GEOFF BENNETT: At the beginning of the Cold# War in 1949, baseball great Jackie Robinson## appeared before the House Un-American# Activities Committee to publicly disavow## the comments of another prominent Black# American actor, singer and activist Paul## Robeson.

That fateful testimony is the# subject of a new book, "Kings and Pawns:## Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America,"# by journalist and author Howard Bryant.

I sat down with Bryant recently to# unpack the parallel lives of these## two trailblazing men and the forces that# ultimately pitted them against each other.

Howard Bryant, welcome back to the "News Hour."

HOWARD BRYANT, Author, "Kings and Pawns: Jackie# Robinson and Paul Robeson in America": Yes, thanks## for having me back.

GEOFF BENNETT: And let's start our conversation# with the key moment .. in front of the House un-American Activities# Committee in 1949.

Paul Robeson was this## outspoken activist with Soviet sympathies and# he had been quoted as saying -- it turned out## the quote was somewhat exaggerated, but he was# saying that Black Americans would never fight## for a country like the U.S.

against a country like# the Soviet Union that believed in their equality.

And this was Robeson's response# in front of the committee: JACKIE ROBINSON, Major League Baseball Player:# I have been asked to express my views on Paul## Robeson's statement in Paris, to the effect that# American Negroes would refuse to fight in any war## against Russia because we love Russia so much.# I haven't any comment to make, except that -- on## that statement, except that, if Mr.

Robeson# actually made it, it sounds very silly to me.

But he has a right to his personal# views.

And if he wants to sound silly## when he expresses them in public,# that's his business and not mine.

GEOFF BENNETT: So how did Jackie Robinson find# himself there pitted against Paul Robeson?

HOWARD BRYANT: Well, the biggest reason# he found himself pitted against Robeson## is from his employer, Branch Rickey,# the president of the Brooklyn Dodgers,## the man responsible for integrating# the big leagues with Robinson in 1947.

Jackie really felt a responsibility.

He felt# a loyalty to Rickey.

Rickey really implored## him to appear.

Jackie didn't want to do# it.

He felt like it was not his area.

He## was not that well-versed in the politics and# certainly not the politics of the Cold War.

But he also felt another responsibility,## which was in his memoir he would say that# he did not want the white allies who were## sympathetic to civil rights to abandon that# fight if they felt that Black citizens were## disloyal to the United States, and he felt# a sense of responsibility to ensure that.

GEOFF BENNETT: Paul Robeson,# we should remind folks,## was a giant of his time.

Is his# disappearance from popular memory,## is that a historical accident or# a deliberate act of forgetting?

HOWARD BRYANT: It's a 100 percent deliberate act.

And it shows the power of the Cold War and# the power of McCarthyism and so much of the## language that we're hearing today about# enemy of the people and the enemy within.## This is what it was back then.

And I think# there was no greater disqualifying word,## no greater weapon against an American citizen# than to call them a communist at that time.

And I think one of the things that I was really# trying to get at is the tension in the African## American community in this book, because so much# of the Black establishment felt that Robeson was## toxic, and they abandoned him as well and, in# doing that, really isolated him and set the stage## for the federal government and the rest of the# country to really turn its back on him as well.

It was certainly not an accident.# Time did some of it but really## it was deliberate because of# the tensions of that period.

GEOFF BENNETT: And how did Jackie Robinson come to## think of that testimony later in# his own life?

Did he regret it?

HOWARD BRYANT: Well, exactly, Geoff.

And I think that the -- regret is a hard# word for Jackie, because he's .. just like Robeson was an athlete.

And it's# really hard to admit that he was wrong.## However, he and Paul Robeson both ended# up at the end of their lives quite## disillusioned at the lack of progress# in the country, and Jackie especially.

That's why the title is what it is.

The questions# of whether or not I did the right thing and## whether or not I was being used or manipulated# or whether Robeson was or whether we all were,## Rachel Robinson gave a great interview# in 1976 where she said that Jackie was## a patriot.

He was a citizen.

And it was# -- he was, my country, right or wrong.

But he did receive -- she said, we# got two bad pieces of advice that## we never really lived down.

One was Jackie# Robinson's support of Richard Nixon in the## 1960 presidential election.

And the other was# this testimony and -- against Robeson in 1949.

And so he didn't exactly say I# regret doing it, but he did say,## if asked to do it again, I would say no.# So I think that's as close as we got to it.

GEOFF BENNETT: You call this story an# exposed route on the beaten path of the## story of baseball integration.

What made you# want to write about this era and these men?

HOWARD BRYANT: Really,# embarrassment was the first.

I have been such a baseball fan for so# long and I have been reading about .. Robeson and Jackie Robinson.

And how many# times if you read baseball history that## Jackie Robinson testified against Paul# Robeson?

And then I just kept reading,## and I felt like the story was so# relevant to today.

And it's so important.

These two giants, how could it# be that you had -- at one point,## Paul Robeson was the most famous Black# man in the world and Jackie Robinson,## the most important Black athlete in the second# half of the 20th century.

How did this happen?## How did they find themselves in opposition?

What# were the forces that put them in this predicament?

And, to me, it was just so representative of this# question that African Americans are constantly## having and we have to this day about belonging# and about patriotism and about that twoness,## that ability to, one, be patriotic and feel like# you are part of this country while at the same## time living in at that time a segregated society# and all of the forces that sort of came to it.

It's a really important moment that I# just felt was completely underreported.

GEOFF BENNETT: Building on your point# about the parallels between that time## and our -- this current moment, what lessons# do you think this story has for us right now?

HOWARD BRYANT: I think the biggest lesson# to me when I think about -- especially when## I think about Paul Robeson, is the# power of the times that you live in.

The complacency that we have today is very,# very similar to the complacency that people## felt back then, that the country wouldn't go as# far, that we still believed in our institutions,## and the institutions would save us# and that common sense would prevail.

And you think about that, it sounds# very similar to how we are today,## that this is just the time and we will get# through it.

But the effect of the Cold War,## the effect of McCarthyism on Paul Robeson's life,# the United States did not allow him to leave the## country.

They refused to issue him a passport,# which was unconstitutional, and yet it happened.

There were all kinds of legal and extralegal# things that took place there that really## destroyed this man.

And, on the other# hand, when it came to Jackie Robinson,## we talk about April 15, 1947 as the# transformative moment that it was,## but we also don't talk about what it# did to Jackie Robinson as a person.

And so what I wanted to do was# sort of break from a little bit## of the mythology and dig into the# effects of what these pioneering## men have -- what they went through in real time# and the -- and, really, when I think about it,## how -- what is past is prologue.

So much# of what is happening then is happening now.

GEOFF BENNETT: The book is "Kings and Pawns:## Jackie Robinson and Paul Robeson in America"# by journalist and author Howard Bryant.

Howard, always great to speak with you.

Thank you.

HOWARD BRYANT: Thank you again, Geoff.