDER OR GROUND WATER THAT IS ON BOTH SIDES OF AN INTERNATIONAL BORDER, THE RIVER GOES FROM ONE COUNTRY TO ANOTHER.

WE THINK THAT WATER IS A SOURCE OF CONFLICT, BUT MORE OFTEN WHAT THE SCHOLARS FIND IS THAT COMMUNITIES SHARING A WATER RESOURCE FAR MORE FREQUENTLY FIGURE OUT HOW TO COLLABORATE TO SHARE THE WATER RESOURCE OFTEN IN WAYS THAT HELP THEM LEARN HOW TO WORK TOGETHER AND DEAL WITH MUCH BROADER PROBLEMS.

AND SO EMILY WAS THE ONE WHO POINTED OUT THAT I WAS DOING THIS AND SORT OF HELPED ME SHAPE THAT SORT OF ONGOING THEME OF THE BOOK BECAUSE, IN FACT, IN THE WEST FAR MORE OFTEN WE COLLABORATE AND SHARE WATER.

WE HAVE THESE INTERSTATE COMPACTS WHERE WE SHARE WATER ACROSS BORDERS, WE JUGGLE OUR GROUNDWATER PUMPING SO THAT I WON'T PUMP SO MUCH THAT IT WILL HARM MY NEIGHBORS.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS FAR MORE OFTEN AND SO THAT IS SORT OF AN IDEA THAT SITS AT THE ROOT OF THIS BOOK.

IT IS A BOOK ABOUT THE PROBLEMS AND THE CHALLENGES OF THE COLORADO RIVER BASIN, BUT IT FOCUSES ON THINGS THAT PEOPLE DO AND HAVE DONE AND CAN DO IN THE FUTURE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO COLLABORATE AND SHARE THE RESOURCE IN A WAY THAT WE CAN SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS COLLABORATIVELY IN COOPERATING RATHER THAN GOING TO COURT AND FIGHTING OVER IT IN LAWSUITS AND LITIGATION.

IT JUST WORKS A WHOLE LOT BETTER IF YOU COLLABORATE, SO BOTH THE DESCRIPTION OF COLLABORATION THAT HAS HAPPENED AND IT IS A CALL FOR COLLABORATION IN THE FUTURE.

LIKE IT WORKS A LOT BETTER IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET ALONG AND SHARE STUFF.

LIKE THAT'S LIKE KINDERGARTEN PLAYGROUND SKILL SET, RIGHT AND IT WORKS PRETTY WELL.

>>LORENE: WELL, I THINK THAT IS THE REAL GIFT OF THIS BOOK BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS THINK ABOUT WATER WARS AND COMPETITION BETWEEN URBAN AND RURAL AND AGRICULTURE AND EARLY DESIRES FOR WATER.

BUT YOU HAD A WONDERFUL SECTION THAT YOU RECENTLY WROTE ABOUT CALLED, "LINKING FAUCETS AND FORESTS" AND TO REALLY REALIZE HOW MANY COMMUNITIES EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE WAY DOWN STREAM FROM THE WATERSHED ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN FOREST RESTORATION AND WAYS TO ASSURE THE LONG-TERM SUPPLY OF THEIR LONG-TERM AVAILABILITY OF THE WATER SUPPLY.

SO MAYBE ALL THAT STUFF ABOUT THE URBAN AND RURAL SOCIAL CONTRACT AND THE URBAN AND RURAL COMPETITION FOR THE WATER IS NOT ALL THAT.

I MEAN REALLY DON'T WE SEE MANY MORE EXAMPLES OF COLLABORATION?

>>JOHN: YEAH.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I TALK ABOUT IN WATERS FOR FIGHTING OVER , IT ACTUALLY COMES UP IN SCIENCE BE DAMMED AS WELL, IS THE IMPORTANT PAST RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN RURAL COMMUNITIES, LARGELY AGRICULTURAL, THAT HAVE THESE LARGE WATER SUPPLIES AND NEED LARGE SUPPLIES, IT'S THE CORE OF THEIR ECONOMY, IRRIGATED AGRICULTURE AND THE CITIES THAT FIRST OF ALL DEPEND ON FOOD GROWN IN RURAL COMMUNITIES LIKE RURAL COMMUNITIES PROVIDE THE RESOURCES THAT CITIES NEED TO SURVIVE THE CITIES.

AND WHEN WATER GETS SCARCE, THERE ARE FEARS IN RURAL COMMUNITIES THAT THE CITIES ARE GOING TO COME AFTER THE RURAL COMMUNITY IRRIGATION WATER.ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN CITIES MAY NOT REALIZE IS THAT 80 PERCENT OF THE WATER IN THE WESTERN UNITED STATES THAT IS USED BY HUMANS IS TAKEN OUT OF RIVERS AND THE GROUND AND USED BY HUMANS IS FOR IRRIGATED AGRICULTURE, IT'S A RELATIVELY SMALL PART OF OUR ECONOMY, IT IS A RELATIVELY LARGE PART OF THE WATER SUPPLY AND IT'S CRUCIAL TO THE FUTURE OF THESE RURAL COMMUNITIES.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS REALLY BEEN SUCCESSFUL THAT IS AN EXAMPLE OF COOPERATING AND COLLABORATING AND SHARING IS AGREEMENTS WHERE CITIES COME TO THESE RURAL COMMUNITIES AND PAY THEM FOR IRRIGATION EFFICIENCY IMPROVEMENTS WHICH CAN REALLY BE EXPENSIVE AND THAT CONSERVES THE WATER THAT ALLOWS THE RELIABILITY OF THE SUPPLY FOR THE BIG CITIES.

THIS IS ESPECIALLY GOING ON IN LOS ANGELES IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, AND LOS ANGELES AND SAN DIEGO, VERY ACTIVE IN THIS AREA, A LOT OF WORK IN THIS AREA NOW GOING ON TO TRY TO COME UP WITH PROGRAMS LIKE THIS IN ARIZONA, IN WESTERN COLORADO, IN UTAH, IN WYOMING.

AND IF WE CAN COLLABORATE RATHER THAN FIGHTING OVER THIS, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE RELATED MYTHS I THINK OF IT AS A KIND OF SUB-MYTH OF WATERS FOR FIGHTING OVER IS THE NOTION THAT WATER FLOWS UPHILL TOWARDS MONEY.

>>LORENE: AH, YES.

>>JOHN: COMPLICIT IN THIS IDEA IS THAT RICH, BIG CITY COMMUNITIES, WILL JUST COME IN AND TAKE WATER AWAY FROM POOR COMMUNITIES.

AND MY FAVORITE EXAMPLE AND I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK WATERS FOR FIGHTING OVER , IS LAS VEGAS, NEVADA, WHICH HAS A VERY SMALL ALLOCATION OF WATER, BIG CITY, TWO MILLION PEOPLE, ENORMOUSLY SUCCESSFUL IN WATER CONSERVATION, ONE OF THE MODELS FOR WATER CONSERVATION IN THE WEST.

YOU KNOW, FOR NEW MEXICANS WITH ALBUQUERQUE AND SANTA FE I THINK ARE REALLY GREAT WATER CONSERVATION MODELS AS WELL.

AND THE COLORADO RIVER FLOWS RIGHT BY LAS VEGAS TO DESERT AGRICULTURE IN CALIFORNIA AND ARIZONA AND THE DESERT AGRICULTURE GETS TEN TIMES AS MUCH WATER AS LAS VEGAS DOES.

LAS VEGAS IS SUPER RICH, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE A WAY TO STEAL THE WATER AWAY FROM THOSE FARMERS DOWN IN THE IMPERIAL VALLEY OR IN YUMA GROWING THE LETTUCE THAT WE LOVE TO EAT.

SO WATER OFTEN DOESN'T FLOW UPHILL TOWARDS MONEY, INSTEAD, WE HAVE TO DO THESE COLLABORATIVE ARRANGEMENTS AND PEOPLE IN RURAL COMMUNITIES OFTEN ARE SCARED ABOUT THIS AND THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I TRIED TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THE BOOK AND GET ACROSS TO READERS IN RURAL COMMUNITIES WHO WERE PART OF MY INTENDED AUDIENCES, LOOK, YOU MAY BE AFRAID THAT THEY ARE COMING FOR YOUR WATER BUT THEY CAN'T, THE LAW PROTECTS YOU AND COLLABORATION IS A GOOD ALTERNATIVE.

WE CAN GET MONEY FLOWING FROM THE CITIES INTO THESE RURAL COMMUNITIES FOR THE THINGS THAT THEY NEED IN RETURN FOR A LITTLE BIT OF THE WATER AND COLLABORATE AND COOPERATE INSTEAD OF FIGHTING OVER IT.

>>LORENE: ONE OF MY FAVORITE WAYS OF COOPERATION THAT YOU BROUGHT UP IN YOUR BOOK WAS THAT AGRICULTURE CAN MODIFY SOME OF ITS CROPS AND TECHNIQUES AND GO TO LOW WATER USE PLANTS AS THE BEST EXAMPLE IN NEW MEXICO MIGHT BE PECANS OR EVEN IN CALIFORNIA, BECAUSE NUT CROPS ARE REALLY HIGH-WATER USAGE AND SO WHEN CALIFORNIA PUT IN VERY SEVERE WATER RESTRICTIONS THE ALMOND ORCHARDS GREW BY 78 PERCENT INSTEAD OF CLOSING DOWN.

SO, CALIFORNIA GROWS 82 PERCENT OF THE ALMONDS IN THE WORLD AND EXPORTS MOST OF IT AND IT IS IN EFFECT EXPORTING 80 BILLION GALLONS OF CALIFORNIA LIMITED WATER SUPPLY ABROAD TO SUPPLY ALL THESE ALMONDS AND SO THERE HAVE BEEN EFFORTS NOW TO MODIFY THE CROPS TO USE LESS WATER INTENSIVE CROPS NOT SO MANY NUTS.

>>JOHN: YEAH.

>>LORENE: WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE NUTS?

>>JOHN: THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WITH MY UNM ECONOMICS DEPARTMENT HAT ON, NOT ACTUALLY AN ECONOMIST, BUT I WORK WITH THE ECONOMISTS OVER IN THE ECONOMICS DEPARTMENT IN THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT REALLY CLOSELY IS HOW FARMERS AS ECONOMIC ACTORS, THEY ARE PROFIT MAXIMIZING, ECONOMIC ACTORS, THEY ARE IN THE DESERTS OF CALIFORNIA.

HOW THEY IN FACT BEHAVE WHEN THERE IS LESS WATER AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE FOUND IS THAT AS THE WATER SUPPLY SHRINKS, WHAT THE FARMERS DO WITHOUT ANYONE FORCING THEM TO OR TELLING THEM TO, IS REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF ACREAGE THAT GETS PLANTED IN THE LOWEST DOLLAR VALUE CROPS SO IF THERE IS PLENTY OF LAND AND WATER, THEY WILL GROW A LOT OF ALMONDS, THEY WILL GROW LETTUCE AND CARROTS AND ONIONS.

THOSE ALMONDS AND LETTUCE AND CARROTS AND ONIONS AND MELONS, A FRIEND OF MINE WHO FARMS IN THE DESERTS OF CALIFORNIA GROWS DELICIOUS MELONS, THOSE ARE HIGH DOLLAR HIGH VALUE CROPS AND IF THERE IS ENOUGH LAND AND WATER BEYOND WHAT THEY NEED FOR THOSE CORE MONEYMAKING CROPS, THE LAND WILL BE PLANTED IN ALFALFA, WHICH IS A LOWER VALUED CROP IN DOLLAR VALUE, THE MONEY THEY CAN MAKE BUT IT IS A TERRIFIC CROP, VERY DRAUGHT TOLERANT.

YOU KNOW WORKS WELL WITH VARIABLE WATER SUPPLY AND WHEN THE WATER SUPPLY SHRINKS, THEY KEEP THE HIGH DOLLAR CROPS, THE ALMONDS, WE SAW THIS IN CALIFORNIA DURING THE DRAUGHT OF THE EARLY TEENS WHICH IS WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, AND THEY SHRINK THE ALFALFA SO THE FARMERS ARE REALLY GREAT AT GROWING, USING MARKET SIGNALS TO GROW THE CROPS THAT WE MOST WANT AS FOOD CONSUMERS.

AND I PERSONALLY DON'T OBJECT TO THE EXPORT OF CROPS, WE ARE FEEDING PEOPLE IN MANY DIFFERENT PLACES, SOME OF THEM OUTSIDE OF THE STATE WHERE THE WATER IS USED, SOME OF THEM OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY WHERE THE WATER IS USED, WE ARE ALSO IMPORTING A WHOLE BUNCH OF CROPS AND WATER FROM OTHER PLACES.

ON A STATE LIKE NEW MEXICO IS IMPORTING A LOT MORE WHAT WE CALL "VIRTUAL WATER" IN THE CROPS AND PRODUCTS WE EAT AND WE ARE EXPORTING.

SO I TRY TO AVOID THE PROBLEM OF CRITICIZING THE EXPORT OF A FOOD CROP TO PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN A DIFFERENT PLACE, WE ARE FEEDING PEOPLE.

BUT THE FARMERS ARE REALLY GOOD AT ADAPTING WHEN THERE IS LESS WATER, THEY DON'T NEED TO BE TOLD WHICH CROPS TO GROW, THEY WILL GROW THE CROPS THAT PEOPLE MOST WANT TO EAT.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH JOHN FLECK, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

YOU HAVE TOUCHED ON SOME OF THE NEW MEXICO WATER ISSUES - THE USE OF IMPORTED WATERS, THE OVER DEVELOPMENT IN REQUIRING SO MUCH WATER, DIMINISHING WATER SUPPLY, RISING TEMPERATURES.

WHAT ARE OTHER CHALLENGES FOR NEW MEXICO'S WATER SITUATION?

>>JOHN: SO I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT CHALLENGE THAT WE FACE IN NEW MEXICO IS THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON OUR AVAILABLE WATER SUPPLY.

I WAS PART OF THE TEAM BASED AT THE CENTER OF THE LAW SCHOOL, WORKING ON A BIG STATE WATER TASKFORCE REPORT, A GROUP OF STAKEHOLDERS AND LEGISLATORS AND STATE OFFICIALS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE ADDRESS OUR WATER PROBLEMS.

AND THE CHALLENGE IS THAT WE ALL HAVE COME TO EXPECT AND DEPEND ON THE AMOUNT OF WATER WE HAVE NOW, RIGHT?

SO ALBUQUERQUE IS THE SIZE IT IS AND CONTINUES TO GROW, WE HAVE IRRIGATED AGRICULTURE UP AND DOWN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE VALLEY, WE HAVE CITIES IN PLACES LIKE WHERE YOU ARE IN SANTA FE AND LAS CRUCES AND THERE IS LESS WATER FOR EVERYONE, ALL TOGETHER, TOTAL.

AND WE HAVE BEEN OVERUSING WATER FOR A LONG TIME AND SO THE ISSUE AT CLIMATE CHANGE, WARMER TEMPERATURES, REDUCED THE AVAILABLE WATER FLOWING IN AND INCREASED THE DEMAND FOR THE PLANTS THAT WE DEPEND ON TO EAT AND TO MAKE OUR CITIES LIVABLE.

THEY USE MORE WATER BECAUSE OF THE WARMER TEMPERATURES.

WE EXPECT SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED WATER SUPPLIES, SO THE TRICK IS THAT WE ALL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT, THIS GOES BACK TO THE MESSAGE WATER IS FOR FIGHTING OVER.

HOW DO WE FIGURE OUT HOW TO COLLABORATE AND SHARE THESE SCARCE RESOURCES AND THIS ISN'T EASY.

YOU KNOW I MADE MY KINDERGARTEN PLAYGROUND JOKE A WHILE AGO BUT IT'S NOT A SIMPLE THING FOR EVERYONE TO USE LESS WATER, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE, ALBUQUERQUE WHERE I LIVE, THE PER PERSON USE OF WATER HAS BEEN CUT IN HALF IN THE LAST ALMOST 30 YEARS.

WATER CONSERVATION EFFORTS ARE ENORMOUSLY SUCCESSFUL.

WE SEE IRRIGATED AGRICULTURE SHRINKING ITS FOOTPRINT AND USING LESS WATER.

SO WE ARE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION BUT THE CHALLENGES, CLIMATE CHANGE, IS HITTING US PRETTY HARD, YOU KNOW, HARDER THAN AND SOME OF THE MORE EXTREMES SCENARIOS OF WHAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW.

SO WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK LEFT TO DO TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO HAVE OUR CITIES SURVIVE, HAVE OUR RURAL COMMUNITIES SURVIVE, MEET OUR OBLIGATION FOR OUR DOWNSTREAM NEIGHBORS IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO, IN TEXAS, MEXICO, YOU KNOW, OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR UPSTREAM NEIGHBORS IN COLORADO.

THERE ARE A LOT OF BIG CHALLENGES IN THE RESPONSE TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE REALITY THAT CLIMATE CHANGE MEAN LESS WATER, IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF THIS.

>>LORENE: NOW, JOHN, IN YOUR BOOK, YOU WRITE SO MUCH AND SO BEAUTIFULLY ABOUT THE COLORADO RIVER AND THE AGREEMENTS THAT SO MANY STATES ARE SHARING THAT WATER AND IT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHERE CONSUMPTION HAS EXCEEDED SUPPLY AND IN THE OLD DAYS THEY MADE UP FOR THE OVER USE BY DRAINING THE RESERVOIRS - LAKE MEAD AND LAKE POWELL - AND NOW LAKE MEAD IS DANGEROUSLY LOW.

SO HOW DRASTICALLY DO WE HAVE TO REDUCE OUR USE IN ORDER TO BALANCE THE USE AND THE SUPPLY?

>>JOHN: WELL, THERE IS SORT OF TWO WAYS TO APPROACH THIS QUESTION.

THERE IS A NUMBERS QUESTION AND A FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE OF MINE, COLLABORATOR, DEX SCHMIDT, AT UTAH STATE UNIVERSITY DID AN ANALYSIS WITH SOME OTHER PEOPLE THAT I WORKED WITH THAT CONCLUDED THAT THOSE OF US USING WATER FROM THE COLORADO RIVER, WE PROBABLY NEED TO CUT OUR USE PERHAPS 15 TO 20 PERCENT.

BUT PART OF THE CHALLENGE IS FIGURING OUT HOW TO SHARE THAT AND SOME PEOPLE LIKE, "I DON'T WANT TO CUT SO MUCH, I HAVE ALREADY CUT A LOT."

SO PART OF IT IS THIS COLLABORATIVE GOVERNANCE, HOW DO WE FIGURE OUT WHO CUTS HOW MUCH BUT PART OF THE CHALLENGE IS IF YOU LIVE BELOW A GIANT RESERVOIR AND I AM THINKING HERE OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA ESPECIALLY, IT IS EASIER TO JUST DRAIN THE RESERVOIR AND SAY, WELL MAYBE NEXT YEAR WE WILL HAVE A GOOD SNOW PACK AND THINGS WILL BE BETTER RATHER THAN RECOGNIZING THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL AND PERMANENT.

YOU KNOW WE HAVE STOPPED USING THE WORD DROUGHT, WE NOW USE THIS CRAZY WORD THAT I HATE AS A WRITER, BUT I USE ALL THE TIME ANYWAY, ARIDIFICATION.

IT IS BECOMING MORE ARID, IT IS BECOMING MORE DRY AND SORT OF RECOGNIZING THAT REALITY IS CRUCIAL FOR THINKING ABOUT HOW TO MOVE FORWARD.

I HAVE THIS THING THAT I HAVE DONE EVERY YEAR FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS SINCE I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON THE COLORADO RIVER, I GO OUT EVERY DECEMBER, THERE IS A MEETING IN LAS VEGAS THAT I ATTEND AND I GO OUT TO LAKE MEAD AND JUST TRY TO STAND NEXT TO THE RESERVOIR TO GET A PHYSICAL FEELING, A VISCERAL FEELING FOR HOW MUCH WATER THERE IS AND HOW MUCH WATER IS GONE.

AND I KEEP HAVING, YOU KNOW I WENT THERE A YEAR AGO AND HAD TO WALK FROM MY USUAL PARKING SPOT A HALF MILE TO GET TO THE EDGE OF THE LAKE AND THE VISCERAL FEELING OF THAT AND THERE WERE ALONG THE WAY IN THIS AREA OF THE LAKE, WRECKED SPEED BOATS, PEOPLE HAD SUNK THEM YEARS AGO AND THE WATER WAS RECEDING, THEY ARE JUST SORT OF LIKE GHOSTLY REMINDERS EMERGING FROM THE MUD OF THE PROBLEMS AND THE CHALLENGES THAT WE FACE.

AND SO THIS PROBLEM WE HAVE ON THE COLORADO RIVER WHERE PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY WERE ENTITLED TO WATER THAT WAS PROMISED TO THEM OR WRITTEN DOWN ON PIECES OF PAPER A HUNDRED YEARS AGO.

THE WATER IS REALLY NOT THERE AND WE CAN NO LONGER SAY, "YEAH, BUT THIS PIECE OF PAPER SAYS I AM ENTITLED."

AND SO LEARNING HOW TO COPE WITH THAT IS GOING TO BE REALLY IMPORTANT AND YOU KNOW I MIX THIS WITH MY OPTIMISM, WHEN PEOPLE HAVE LESS WATER THEY CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO USE LESS WATER, BUT THEY WOULD PREFER NOT TO, IT IS EASIER NOT TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO IRRIGATE LESS ALFALFA OR TEAR OUT YOUR LAWNS AND SO THAT'S THE CHALLENGE IS REALLY RECOGNIZING THAT.

AND THERE IS A REALLY IMPORTANT POLITICAL PIECE OF THIS CHALLENGE WHICH IS INCREASINGLY THE THING THAT I AM FOCUSING ON IN WORK, RECENTLY, IS FOR PEOPLE, YOUR AUDIENCE, OUR AUDIENCE NOT GIVING THEIR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP THE DIRECTION TO ACCEPT THAT WE NEED TO CUT BACK RATHER THAN DEMANDING THAT THEY FIGHT TO PROTECT OUR ENTITLEMENT.

LIKE GIVE YOUR ELECTED LEADERS PERMISSION TO ACCEPT THE REALITIES IF THERE'S LESS WATER RATHER THAN FORCING THEM TO FIGHT, RIGHT?

AND THAT'S A POLITICAL CHALLENGE AND THAT'S GOING BETTER IN SOME PLACES THAN IN OTHERS.

>>LORENE: IT IS THE DARWINIAN IMPERATIVE, CHANGE OR DIE.

>>JOHN: YEAH.

>>LORENE: YOU KNOW, WE ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO DO THAT.

>>JOHN: YEAH.

>>LORENE: QUICKLY, I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO TALK ABOUT THE RIO GRANDE BECAUSE YOU HAVE WRITTEN IN THIS WONDERFUL BLOG THAT YOU DO FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 40 YEARS THE RIO GRANDE THROUGH ALBUQUERQUE IS DRY.

SO WE DON'T HAVE MUCH TIME BUT TELL US ABOUT THE DITCHES DRYING AND NO IRRIGATION AND WHAT DO YOU SEE WHEN GO TO THE RIVER?

>>JOHN: YEAH.

THIS IS THE NEXT BOOK THAT I AM WORKING ON WHICH IS ANOTHER SHOW, I'LL COMEBACK, HOW WATER MOVES THROUGH THE RIO GRANDE VALLEY AND WHEN THE RIVER WENT DRY LAST SUMMER IN JULY OF LAST SUMMER, I GOT UP AT THE CRACK OF DAWN AND THREW A BIKE IN THE CAR AND WENT DOWN TO THE VALLEY BECAUSE THERE IS A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN KIND OF RIDE YOUR BIKE TO GET INTO THE SPOT WHERE IT WAS DRYING AND IT WAS QUIET AND THERE WERE BIRDS, IT WAS STILL MUDDY OUT IN THE RIVERBED BUT THERE WAS NO LONGER ANY WATER FLOWING.

AND FOR ME AS A PERSON WHO HAS SPENT THE LAST 30 PLUS YEARS OF MY LIFE AROUND THIS RIVER, THE RIO GRANDE HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, IT WAS HEARTBREAKING, BUT IT IS WORTH REMEMBERING THAT THERE ARE PARTS OF THIS RIVER THAT GO DRY EVERY YEAR.

SO IT IS NEW FOR US HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, BUT WITH LESS WATER AS A RESULT OF CLIMATE CHANGE, THERE IS LESS WATER FOR ME AT MY HOUSE, THERE IS LESS WATER FOR THE IRRIGATION DITCHES THAT ARE A RICH PART OF OUR COMMUNITY HERE IN CENTRAL NEW MEXICO, THERE IS LESS WATER FOR THE CHANNEL ITSELF, THE RIVER CHANNEL ITSELF AND WE HAVE REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT TRADEOFFS THAT WE FACE AS WE DECIDE WHERE WE WANT THE WATER TO GO?

WHAT ARE THE VALUES THAT WE INTEND TO PRESERVE, HOW MUCH OF THE CULTURE OF THE IRRIGATED AGRICULTURE THAT WE TREASURE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RIO GRANDE VALLEY, HOW MUCH OF THE CITY, THAT'S A GREAT CITY THAT I LOVE, HOW MUCH OF THE RIVER ITSELF THAT I LOVE LIKE - WE HAVE TO CHOOSE, AND THOSE TRADEOFFS ARE HARD.

BUT THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS FIGURE OUT HOW TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WE VALUE AND SAVE WHAT WE CAN.

>>LORENE: SO THOSE TRADEOFFS ARE MADE AT A STATEWIDE AND SOCIETAL LEVEL BUT ALSO PERSONALLY.

SO I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT WE ALL CAN DO.

FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO FACE EVEN THOUGH WE GRIEVE, TO FACE THAT.

WE HAVE TO FACE THAT THERE IS LESS WATER, THE WORLD HAS CHANGED.

>>JOHN: YEAH.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE INTERVIEWS THAT I DID FOR THE BOOK, WATERS FOR FIGHTING OVER , WAS A GUY NAMED CURTIS HYDE, WHO IS A LANDSCAPER IN LAS VEGAS, NEVADA, AND HE IS A PROFESSIONAL IN HELPING PEOPLE FIGURE OUT HOW TO PRESERVE THEIR LANDSCAPING WITH LESS WATER.

AND FIRST HE IS A RELIGIOUS GUY, HE IS A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, HE IS A MORMON AND A CENTRAL TENANT OF THE MORMON FAITH IS THE EDICT FROM THE BOOK OF ISAIAH IN THE BIBLE THAT "WE SHALL MAKE THE DESERT BLOSSOM AS A ROSE" AND CURTIS WAS JUST LIKE REALLY CHARMING IN THE WAY HE TALKED ABOUT THIS.

BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT HIS SPIRITUAL AND RELIGIOUS BELIEF ABOUT THE WORK OF A GARDENER, RIGHT?

BUT HE WAS REALLY FRANK ABOUT IT, HE SAID, "I STILL BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO MAKE THE DESERT BLOSSOM AS A ROSE.

WE JUST HAVE TO DO IT WITH LESS WATER."

AND THAT WAS JUST SUCH A TOUCHING OBSERVATION ON OUR CULTURAL ROOTS.

YOU KNOW WE WANT THESE GREEN SPACES, WE LOVE THE IRRIGATED LAND AROUND OUR HOMES IF YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO FARM, WE LOVE THE WATER FLOWING THROUGH OUR VALLEY DITCHES THAT WE CAN WALK AND RIDE OUR BIKES ALONG, WE LOVE THE WATER IN THE RIVER CHANNEL, THERE IS JUST LESS OF IT.

WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SORT OF CONTINUE THIS DESERT BLOSSOMING AS A ROSE, THINK ABOUT WHAT ARE THOSE THINGS THAT WE VALUE THE MOST BUT DO IT WITH LESS WATER.

SO THERE IS NO LAWN IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE ANYMORE AND THERE IS SOME LOW WATER PINION TREES.

SO I STILL HAVE A BEAUTIFUL GREEN YARD BUT WITH LESS WATER AND THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IS LIKE HOW DO WE PRESERVE THESE VALUES THAT WE ALL LOVE - THIS SHARED SENSE OF COMMUNITY AND DO IT WITH LESS WATER.

>>LORENE: SO FOR GUIDANCE IN THOSE PRESERVATIONS OF OUR GARDEN AND DOING IT WITH LESS WATER, CAN YOU GIVE US YOUR WEBSITE ADDRESS OF YOUR BLOG.

BECAUSE I REALLY HAVE GOTTEN SO MUCH FROM READING YOUR BLOG.

>>JOHN: YEAH, WWW.INKSTAIN.NET I STARTED YEARS AGO A WEBSITE BY A BUNCH OF OLD JOURNALISTS, WE CALLED OURSELVES INKSTAIN WRETCHES, SO.

INKSTAIN.NET >>LORENE: THAT'S PERFECT.

WELL, I THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME AWAY FROM YOUR INK STAINED WRITING TO SHARE THIS BOOK WHICH I REALLY WANT TO RECOMMEND, WATER IS FOR FIGHTING OVER , AND I LOOK FORWARD TO READING YOUR NEW BOOK AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT THEN.

>>JOHN: YEAH.

>>LORENE: BUT I AM SO GRATEFUL TO OUR GUEST TODAY IS JOHN FLECK.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>JOHN: THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>LORENE: IT'S BEEN A REAL PLEASURE.

AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM