>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, FROM WALKOUTS TO COOKOUTS.

HOW EVENTS AROUND LABOR DAY HAVE CHANGED IN RECENT DECADES AND HOW IT IS IMPACTING OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WORKING CLASS ISSUES IN 2024.

>> WE HAVE TO BE MORE SKEPTICAL THAN EVER BEFORE AND TALK.

TALK TO THE PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNITY, TALK TO YOUR FELLOW WORKERS, TALK TO YOUR NEIGHBORS.

BE ENGAGED.

>> Lou: AND A RECENT STUDY EXAMINES CONDITIONS FOR OIL AND GAS WORKERS IN THE PERMIAN BASIN.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.

IN A MATTER OF DAYS AFTER CELEBRATING OUR NATIONAL HOLIDAY FOR AMERICA'S WORKING CLASS, WE ARE GOING TO DEVOTE THIS WEEKS EPISODE TO THE STATE OF LABOR IN OUR COUNTRY AND HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

LATER WE'LL SPEND SOME TIME TALKING TO A LABOR ATTORNEY ABOUT NAVIGATING SOME OF THE BOOBY TRAPS MODERN BUSINESSES HAVE CREATED TO SQUEEZE EXTRA DOLLARS OUT OF THEIR WORKERS.

BUT, BEFORE WE GET INTO THE PROBLEMS OF THE PRESENT IN NEW MEXICO, WE WANT TO EXAMINE HOW WE GOT HERE.

DECADE AFTER DECADE SINCE ITS INCEPTION IN THE LATE 1800'S, LABOR DAY WAS SEEN AS ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF WORKING PEOPLE IN AMERICA.

A DAY OFF, YES, BUT MORE SO A MOMENT FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY TO APPRECIATE AND RESPECT THE HARD DAYS MANY FOLKS TURN IN WEEK AFTER WEEK.

BUT MENTION LABOR DAY IN 2024 AND ASK SOMEBODY WHAT COMES TO MIND, YOU ARE MORE LIKELY TO HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT LIGHTING UP THE GRILL OR TAKING A LOAD OFF WITH A COLD ONE.

NOW, THIS WEEK I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIT DOWN WITH DR. JASON SMITH, A PROFESSOR IN THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO'S HISTORY DEPARTMENT.

HE SPECIALIZES IN LABOR IN MODERN AMERICAN HISTORY AMONG OTHER THINGS.

I ASKED HIM WHY LABOR DAY WAS INITIALLY CREATED, HOW AMERICA'S WORKING CLASS HAS CHANGED SINCE, AND HOW WE SHOULD MEASURE ECONOMIC SUCCESS IN OUR COUNTRY BEYOND THE WALL STREET TICKER.

>> Lou: DR. JASON SMITH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Dr. Smith: IT IS A PLEASURE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> LOU: THESE DAYS MOST PEOPLE WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT LABOR DAY, THEY THINK ABOUT COOKOUTS, BARBECUES, BUT I WANTED TO START THIS CONVERSATION WITH HOW THE HOLIDAY BEGAN.

CAN YOU TAKE US BACK TO THAT FIRST LABOR DAY IN THE LATE 1800S.

WHAT WAS THE LARGER LABOR MOVEMENT ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH AT THAT TIME CULMINATING WITH THE CREATION OF LABOR DAY?

>> Dr. Smith: SO, IF WE LOOK BACK AT THE LATE 1800S FIRST LABOR DAY AS A FEDERAL HOLIDAY IS IN 1894, WE SHOULD THINK OF THIS WORLD AS A WORLD OF TRANSITION, OF TURMOIL, OF THE RISE OF INDUSTRIAL CAPITALISM.

THERE IS GREAT WAVES OF URBANIZATION, IMMIGRATION, A GREAT KIND OF CHURNING.

THE ECONOMIST JOSEPH SCHUMPETER DEFINED CAPITALISM AS A PERENNIAL GALE OF CREATIVE DESTRUCTION, CEASELESSLY CHURNING FROM WITHIN AND A BIOLOGICAL UNDERSTANDING OF THIS INCESSANT CREATIVE DESTRUCTION.

WHAT WE SEE WITH ORGANIZED LABOR AND WITH WORKING PEOPLE IS THEY ARE TRYING TO FIND A FOOTHOLD IN A RAPIDLY TRANSFORMING SOCIETY.

AT THIS POINT THERE AREN'T FEDERAL LAWS ABOUT WORKERS SAFETY.

UNIONS ARE TRYING TO BARGAIN COLLECTIVELY WITH EMPLOYERS.

EMPLOYERS, THINK OF STANDARD OIL, THINK OF U.S. STEEL, COMMAND MONOPOLY POWER IN THE MARKETPLACE.

SO THIS IS A REALLY TURBULENT TIME AND IT IS A TIME FOR GREAT VIOLENCE IN THE STREETS.

STRIKES ARE CRUSHED BY COMPANIES WITH PRIVATE DETECTIVE FORCES, PINKERTONS, THE STATE NATIONAL GUARD IS CALLED OUT TO CRUSH STRIKES.

YOU KNOW.

THIS KIND OF LABOR QUESTION, AS REFORMERS CALLED IT, WAS TOP OF MIND FOR SO MANY PEOPLE, REFORMERS, POLITICIANS, LABOR LEADERS, BUSINESS LEADERS.

HOW CAN WE CALM THIS VIOLENCE?

AND THE NOTION OF HAVING A WORKERS HOLIDAY, A HOLIDAY TO COMMEMORATE AND RECOGNIZE ORGANIZED LABOR, THIS BECOMES A TALKING POINT FOR ORGANIZED LABOR IN THE 1880'S, IT BECOMES A FEDERAL HOLIDAY IN 1894 AND IT IS AN INTERESTING ACCIDENT OF THE CALENDAR.

AND BY ACCIDENT, I MEAN NOT AN ACCIDENT OF THE CALENDAR THAT LABOR DAY IS NOT MAY 1, THE INTERNATIONAL DAY FOR RECOGNIZING WORKER MOVEMENT ACROSS THE WORLD.

OFTEN CHARACTERIZED BY VIOLENCE AND TURMOIL AND STRIFE.

IT IS KIND OF WAY, AN ATTEMPT TO DE-RADICALIZE A HOLIDAY ASSOCIATED OFTEN WITH RADICAL ANARCHIST TENDENCIES.

>> Lou: AT THAT TIME, WHAT TYPE OF WORK DID THE LABOR MOVEMENT REPRESENT AND WHO EXACTLY WERE THOSE WORKERS?

>> Dr. Smith: THERE IS A RANGE OF ANSWERS TO THAT.

SOME LABOR UNIONS, THE KNIGHTS OF LABOR, MOST FAMOUSLY, THAT WERE VERY INCLUSIVE AND TRIED TO ORGANIZE EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF SKILL, REGARDLESS OF RACE OR ETHNIC DIFFERENCE.

REACHING ACROSS GENDER LINES.

YOU HAD ALSO THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR LOOKING TO FOCUS ON ORGANIZING WHITE MEN IN SKILLED CRAFT OCCUPATIONS, CARPENTRY, BRICK LAYING, BUILDING TRADES.

SO YOU HAD A RANGE OF WORKERS AND LABOR ORGANIZATIONS THAT WERE AT WORK TRYING TO ORGANIZE PEOPLE ACROSS DIFFERENT OCCUPATIONS.

>> Lou: LET'S JUMP AHEAD 50 YEARS, THE NEW DEAL, THAT HELPED PULL THE COUNTRY OUT OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION, OF COURSE, IN THE MID 1930'S.

WHAT WAS INCLUDED IN THAT SERIES OF PROGRAMS AND FINANCIAL REFORMS, AND WHAT CONDITIONS WERE IN PLACE THAT MADE THOSE CHANGES NECESSARY.

>> Dr. Smith: WHEN WE GET TO THE 1930'S, TO THE GREAT DEPRESSION, I THINK THE THINGS TO EMPHASIZE ARE THE WORDS GREAT AND DEPRESSION.

UNEMPLOYMENT IS AT ALL TIME HIGHS, YOU KNOW, ROUGHLY 25% OF THE LABOR FORCE WHEN FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT TAKES OFFICE IN 1933, ABOUT 25% OF THE LABOR FORCE IS OUT OF WORK.

OF THOSE WHO COULD FIND WORK, A THIRD COULD ONLY FIND PART-TIME EMPLOYMENT.

SO, MASSIVE UNEMPLOYMENT, AND GREAT WORRY ABOUT HOW CAN WE STABILIZE THE ECONOMY?

HOW CAN WE PUT PEOPLE BACK TO WORK.

SO THE PUBLIC POLICIES PART OF THE NEW DEAL ADDRESS THESE PROBLEMS, THE CREATION OF THE PUBLIC WORKS ADMINISTRATION AND THE WORKS PROGRESS ADMINISTRATION TO PROVIDE EMPLOYMENT, CREATE JOBS, BUILDING SOCIALLY USEFUL INFRASTRUCTURE, THE CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORE, HOW TO PUT UNEMPLOYED MEN TO WORK IN RURAL AREAS IMPROVING THE LANDSCAPE, PLANTING TREES, ADDRESSING EROSION.

EFFORTS TO ADDRESS THE COLLAPSE IN THE FARM ECONOMY, EFFORTS TO ADDRESS THE COLLAPSE IN THE URBAN INDUSTRIAL ECONOMY AND PART OF THIS EFFORT WAS THIS PASSAGE OF THE NATIONAL INDUSTRIAL RECOVERY ACT AND IT CREATES A NATIONAL RECOVERY ADMINISTRATION DESIGNED TO IMPLEMENT CODES OF COMPETITION WHERE BUSINESS, LABOR AND GOVERNMENT CAN WORK TOGETHER TO SET HOURS AND WAGES AND PRICES.

AND PART OF THIS LEGISLATION IS A SECTION 7A THAT GIVES WORKERS AND UNIONS THE RIGHT TO BARGAIN COLLECTIVELY WITH EMPLOYERS.

IT IS A LEGALLY RECOGNIZED, FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED RIGHT.

AND, THE SUPREME COURT STRIKES DOWN THIS LEGISLATION, THIS TITLE I OF THIS LEGISLATION, AND THE CONGRESS LOOKS AT THIS RIGHT TO BARGAIN COLLECTIVELY AND PASSES IT AGAIN IN THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS ACT IN 1935, CALLED WAGNER ACT AFTER THE SENATOR FROM NEW YORK.

AND THIS GIVES WORKING PEOPLE AND UNIONS A KIND OF FEDERAL CHARTER THAT THEY RAN WITH.

FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT WAS NOT NECESSARILY A HUGE FAN OF THIS MEASURE BUT IT TURNED OUT TO BE INCREDIBLY POPULAR WITH UNIONS, UNIONS RAN POSTERS.

THE PRESIDENT, YOUR PRESIDENT WANTS YOU TO JOIN A UNION.

FDR DIDN'T NECESSARILY WANT PEOPLE TO JOIN THE UNION BUT THE LABOR UNION LEANED ON THIS AND WE CAN SEE GREAT MOMENTS OF LABOR VICTORY IN THE 1930'S.

I MEAN, MOST NOTABLY IN FLINT, MICHIGAN, THE WINTER OF 1936, '37, WHAT HAPPENS, THE SMALL UNITED AUTO WORKERS BRINGS THE LARGEST CORPORATION ON THE PLANET, GENERAL MOTORS, TO THE BARGAINING TABLE BY SITTING IN AND OCCUPYING THE PRODUCTION PLANTS OF GENERAL MOTORS IN FLINT.

AND IN THIS SIT-DOWN STRIKE, AGAIN, THE NATIONAL GUARD IS CALLED OUT BY THE GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN, FRANK MURPHY, A DEMOCRAT.

BUT THIS TIME IT KEEPS THE PEACE AND IT KEEPS CALM AND STABILITY AND THE STRIKE IS ULTIMATELY SETTLED SUCCESSFULLY.

GENERAL MOTORS COMES TO THE BARGAINING TABLE, SIGNS A CONTRACT WITH THE UAW AND THIS VICTORY AT FLINT SETS THE STAGES FOR SUBSEQUENT VICTORIES FOR THE LABOR MOVEMENT IN THE LATER 1930'S AND THEN THE GROWTH OF ORGANIZED LABOR DURING WORLD WAR II.

THE VIOLENCE I MENTIONED EARLIER IN THE LATE 19TH CENTURY, WE SEE THE THREAT OF THIS IN THE 1930'S.

ONE OF THE KEY REASONS THAT THE UAW STRIKES GENERAL MOTORS AND NOT FORD IS THAT FORD WAS LARGEST PRIVATE COMPANY OWNER OF MUNITIONS AND DYNAMITE AT THIS POINT.

SO IT IS ALWAYS A PRO MOVE TO STRIKE THE COMPANY WITH FEWER GUNS.

SO THEY WENT AFTER GENERAL MOTORS.

WHAT DO WE SEE ON MEMORIAL DAY IN 1937 IN CHICAGO, STEEL WORKERS GO ON STRIKE AND 50 OF THEM ARE SHOT BY THE CHICAGO POLICE.

10 DIE, THE MEMORIAL DAY MASSACRE, JUST LATER THAT YEAR, AFTER THE FLINT SIT-DOWN STRIKE IS SETTLED, REMINDS US THAT THIS THREAT OF VIOLENCE BETWEEN LABOR AND INDUSTRY IS STILL PREVALENT AND STILL A BIG DEAL.

>> Lou: YOU TALK ABOUT THESE UNION BUSTING EFFORTS.

HOW HAVE ANTILABOR PRACTICES EVOLVED OVER -- SINCE THAT TIME, TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY?

>> Dr. Smith: IT IS A LOT TO KIND OF PAINT IN BROAD STROKES.

WE DO SEE A DECLINE IN THIS KIND OF OPEN VIOLENCE THAT WE ASSOCIATE WITH THE LATE 19TH CENTURY AND STILL SEE THE RESIDUE OF IN THE 1930'S.

WE SEE A DECLINE IN THIS OPEN POLICE POWER OF THE STATE USED AGAINST LABOR BUT WE DO SEE A KIND OF TRANSITION, YOU KNOW, ORGANIZED LABOR GOES FROM IN THE 1930'S BEING ALMOST A SOCIAL MOVEMENT IN ITS ENTHUSIASM TO BEING A KIND OF BUREAUCRATIZED PART OF THE ECONOMY AND BUSINESS LANDSCAPE AFTER WORLD WAR II.

SO KIND OF A DROP OFF IN GRASS ROOTS ENTHUSIASM AND THERE IS AN UPTICK IN CORPORATE STRATEGIES TO TAMP DOWN UNION ACTIVITY.

WHETHER IT IS JUST SIMPLY FIRING PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO ORGANIZE, THREATENING WORKERS IF THEY JOIN A UNION, BAD THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM.

WE SEE THIS KIND OF ABILITY OF CORPORATIONS TO RECLAIM THAT RIGHT TO MANAGE, AS THEY WOULD CALL IT, BOTH IN A LEGALISTIC SENSE AND IN A KIND OF INDUSTRIAL SHOP FORCE SENSE AT THE WORKPLACE.

>> Lou: WHAT ABOUT INSTITUTIONALLY AND GOVERNMENTALLY?

THE BARGAINING POWER OF BUSINESS VERSES THE BARGAINING POWER OF UNIONS AND PUSHING LEGISLATION IN DIFFERENT POLICIES THAT BENEFIT ONE OR THE OTHER.

HOW HAS THAT CHANGED IN THE LAST FEW DECADES?

>> Dr. Smith: IF WE ARE THINKING ABOUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AS A KIND OF PLAYER IN THIS PROCESS, IT IS COMPLICATED.

WE HAVE SEEN OVER TIME THE GOVERNMENT KIND OF CEDE CONTROL OF THIS AREA AND BUSINESS KIND OF COME IN AND FILL THIS SPACE, BUT MORE RECENTLY WE HAVE SEEN A STRENGTHENING OF CERTAINLY THE NATIONAL LABOR BOARD, LABOR RELATIONS, THIS KIND OF BUREAUCRACY THAT WORKS WITH MEDIATING THESE DISPUTES.

BUT EVEN STILL IT IS KIND OF A MIXED BAG.

WE CAN SEE PRESIDENT BIDEN GO AND SUPPORT AUTO WORKERS ON THE PICKET LINE, BUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ALSO USED LEGISLATION GOVERNING THE RAILROADS TO CALL RAILROAD WORKERS OFF OF THEIR STRIKE AND BACK TO THE WORKPLACE.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE POWER OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN CUT BOTH WAYS.

>> Lou: NOW, UNION MEMBERSHIP IN THE U.S. PEEKED IN 1950'S, AROUND A THIRD OF THE WORKFORCE WAS UNIONIZED AT THAT TIME.

THAT NUMBER SPIKED UP 20% IN THE 1980'S.

FOUR YEARS LATER WE ARE NOW LIKE TO 10%.

WHO ARE THE WORKERS THAT ARE STILL IN UNIONS TODAY AND WHY HAS THAT NUMBER DROPPED OFF SO DRAMATICALLY?

>> Dr. Smith: WE STILL SEE A STRONG PRESENCE IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR EMPLOYEES, SO, TEACHERS UNIONS, FIREFIGHTERS POLICEMEN, PUBLIC SAFETY.

WE SEE STRONG UNION MEMBERSHIP AND UNION MOVEMENTS IN THIS RESPECT.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN MORE RECENTLY IN THE NEWS UNIONIZATION IS A KEY FACTOR FOR CERTAINLY UPS AS A KIND OF PARCEL DELIVERY SERVICE.

OBVIOUSLY THE HOLLYWOOD INDUSTRIES HAVE STRONG UNIONS IN TERMS OF ACTORS, SCREEN WRITERS, THE DIRECTORS GUILD, THAT KIND OF PRODUCTION SIDE FOR HOLLYWOOD BUSINESS.

BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN KIND OF LARGER TRENDS IN THE ECONOMY COINCIDE WITH BROADER TRENDS IN SOCIETY AND EMPLOYMENT.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SEEN COMPANIES ACTIVELY WORK TO DRIVE DOWN THE UNION PRESENCE IN THE SECTORS THEY ARE OPERATING IN.

AND WE HAVE SEEN THE DIFFICULTY THAT ORGANIZED LABOR HAS HAD IN RESPONDING.

AND PART OF THIS IS A KIND OF, AS A HISTORIAN, I LIKE TO POINT TO THE LONGER RUN TENDENCIES.

THE TRAJECTORY OF THE LABOR MOVEMENT GOING FROM ALMOST A SOCIAL MOVEMENT IN THE 1930'S AND OVER TIME BECOMING SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE, WORKERS, BECAME A BIT DISCONNECTED FROM IN TERMS OF WHO IS REPRESENTING ME AT THE WORKPLACE.

>> Mr. Curtice: ESSENTIALLY YOU WANT TO KNOW A FEW THINGS.

WHAT ARE THE WORKING CONDITIONS WITHIN THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS SEGMENT.

AND ALSO THINKING BIGGER PICTURE AS WE TRANSFER AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS, SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WE WANT TO FIND OUT ARE THESE WORKERS INTERESTED IN TRANSITIONING TO CLEAN ENERGY JOBS OR OTHER INDUSTRIES?

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE IN TERMS OF THEIR WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING NEEDS, A LOT OF REALLY IN-DEPTH INSIGHT TO TRY TO INFORM WORKFORCE SOLUTIONS ON SOME OF THE PLANS MOVING FORWARD.

>> Lou: WE'LL HEAR FROM DR. GABRIEL SANCHEZ IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES AND I'LL WRAP UP MY CONVERSATION WITH DR. SMITH AT THE END OF THE SHOW.

RIGHT NOW, WE ARE GOING TO GET SOME PERSPECTIVE ON THE STATE OF LABOR SPECIFICALLY IN NEW MEXICO.

STEPHEN CURTICE IS AN ATTORNEY WHO SPECIALIZES IN WORKERS RIGHTS CASES AT THE YOUTZ VALDEZ FIRM IN ALBUQUERQUE.

HE REPRESENTS LABOR UNIONS AND INDIVIDUAL WORKERS IN A WIDE VARIETY OF CASES RANGING FROM WAGE THEFT TO ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES AIMED AT ORGANIZED LABOR.

WE WANTED TO GET A PROGRESS REPORT FOR THOSE WHO LIVE PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK IN OUR STATE AS WELL AS WHAT IS GOING ON WITH UNIONS.

>> STEPHEN CURTICE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Mr. Curtice: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Lou: SO MUCH OF THE MEDIA COVERAGE AROUND LABOR DAY AND THE PUBLIC DISCOURSE IN GENERAL IS ABOUT BARBECUES, YOU HEAR ABOUT BEER, HAVING A DAY OFF FROM WORK, HANGING OUT WITH YOUR FRIENDS.

WHAT DO YOU WANT NEW MEXICANS TO THINK OF WHEN THEY CELEBRATE LABOR DAY.

>> Mr. Curtice: I CERTAINLY WANT THEM TO CELEBRATE LABOR DAY, BUT I WOULD ALSO LIKE FOR PEOPLE TO APPRECIATE JUST HOW FAR THE LABOR MOVEMENT HAS COME, YOU KNOW, THE AFLCIO LIKES TO DESCRIBE THEMSELVES AS THE FOLKS WHO BROUGHT YOU THE WEEKEND AND THAT IS CERTAINLY VERY MUCH TRUE.

IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR, THEIR POLITICAL PLATFORM WAS SEEKING A SIX-DAY WORK WEEK AND A 10-HOUR WORK DAY WHICH TELLS YOU JUST HOW DIFFICULT WORKING CONDITIONS WERE AT THE TIME.

AND ALSO APPRECIATE THAT THE EARLY DAYS OF THE LABOR MOVEMENT WERE DONE WITH FRANKLY HOSTILITY FROM THE COURTS.

IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE LABOR MOVEMENT IN THE U.S., UNIONS WERE CONSIDERED TO BE EITHER ILLEGAL, CIVIL OR CRIMINAL CONSPIRACIES.

THEY WERE SUBJECT TO INJUNCTIONS.

THEY BECAME SUBJECT TO POTENTIAL LIABILITY UNDER THE SHERMAN ANTITRUST ACT IF THEY ENGAGED IN CONCERTED STRIKES OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE.

IT WASN'T UNTIL LIKE 1935 BEFORE THERE WERE FEDERAL PROTECTIONS FOR PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYEES FOR ENGAGING IN UNION ACTIVITIES, FORMING, JOINING OR ASSISTING A LABOR ORGANIZATION OR ENGAGING IN OTHER CONCERTED ACTIVITIES FOR MUTUAL AID AND BENEFIT.

SO A LOT OF THE EARLY GAINS OF THE LABOR MOVEMENT IN THE U.S.

WERE DEALING WITH OPPOSITION FROM THE COURTS AND THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

AND NOW THAT WE HAVE SLIGHTLY STRONGER LEGAL SYSTEM, PEOPLE MIGHT TAKE THAT FOR GRANTED.

I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT PEOPLE REFLECT A LITTLE ON LABOR HISTORY ON LABOR DAY.

>> Lou: LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR WORK AS A LABOR ATTORNEY IN OUR STATE.

WHO ARE THE PEOPLE AND ORGANIZATIONS THAT YOU REPRESENT AND WHY, GENERALLY SPEAKING, DO THEY NEED YOUR HELP?

>> Mr. Curtice: SO THE FIRM I WORK AT REPRESENTS BOTH PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR LABOR UNIONS IN NEW MEXICO.

WE ALSO REPRESENT INDIVIDUAL WORKERS.

THE TYPES OF UNIONS WE REPRESENT, FOR EXAMPLE, WOULD BE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR SIDE, THE INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF ELECTRICAL WORKERS, INTERNATIONAL UNION OF OPERATING ENGINEERS, TEAMSTERS, UNITED FOOD AND COMMERCIAL WORKERS, A WHOLE HOST OF THEM.

ON THE PUBLIC SECTOR SIDE WE ALSO REPRESENT THE AFSME, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF STATE, COUNTY AND FEDERAL EMPLOYEES.

AS WELL AS SOME UNIONS THAT SORT OF STRADDLE THE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR DIVIDE, SUCH AS THE NATIONAL UNION OF HOSPITAL AND HEALTHCARE EMPLOYEES, DISTRICT 1199.

UNIONS NEED LEGAL HELP BECAUSE THEY ARE FACING REPRESENTED EMPLOYERS.

EMPLOYERS TYPICALLY HAVE LEGAL COUNSEL.

AND SO THEY NEED HELP, LEGAL HELP, IN ORGANIZING AND GETTING CERTIFIED, EITHER THROUGH A STATE OR FEDERAL ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCY AS THE EXCLUSIVE BARGAINING REPRESENTATIVE.

THEY NEED HELP SOMETIMES IN COLLECTIVE BARGAINING BECAUSE THE EMPLOYERS ARE USUALLY REPRESENTED BY THEIR ATTORNEYS AT THE BARGAINING TABLE.

SOMETIMES THEY NEED HELP IN GRIEVANCE AND ARBITRATION SETTLEMENTS.

WORKERS, INDIVIDUAL WORKERS, ALSO NEED HELP BECAUSE THE LEGAL SYSTEM IS KIND OF COMPLEX, THERE IS A VAST ADMINISTRATIVE ARRAY OF OPTIONS THAT ARE SOMETIMES AVAILABLE TO EMPLOYEES IF THEY ARE EITHER HAVING PROBLEMS GETTING PAID CORRECTLY UNDER THE FAIR LABOR STANDARDS ACT OR SUBJECT TO DISCRIMINATION UNDER EITHER TITLE VII OR ANY OF THE CRIMINAL AND FEDERAL OR STATE LAWS.

SO, THAT IS WHY WORKERS WOULD COME TO A LAWYER SUCH AS MYSELF.

>> Lou: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ONE OF THOSE CASES SPECIFICALLY.

IN 2020 YOUR FIRM REPRESENTED WORKERS WHO SUCCESSFULLY SUED KELLY'S BREW PUB AND RESTAURANT FOR WAGE THEFT.

MAYBE TOUCHING ON THAT ONE SPECIFICALLY, MAYBE OTHERS, WHAT ARE A FEW TYPICAL TACTICS THAT A BUSINESS MIGHT USE TO SQUEEZE A FEW EXTRA DOLLARS OUT OF THEIR WORKERS?

>> Mr. Curtice: THERE IS A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN.

SOMETIMES OFF THE CLOCK WORKERS WORK IS THE PROBLEM WHERE THEY REQUIRE EITHER PRE OR POST SHIFT WORK, TYPICALLY PERFORMED NOT ON THE CLOCK.

THAT KELLY'S CASE YOU MENTIONED INVOLVED A RESTAURANT THAT WAS POOLING TIPS, WHICH IS ALLOWED, BUT THEN USING SOME OF THE POOLED TIPS, THE LAWSUIT ALLEGED, WERE USING SOME OF THE POOLED TIPS FOR PURPOSES OTHER THAN DISTRIBUTING TO WORKERS, WHICH IS NOT ALLOWED.

SO, HANDLING TIP POOLS IS ANOTHER POTENTIAL AREA.

ON THE CLOCK -- OFF THE CLOCK WORK IS RELATIVELY COMMON.

ANOTHER PROBLEM THAT SOME EMPLOYERS HAVE IS MISCLASSIFYING, SO THEY CAN EITHER MISCLASSIFY THEIR EMPLOYEES AS EXEMPT UNDER THE FAIR LABOR STANDARDS ACT, MEANING THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO OVERTIME.

SO THEN THEY REQUIRE THEM TO WORK IN EXCESS OF 40 HOURS A WEEK AND PAY THEM OVERTIME, BECAUSE THEY HAVE MISCLASSIFIED THEM AS EXEMPT.

THEY CAN ALSO SOMETIMES, ALTHOUGH I THINK THIS IS LESS COMMON, MISCLASSIFY THEM AS INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS RATHER THAN EMPLOYEES.

AN INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR WOULDN'T BE ENTITLED THE SAME LEGAL PROTECTIONS THAT AN EMPLOYEE WOULD.

SO THOSE ARE SOME OF THE WAYS IN WHICH WAGE THEFT CAN OCCUR.

SOMETIMES IT IS SIMPLY JUST THE PAY, YOU KNOW.

IN SOME INDUSTRIES THE PAYROLL SYSTEM ARE A LITTLE INFORMAL AND THEY ARE JUST NOT PAID CORRECTLY FOR ALL THE HOURS THEY WORK.

>> Lou: SURE.

FROM WHERE YOU SIT AS A LABOR ATTORNEY, HOW HAS THE STATE OF PLAY FOR WORKERS, EITHER UNIONIZED OR JUST INDIVIDUALS, HOW HAS IT CHANGED OVER THE YEARS AND WHAT HAS DRIVEN THAT SHIFT IN YOUR MIND?

>> Mr. Curtice: SO LOCALLY HERE IN NEW MEXICO WHEN I FIRST STARTED, THE PRIVATE SECTOR LABOR, UNIONS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR ARE GOVERNED BY A FEDERAL LAW, THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS ACT AND THE FEDERAL ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCY, NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED PRACTICING THAT BOARD WAS APPOINTED BY BUSH, THE YOUNGER, AND WAS, I THINK, FAIR TO SAY, NOT FAVORABLY INCLINED TOWARDS UNIONS.

SO, WE FACED LEGAL BARRIERS.

CURRENTLY THE BOARD IS LARGELY APPOINTED BY BIDEN AND HAVE MADE DECISIONS THAT ARE MORE PRO LABOR THAN PREVIOUS BOARDS HAVE.

HOWEVER, WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH NOW IS THE FACT THAT THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD HAS BEEN WOEFULLY UNDERFUNDED FOR AT LEAST A DECADE NOW.

AND THERE IS ATTRITION AND AS A RESULT THERE IS SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH EMPLOYEES AT THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD TO ENFORCE THE LAWS THAT THEY HAVE -- THE LAW THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO ENFORCE.

SO WE ARE DEALING WITH DIFFICULTIES IN ENFORCEMENT.

WE HAVE MORE FAVORABLE DECISIONS THAT ARE HELPING US, BUT DIFFICULTIES IN ENFORCEMENT.

ON THE PUBLIC SECTOR SIDE, YOU KNOW, NEW MEXICO IS BLESSED, THE LABOR MOVEMENT CAME TOGETHER AND WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN PASSING THE HEALTHY WORKPLACES ACT.

WHICH FOR THE PRIVATE SECTOR, I AM SORRY, PRIVATE SECTOR EMPLOYEES IN NEW MEXICO REQUIRES EMPLOYERS TO PROVIDE CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PAID SICK LEAVE DURING THE YEAR, WHICH WASN'T A REQUIREMENT PRIOR TO THE PASSAGE OF THAT LAW.

THAT HAS BEEN HUGELY BENEFICIAL TO EMPLOYEES IN NEW MEXICO.

PUBLIC SECTOR EMPLOYEES IN THE UNION CONTEXT ARE GOVERNED BY A BARGAINING ACT AND IN 2020, AGAIN, THE LABOR MOVEMENT CAME TOGETHER AND GOT SOME PRETTY HELPFUL AMENDMENTS TO THAT LAW TO MAKE IT EASIER TO ORGANIZE WORKERS IN THE FACE OF POTENTIAL OPPOSITION AND HAVE STRONGER ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDIES AVAILABLE IF PUBLIC SECTOR EMPLOYERS ENGAGE IN PRIMITIVE PRACTICES.

>> Lou: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT UNION MEMBERSHIP A LITTLE BIT.

WE KNOW THAT IT PEAKED NATIONALLY IN THE 1950'S.

ROUGHLY A THIRD OF WORKERS IN THE U.S.

WERE UNION MEMBERS AT THAT TIME.

THESE DAYS WE ARE DOWN TO ABOUT 10%.

DO THOSE NUMBERS REFLECT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN NEW MEXICO TOO?

>> Mr. Curtice: I THINK THE GENERAL TREND IS THE SAME.

I RECENTLY LOOKED AT THE BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS AND FOR 2023 UNION MEMBERSHIP IN NEW MEXICO RANKED AS ROUGHLY AROUND 30 OUT OF 51, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY.

SO WE ARE KIND OF MIDDLE OF THE PACK AND WE ARE CERTAINLY NOT AS HOSTILE TO UNIONS IN NEW MEXICO AS IN SOME OF THE SOUTHERN STATES WHERE MEMBERSHIP IS AS LOW AS LIKE TWO-AND-A-HALF PERCENT.

BUT WE ARE CERTAINLY NOT LIKE SOME OF THE MORE INDUSTRIAL EAST COAST STATES THAT HAVE A MUCH HIGHER UNION MEMBERSHIP.

SO I THINK BROADLY SPEAKING, THE TREND IN NEW MEXICO REFLECTS THAT SAME TREND IN THE NATIONAL TREND, BUT IS POTENTIALLY A LITTLE BIT -- WE ARE SLIGHTLY ABOVE AVERAGE, I GUESS.

>> Lou: WHAT HAS DRIVEN THAT TREND?

>> Mr. Curtice: NATIONALLY?

>> Lou: AND HERE.

>> Mr. Curtice: WELL, AGAIN, SO, 1947 SAW AMENDMENTS TO THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS ACT.

THAT WAS FIRST ENACTED WITH THE WAGNER ACT IN 1935 AND IN 1947 THE TAFT HARTLEY AMENDMENTS TO THAT ACT MADE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR UNIONS TO EXERCISE SOME OF THEIR ECONOMIC WEAPONS, SUCH AS SECONDARY STRIKES OR THOSE TYPES OF THINGS.

SO, THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK CHANGED AND THAT HAS PRECIPITATED A DECLINE.

I THINK ALSO, THE NATURE OF WORK IN THE UNITED STATES IS CHANGING FROM POTENTIALLY EASIER TO ORGANIZE FACTORY OR INDUSTRIAL WORKERS TO MORE DIFFICULT TO ORGANIZE SERVICE-BASED EMPLOYEES.

THAT IS ANOTHER POTENTIAL CAUSAL FACTOR.

I THINK ALSO UNION -- WELL, TO USE THE EUPHEMISM, UNION AVOIDANCE TACTICS OR WHAT WE REFER TO AS UNION BUSTING HAS BECOME MORE SOPHISTICATED OVER THE YEARS, WHERE EMPLOYERS ARE INCREASINGLY GETTING ADVICE FROM CONSULTANTS ON HOW TO DEFEAT A UNION ORGANIZING CAMPAIGN.

>> Lou: OKAY.

NOW WITH THAT DECLINING MEMBERSHIP, HAVE UNIONS POLITICAL POWER ALSO WANED IN NEW MEXICO AND WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT?

>> Mr. Curtice: CERTAINLY I THINK THAT UNIONS IN NEW MEXICO, THEIR POLITICAL INFLUENCE IS GREATER THAN THEIR POTENTIAL MEMBERSHIP WOULD INDICATE.

IN PART BECAUSE, I MEAN, UNIONS -- LABOR IS NEVER GOING TO BE AS WELL FUNDED AS CAPITAL.

THAT IS SIMPLY NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE EVER.

BUT UNION HAS SOMETHING THAT CAPITAL DOESN'T WHICH IS MOBILIZING -- ABILITY TO MOBILIZE WORKERS.

SO, UNIONS HAVE THE ABILITY TO ENGAGE IN MEMBER TO MEMBER COMMUNICATIONS.

THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO ENGAGE IN GET OUT THE VOTE EFFORTS.

THEY ARE ACTIVE POLITICALLY.

THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO ORGANIZE FOLKS TO APPEAR IN FRONT OF AND TESTIFY ON BEHALF OF BILLS IN THE LEGISLATURE, IN THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE.

SO, THEY DO HAVE -- THEY STILL HAVE INFLUENCE.

IT OBVIOUSLY ISN'T AS GREAT AS IT ONCE WAS, BUT LOOKING BACK TO SOME RECENT SUCCESSES, I DON'T THINK THE HEALTHY WORKPLACES ACT OR THE AMENDMENTS TO THE PUBLIC EMPLOYEES BARGAINING ACT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF IT WEREN'T FOR ORGANIZED LABOR.

>> Lou: MUCH OF THE STATE AND NATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT THE ECONOMY REVOLVES AROUND WALL STREET, THE STOCK MARKET, GDP, JOB REPORTS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

IN OTHER WORDS, IT IS USUALLY HELD FROM A PERSPECTIVE OF POWER, OF CORPORATIONS, BUSINESS INTERESTS.

IT SEEMS PRETTY FAR FROM THE ORIGINAL CONCEPT OF LABOR DAY WHICH BEGAN AS A CELEBRATION OF LABORS' ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

WHAT IS THE CURRENT STATE OF THE ECONOMY FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE LABOR MOVEMENT IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Mr. Curtice: I THINK THAT IN MY IMPRESSION THAT THE CURRENT STATE OF THE ECONOMY IS THAT IT ISN'T WORKING FOR ALL WORKERS.

THE ECONOMY THE GAP BETWEEN THE HAS AND HAS NOTS, HAS NOT SHRUNK AND HAS ARGUABLY INCREASED.

AND, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE MAIN DRIVERS FOR ME PERSONALLY BEING A LABOR LAWYER IS TO RECTIFY THAT, IS TO TRY TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD, TO HAVE THE ECONOMY BENEFIT BOTH LABOR AND CAPITAL THAT IS CLOSE TO EQUALLY AS POSSIBLE.

AND THAT CERTAINLY IS NOT THE CASE CURRENTLY.

SO, I HOPE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE LABOR MOVEMENT IS ABLE TO OFFSET SOME OF THE EXCESSES OF UNREGULATED CAPITAL WHICH WOULD CONCENTRATE WEALTH IN THE HANDS OF THE FEW, AS OPPOSED TO THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY GENERATE THE WEALTH THROUGH THEIR LABOR.

AND THAT IS WHY I DO WHAT I DO.

I THINK A FOCUS ON THE GAP BETWEEN THE HAVES AND THE HAVE NOTS AND THE RATE OF RETURN FOR A PROFIT TO CAPITAL VERSUS TO LABOR IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD FOCUS ON MORE THAN SOME OF THE OTHER STATISTICS THAT YOU MENTIONED.

>> Lou: IN ADDITION TO THE WORK THAT YOU DO AND JUST DESCRIBED, WHAT ELSE IS NEEDED IN NEW MEXICO TO ENSURE PROPER WAGES AND WORKING CONDITIONS.

>> Mr. Curtice: I THINK THERE ARE SEVERAL EXCELLENT ORGANIZATIONS IN NEW MEXICO, SOMOS UN PUEBLO UNIDO IS AN ADVOCACY GROUP FOR POTENTIALLY UNDOCUMENTED EMPLOYEES.

EL CENTRO ALSO PROVIDES SERVICES TO THE IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF EXPLOITATION IN MY EXPERIENCE OF WORKERS IN THE IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY, WHETHER DOCUMENTED OR UNDOCUMENTED.

SO THOSE TYPES OF ORGANIZATIONS ARE VITAL.

WAGE THEFT IS FAIRLY PREVALENT IN THE TYPES OF INDUSTRIES THAT IMMIGRANT WORKERS TEND TO WORK IN.

I THINK ALSO AGGRESSIVE -- WE ARE BLESSED WITH A PRETTY STRONG DEPARTMENT OF WORK FORCE SOLUTIONS.

BUT THEY, LIKE A LOT OF AGENCIES, THEY NEED RESOURCES THE SAME AS MANY OTHERS.

AND THEY PROVIDE MECHANISMS FOR EMPLOYEES WHO FEEL LIKE THEY ARE THE VICTIM OF WAGE THEFT TO GET RELIEF WITHOUT HAVING TO GO AND CONTACT AN ATTORNEY.

AND THOSE ARE VERY VITAL BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME OF THESE WAGE THEFT CASES ARE OF RELATIVELY SMALL AMOUNTS SUCH THAT IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO HAVE AN ATTORNEY AGREE TO TAKE THEM ON BUT ARE VITAL FOR THE WORKER.

AND SO HAVING A SWIFT AND EFFECTIVE ADMINISTRATIVE REMEDY THAT CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED WITHOUT INVOLVING A LAWYER IS PRETTY IMPORTANT, I THINK.

I THINK ALSO, OUR STATE GOVERNMENT LAWS, I THINK, ARE GENERALLY NOT BAD IN TERMS OF BEING FAVORABLE TO LABOR, BUT STATE GOVERNMENT IS HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH RECRUITING AS ANY OTHER EMPLOYERS ARE THESE DAYS AND SO INCREASING THE RANKS OF THE STATE EMPLOYEES ENFORCING, FOR EXAMPLE, IN NEW MEXICO, OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION ACT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT.

>> Lou: OKAY.

QUICKLY, AS WE WRAP UP HERE, WHAT IS THE OUTLOOK FOR WORKERS AND UNIONS IN NEW MEXICO MOVING FORWARD.

IF THERE WAS A SPECTRUM OF HOME AND DESPAIR, WHERE WOULD YOU PLACE US AT THIS POINT?

>> Mr. Curtice: SO I HAVE A SORT OF A KIND OF A BI CAMERA MIND ON THAT.

I SIMULTANEOUSLY EXPERIENCE HOPE AND DESPAIR.

THE DESPAIR COMES FROM, YOU KNOW, THE RECENT DECISION OF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT SEEMS TO BE QUESTIONING THE VERY BASIS OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE STATE IN NEW MEXICO.

SO, IN THE LAST TERM WE HAD THE JARKESY DECISION INVOLVING THE SEC AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY COULD PURSUE REMEDIES WITHOUT PROVIDING A JURY TRIAL FOR THE POTENTIAL PEOPLE VIOLATING SECURITIES LAWS.

THAT MAY HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE NATIONAL LABOR RELATIONS BOARD.

IN MY OPINION, IT SHOULDN'T BUT IT MAY.

THERE HAS ALSO BEEN THE LOPER BRIGHT DECISION WHICH QUESTIONS THE NOTION OF DEFERRAL TO ADMINISTRATIVE AGENCIES' INTERPRETATIONS OF STATUTES.

SO, LEGALLY IT SEEMS LIKE THERE SEEMS TO BE AN ASSAULT, PERHAPS, IS TOO STRONG A WORD BUT QUESTIONING OF THE ADMINISTRATIVE STATE THAT PROVIDES MUCH OF THE PROTECTION OF THE WORKER IN THE UNITED STATES.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF POLLING OF SUPPORT FOR UNIONS AND CERTAINLY AMONG YOUNG EMPLOYEES, SUPPORT FOR UNIONS HAS NEVER BEEN HIGHER LITERALLY, NEVER BEEN HIGHER SINCE THE POLLING HAS BEEN DONE.

THAT GIVES ME SOME HOPE.

THAT, COUPLED WITH SOME OF THE ORGANIC ORGANIZING DRIVES THAT I HAVE SEEN POP UP, FOR EXAMPLE, STARBUCKS, WHICH WERE NOT TOP DOWN DRIVEN UNION CAMPAIGN ORGANIZED, THEY WERE BOTTOM UP CAMPAIGNS FROM STARBUCKS EMPLOYEES.

THEY WERE SORT OF FED UP WITH THE WORKING CONDITIONS.

THAT GIVES ME A LOT OF HOPE THAT CARRIES FORWARD TO, IN NEW MEXICO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNM AND NMSU, THEIR GRADUATE STUDENT WORKERS ORGANIZED RECENTLY, AND HAVE SEEN SOME SIGNIFICANT SUCCESSES AT THE BARGAINING TABLE.

SO, I STILL MAINTAIN PERHAPS A LITTLE POLLYANNA-ISH BUT I STILL MAINTAIN A CERTAIN OPTIMISM FOR THE FUTURE WITH THE SUPPORT THAT UNIONS ENJOY AMONG YOUNG EMPLOYEES.

>> Lou: ALL RIGHT.

STEPHEN CURTICE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Mr. Curtice: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Lou: THANKS TO STEPHEN CURTICE.

WE'LL GET BACK TO THE LARGER CONVERSATION AROUND OUR STATE'S WORKFORCE IN JUST A MOMENT, BUT FIRST AN UPDATE IN A CASE WITH TRANSPARENCY IMPLICATIONS AHEAD OF THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

FEDERAL JUDGES ORDERING NEW MEXICO ELECTION REGULATORS TO TURN OVER VOTER ROLES TO REPUBLICAN-BACKED GROUPS WANTING TO PUBLISH THEN ONLINE.

ALBUQUERQUE BASED U.S. DISTRICT COURT JUDGE JAMES BROWNING, RULED LAST MONTH IN FAVOR OF THE VOTER REFERENCE FOUNDATION.

SAYING STATE OFFICIALS WRONGFULLY REFUSED ACCESS TO VOTER DATA.

THE FOUNDATION'S WEBSITE, VOTE REF.COM HOSTS THE DATA BASE WITH VOTER INFORMATION FROM MORE THAN 32 STATES.

IT IS RUN BY THE CHAIR OF THE ARIZONA REPUBLICAN PARTY.

NOW, NEW MEXICO ISN'T THE ONLY STATE TO RAISE ALARM ABOUT THIS AND OTHER EFFORTS TO GAIN ACCESS TO STATE VOTER ROLLS.

STATE ELECTION OFFICIALS SAY THE LIST COULD FIND THEIR WAY INTO THE HANDS OF MALICIOUS ACTORS WITH THE INTENTION OF DISENFRANCHISING VOTERS THROUGH INTIMIDATION.

BUT JUDGE BROWNING RULED STATE ELECTION REGULATORS ENGAGED IN VIEWPOINT-BASED DISCRIMINATION AND FREE SPEECH VIOLATIONS IN DENYING THE VOTER REFERENCE FOUNDATION ACCESS TO VOTER DATA.

NEW MEXICO'S LISTINGS HAVE RETURNED TO THE WEBSITE WITH A SEARCHABLE DATA BASE THAT INCLUDES PARTY AFFILIATIONS AND STREET ADDRESSES OF VOTERS.

STATE PROSECUTORS SAY THEY PLAN TO APPEAL THE RULING.

NOW, BACK TO LABOR IN NEW MEXICO.

WE ARE GOING TO ZOOM IN ON THE STATE'S BIGGEST INDUSTRY AND THE WORKERS WHO KEEP IT UP AND RUNNING.

OIL AND GAS ACCOUNTS FOR 8% OF THE STATE'S WORKFORCE.

IN PRODUCTION, THE PERMIAN BASIN HAS BROUGHT BILLIONS IN REVENUE TO STATE COFFERS.

WAGES ARE RELATIVELY HIGH AND THE POPULATION OF THE SURROUNDING AREA IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO IS BOOMING.

YET A MAJORITY OF OIL AND GAS WORKERS SURVEYED IN A NEW REPORT FROM UNM CENTER FOR SOCIAL POLICY SAY THEY DON'T WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO WORK IN THE INDUSTRY.

THE RECENTLY PUBLISHED SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO OIL AND GAS WORKFORCE STUDY HIGHLIGHTS BIG PAYDAYS, BUT ALSO 12-HOUR WORK DAYS AND DANGEROUS CONDITIONS.

ONE OF THE STUDY'S AUTHORS, DR. GABRIEL SANCHEZ JOINED CORRESPONDENT ELIZABETH MILLER IN OUR STUDIO TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HE FOUND AND WHY THE STUDY FOCUSED ON HISPANIC AND LATINO WORKERS.

HERE IS THAT CONVERSATION WHICH ORIGINALLY AIRED IN MARCH.

>> Ms. Miller: SO TELL US ABOUT THIS STUDY.

WHO ARE THESE OIL AND GAS WORKERS AND WHAT SORT OF CONDITIONS DID YOU FIND THEY WERE WORKING IN?

>> Dr. Sanchez: SO, THIS STUDY WAS ESSENTIALLY A FOLLOW-UP TO A LOT OF WORK WE HAD DONE IN TALKING TO MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY ABOUT THE TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY, BUT WE NOTICED LIKE A BIG MISSING LINK TO THAT RESEARCH, SPECIFICALLY TALKING TO OIL AND GAS WORKERS.

THIS STUDY FOCUSED NOT ONLY ON OIL AND GAS WORKERS BUT LATINO OIL AND GAS WORKERS IN THE PERMIAN BASIN, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY THE HOT BED FOR OIL COUNTRY IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

ESSENTIALLY YOU WANT TO KNOW A FEW THINGS.

ONE IS WHAT ARE THE WORKING CONDITIONS WITHIN THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS SEGMENT OF THE WORKFORCE.

AND THINKING BIGGER PICTURE AS WE ARE GOING TO TRANSITION AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS, SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WE WANT TO FIND OUT, ARE THESE WORKERS INTERESTED IN TRANSITIONING TO CLEAN ENERGY JOBS OR OTHER INDUSTRIES?

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE IN TERMS OF THEIR WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING NEEDS, AND, YOU KNOW, IF WE WANT TO PUT THOSE WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING NEEDS IN PLAY, SHOULD THAT BE IN ENGLISH, SPANISH.

CAN IT BE DONE VIRTUALLY?

A LOT OF REALLY IN-DEPTH INSIGHTS TO TRY TO INFORM WORKFORCE SOLUTIONS ON SOME OF THE PLANS MOVING FORWARD.

>> Ms. Miller: YOU SAID THE STUDY FOCUSED ON THE LATINO WORKFORCE.

WHY WAS THAT?

>> Dr. Sanchez: THAT IS RIGHT, YEAH.

THAT IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GOT ME REALLY INTERESTED IN TAKING ON THIS PROJECT.

I WAS NOT AWARE THAT THE WORKFORCE WAS HEAVILY LATINO.

ROUGHLY 40% OF ALL OIL AND GAS WORKERS IN NEW MEXICO ARE LATINO, A LOT OF THEM IMMIGRANT.

I THINK A LOT OF US WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT OIL AND GAS WORKERS, THE ASSUMPTION I ALWAYS MADE IS THESE FOLKS MUST BE FROM TEXAS.

I DIDN'T REALIZE A LOT OF THESE FOLKS ARE LATINO AND FROM HERE, FROM THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO AND WANT TO STAY HERE.

>> Ms. Miller: WHAT KIND OF CONDITIONS DID YOU HEAR THEY WERE REPORTING FROM THE FIELD?

>> Dr. Sanchez: PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT FOR US TO THINK ABOUT, NOT ONLY FOR ADDRESSING THESE ISSUES NOW, BUT ALSO MAKING SURE AS WE TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE WE DON'T CARRY A LOT OF THIS WITH US, IS THE DANGEROUS NATURE OF THE JOBS.

YOU KNOW, WE ASKED IN QUALITATIVE INTERVIEWS AND IN SURVEYS FROM OIL AND GAS WORKFORCE DIRECTLY, HAVE YOU YOURSELF WITNESSED AN ACCIDENT?

HAVE YOU BEEN UNFORTUNATELY SOMEBODY HARMED BY AN ACCIDENT.

OVERWHELMINGLY, 80% OF THE PEOPLE WE SPOKE WITH SAID THEY THEMSELVES HAVE WITNESSED AN ACCIDENT ON THE JOB AND 20% HAVE HAD A SERIOUS ACCIDENT THEMSELVES ON THE JOB.

PROBABLY THE BIGGEST TAKE HOME MESSAGE IS WHEN YOU ASK FOLKS AT THE END OF DAY WHAT HAPPENED, UNFORTUNATELY WE LEARNED THERE IS A LOT OF CASUALTIES AND VERY SERIOUS INJURIES OUT ON THE JOB, BUT THE TAKE HOME MESSAGE WAS, OVERWHELMINGLY THEY SAID THESE CAN BE PREVENTED.

WE CAN DO LESS OF THIS IF WE DID BETTER TRAINING AND PUT BETTER OVERALL SAFETY STANDARDS INTO THE WORKFORCE.

THAT IS ONE OF THE BIG TAKE-HOME MESSAGES.

OBVIOUSLY WE WANT TO ADDRESS THIS NOW BUT LET'S NOT REPEAT THE SAME DYNAMIC AS WE TRANSITION TO OTHER INDUSTRIES THAT ARE GOING TO REPLACE FOSSIL FUEL.

>> Ms. Miller: THAT IS A REALLY GREAT POINT.

THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY HAS A REPUTATION FOR CREATING HIGH PAYING JOBS, BUT WHAT DID YOUR RESEARCH FIND?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH, AND A LOT OF WHAT WE TRY TO DO IN THIS STYLE OF RESEARCH IS ADDRESS, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES MYTH, SOMETIMES THERE IS LOT OF FACT-BASED IN WHAT WE HEAR ABOUT THIS WORKFORCE, BUT LIKE OF LOT OF NEW MEXICANS I PERCEIVED MOST OF THIS WORKFORCE MADE SIX FIGURES.

THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO THAT.

A LOT OF THE MEMBERS OF THE WORKFORCE WE TALKED TO GET PAID VERY, VERY WELL.

BUT TWO INSIGHTS FROM THIS IS, MOST FOLKS THAT ARE GENERATING HIGH SALARIES WORK A LOT OF OVERTIME.

IN FACT, I THINK THE AVERAGE NUMBER OF WORK HOURS PER DAY WAS 12 HOURS IN THE FOLKS THAT WE TALKED WITH THAT SPECIFICALLY WORKED IN THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.

A LOT OF THEM DO MAKE A LOT OF HIGH PAYING JOBS BUT IT COMES WITH TRADEOFFS.

A LOT OF THAT IS VERY, VERY LONG WORK DAYS, WHICH IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THAT IS WHAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, POTENTIAL INJURIES, RIGHT, THAT IS PROBABLY NOT THE GREATEST RECIPE FOR SUCCESS IN PREVENTING ON-THE-JOB INJURIES AND ACCIDENTS OF THAT NATURE.

WE ALSO LEARNED THAT A LARGE SEGMENT, I THINK 20% OF THE FOLKS WE TALKED TO, MAKE $20,000 OR LESS.

AND LOT OF THOSE FOLKS ARE IN SPILLOVER INDUSTRIES THAT SUPPORT THE OIL AND GAS INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT NOT DIRECTLY, YOU KNOW, IN THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY THEMSELVES.

SO, WE WANTED TO TAKE A PRETTY COMPREHENSIVE LOOK AT THIS AND FIGURE OUT NOT JUST THE FOLKS THAT ARE MAKING REALLY GOOD; INCOMES, BUT WHAT ABOUT EVERYBODY ELSE?

DO THEY STILL HAVE TO WORK OVERTIME JUST TO BARELY GET BY.

AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT I MYSELF LEARNED IN ADDITION TO FOLKS THAT TOOK A LOOK AT THE REPORT.

>> Ms. Miller: SO, THEY ARE REALLY MAKING SOME OF THESE COMPROMISES, LIKE WORKING LONG HOURS AND RISKING INJURY, TAKING TIME AWAY FROM FAMILY, TAKING TIME AWAY AT THIS POINT TO TRAIN FOR OTHER JOBS, EVEN.

>> Dr. Sanchez: THAT IS RIGHT AND UNFORTUNATELY A LOT OF SEGMENTS DON'T HAVE A LOT OF THE TYPICAL BENEFIT INFRASTRUCTURE MANY OF US TAKE FOR GRANTED.

A LOT IS A TRADEOFF.

YOU MIGHT HAVE A PRETTY GOOD INCOME BUT YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT OF THE OTHER SAFETY PROTOCOLS IN PLACE.

A LOT OF THAT IS LIKE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.

WE KNOW IN THIS INDUSTRY, IN PARTICULAR, WE HAVE ALL WITNESSED IT, IT GOES UP AND DOWN, RIGHT?

SO IN SOME OF THOSE DOWN PERIODS, THE WORK FORCE DOESN'T HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OR AT LEAST UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE THAT GETS THEM CLOSE TO WHAT THEY MAKE IN TERMS OF INCOME, RIGHT?

THAT IS A LOOPHOLE THAT I THINK PARTLY THIS STUDY CAN HELP INFORM AND TRY TO ADDRESS WITH POLICY DOWN THE LINE.

>> Ms. Miller: WHAT POLICY DECISIONS COULD BE MADE IN THE SHORT TERM TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE POOR WORKING CONDITIONS AND POOR PAY FOR THIS WORKFORCE?

>> Dr. Sanchez: WELL, I'LL SAY A BIG CHUNK OF THIS RESEARCH WITH OUR PARTNERSHIP WITH SOMOS UN PUEBLO UNIDO, WHO COMMISSIONED THE STUDY, THEY ARE VERY, VERY EFFECTIVE AT EDUCATING THE STATE LEGISLATURE, IDENTIFYING WHAT NEEDS TO BE PUT IN PLACE, AND THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL IN THIS LEGISLATIVE SESSION WITH A COUPLE OF VICTORIES THAT I THINK WERE AT LEAST PARTLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO WHAT WE FOUND IN THIS STUDY.

ONE OF THEM IS, I KNOW THERE IS FIVE MILLION DOLLARS INVESTED IN ADULT WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING AND SPECIFICALLY FOR HARD-TO-REACH WORKERS LIKE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW IN THE PERMIAN BASIN, HEAVILY SPANISH SPEAKERS, ET CETERA.

ONE OF THE MAIN FINDINGS WE FOUND IN OUR STUDY IS A LOT OF THE RESOURCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE FOR RETRAINING FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ARE NOT AVAILABLE TO A LARGE SEGMENT OF THE IMMIGRANT WORKFORCE, WHICH, UNFORTUNATELY IN OUR STATE, RIGHT, COMPRISES A LARGE SEGMENT OF FOLKS.

THIS FIVE MILLION FROM THE STATE SPECIFICALLY IS FLEXIBLE TO BE ABLE TO REACH MIXED STATUS FAMILIES.

AND I THINK THAT DIRECTLY ADDRESSES ONE ASPECT OF OUR REPORT.

WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO FILL SOME GAPS IN FEDERAL FUNDING AND I THINK THIS DOES JUST THAT.

I THINK THAT IS A PRETTY IMPORTANT WIN.

WE ALSO LEARNED IN THE STUDY THAT A LARGE SEGMENT OF THE WORKFORCE POSITIVELY ARE INTERESTED IN GETTING RETRAINING BUT THEY SAY, LOOK, I WORK A LOT OF HOURS, IF I AM GOING TO DO ANY WORKFORCE TRAINING, THAT IS TAKING TIME AWAY, I NEED TO BE ABLE TO BE PAID FOR THAT OR HAVE SOME TYPE OF SUBSIDY OR BENEFIT FINANCIALLY TO BE ABLE TO TAKE OFF TIME FROM WORK.

I KNOW THERE IS A PILOT PROGRAM THAT WAS FUNDED IN THE STATE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

I THINK IT PUTS A MILLION DOLLARS IN PLAY FOR LOW INCOME WORKERS THAT ARE CURRENTLY GOING THROUGH ANY KIND OF WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT TRAINING AND IT PAYS THEM A MONTHLY STIPEND TO OFFSET SOME OF THE MISSED HOURS FROM WORK.

>> Ms. Miller: AND YOUR STUDY LOOKED SPECIFICALLY AT WOMEN WORKING IN THE OIL AND GAS AND WORKING IN INDUSTRIES THAT ARE SORT OF ASSOCIATED AND BENEFIT OFF THE SIDE OF OIL AND GAS.

WHAT DID YOU FIND WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THEIR OPTIONS AND LIMITATIONS?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH, YOU KNEE, WE OFTEN THINK, YOU KNOW, TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY, YOU KNOW, OUR TEAM AT UNM WE ARE JUST TRANSITIONING TO CLEAN ENERGY, OVERALL RESEARCH TEAM REALLY THINKING ABOUT THIS COMPREHENSIVELY.

WE HAVE TO THINK OIL AND GAS WORKERS ARE GOING TO BE DISPLACED.

BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE SPILL-OVER ECONOMIES, RIGHT?

YOU THINK ABOUT THE PERMIAN BASIN, SAN JUAN, THESE AREAS, RIGHT, THEY HAVE A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE, RESTAURANTS, ALL THE BUSINESSES THAT FEED OFF THE WORKFORCE THERE TO WORK IN FOSSIL FUELS.

WE WANTED TO FIND OUT WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WOMEN IN THESE AREAS, WHAT ARE THEY THINKING ABOUT BEING RETRAINED?

WHAT ARE THEIR THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT THE FUTURE LOOKS LIKE AND VERY SIMILAR TO THE OIL AND GAS WORKERS THEMSELVES, VERY INTERESTED IN GETTING TRAINED TO DO OTHER JOBS.

THEY RECOGNIZE THE FUTURE IS COMING AND THEY WANT TO BE PART OF THAT FUTURE BUT MAYBE ONE OF THE BIGGEST TAKE-HOME MESSAGES IS, IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT A REALITY, A LARGE SEGMENT OF THESE WOMEN ARE GOING TO NEED CHILD CARE, EITHER PROVIDED DIRECTLY, RIGHT, BY HOWEVER THEY ARE GOING TO GET TRAINED, OR INDIRECTLY BEING ABLE TO LOOK FOR AFFORDABLE BUT HIGH QUALITY EARLY CHILDHOOD.

THAT IS AN AREA WE HAVE BEEN DOING A LOT OF WORK IN THIS SPACE FOR SOME TIME.

THAT IS NOT A NEW FINDING, BUT WHAT WAS NEW IN THE STUDY IS WE SPECIFICALLY TALKED TO A LOT OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO, FOLKS THAT ACTUALLY PROVIDE THIS LEVEL OF SERVICE, RIGHT?

BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE TRAINING, WHETHER IT IS IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE CLASSES, GED, ET CETERA.

AND THOSE FOLKS TOLD US DIRECTLY, THEY RECOGNIZE THEY NEED MORE FUNDING TO MEET THE CURRENT DEMAND AS WELL AS IT IS GOING TO GROW OVER TIME AS MORE OF THESE FOLKS LOOK TO FIND EMPLOYMENT IN OTHER INDUSTRIES.

>> Ms. Miller: GOT IT.

AND THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE RECENTLY ARRIVED IN THE AREA?

THE POPULATION THERE IS GROWING.

THEY SEEM TO WANT TO SETTLE DOWN AND ESTABLISH SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO, SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO AS HOME.

BUT WHAT DO YOU HEAR ABOUT WHETHER THEY WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO WORK IN THIS INDUSTRY?

AND WHAT OPTIONS ARE AVAILABLE TO THEM, OR WHAT ALTERNATIVES ARE AVAILABLE?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH, A COUPLE OF IMPORTANT INCITES FROM THE WORK THAT YOU NOTED ON IS A LARGE SEGMENT LIKE OVERWHELMINGLY I THINK, WE ONLY TALKED TO ONE PERSON ACROSS ALL THE SURVEYS OR FOCUS GROUPS WHO SAID THEY WEREN'T INTERESTED IN STAYING IN THE PERMIAN BASIN LONG-TERM.

SO THESE FOLKS HAVE RAISED FAMILIES HERE, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO SEE THEIR KIDS GROW UP IN THE SAME REGION THEY SPENT A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF TIME IN.

WHEN WE ASKED THEM WHAT DO THOSE JOB PROSPECTS LOOK LIKE FOR YOUR CHILDREN, A LOT OF THEM SAID, LOOK, WE KNOW THAT OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY PAYS A GOOD LIVING, BUT WE WOULD LOVE OR KIDS TO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES THAT ARE NOT AS DANGEROUS AND DON'T HAVE THE BOOM AND BUST RHYTHM TO IT THAT WE ALL KNOW THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY DOES.

SO THEY ARE LOOKING TO US TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ARE THE JOB INFRASTRUCTURE PLANS LOOKING LIKE IN THE STATE, WHERE THERE WILL BE GOOD PAYING JOBS THAT WILL BE HERE IN SOUTHEASTERN NEW MEXICO SO THAT OUR KIDS DON'T HAVE TO LEAVE THE REGION.

IN FACT PART OF THE STUDY ACTUALLY SURVEYED A LOT OF YOUNG ADULTS SPECIFICALLY IN THESE COUNTIES, THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, 18 TO 25 YEARS OLD.

AND WE ASKED THEM, WHAT DO YOUR PROSPECTS LOOK LIKE?

OVERWHELMINGLY, THEY WANT TO STAY IN THE REGION BUT THEY REALIZE, RIGHT, JOBS ARE LIMITED AND THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET TRAINED IN SOME OF THE JOBS OF THE FUTURE TO BE ABLE TO STAY IN THE SAME PLACES THEY GREW AND THEY WANT TO RAISE THEIR KIDS IN.

>> Ms. Miller: WE KNOW THERE IS AN AMBITION TO SEE CLEAN ENERGY JOBS BECOME SOME OF THOSE CAREERS THAT LIKE PEOPLE TRANSITION INTO, BUT IS THERE A GEOGRAPHIC MISMATCH BETWEEN WHERE FOSSIL FUEL JOBS ARE NOW AND WHERE CLEAN ENERGY JOBS WILL BE IN THE FUTURE?

>> Dr. Sanchez: YEAH, I MEAN, WE HAVE DONE QUITE A BIT OF RESEARCH IN THIS SPACE LOOKING AT WHAT IS GOING ON IN OTHER STATES, LOOKING AT SURVEYS OF OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY OVERALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY TRYING TO ANSWER SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS.

IN ESSENCE, RIGHT, IF WE'RE BUILDING OUT THE INFRASTRUCTURE, HOW DO YOU DO IT RIGHT TO NOW MAKE SURE THAT NATIVE NEW MEXICANS HAVE ACCESS TO THE JOBS IN THE FUTURE.

A COUPLE OF THINGS TO NOTE FROM THE BODY OF WORK THAT WE CONDUCTED, ONE IS UNFORTUNATELY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE OIL AND GAS WORKFORCE, IT IS NOT THE MOST DIVERSE.

IN FACT, IT IS ONE OF THE LEAST DIVERSE OF ANY SECTORS IN THE COUNTRY.

TENDING TO BE OLDER, A LITTLE BIT MORE WHITE THAN THE AVERAGE WORKFORCE AND NOT VERY FEMALE IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL WORKFORCE DYNAMICS IN TERMS OF GENDER.

SO IF WE WANT THE JOBS OF THE FUTURE TO LOOK LIKE NEW MEXICO, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT ACTION STEPS IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE IT LOOKS LIKE THE STATE, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS MUCH MORE DIVERSE ACROSS ALL THESE DIMENSIONS THAN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NATIONAL WORKFORCE FOR CLEAN ENERGY JOBS.

THE UPSIDE IS WHEN YOU LOOK SPECIFICALLY TO NEW MEXICO, WHAT DOES THE CLEAN ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE LOOK LIKE, WHERE WERE THESE JOBS BE PLACED, MOST OF IT IS GOING TO BE IN RURAL AREAS OF THE STATE.

WHEN WE ASKED, HOWEVER, THE VOTING POPULATION IN SURVEYS, WHAT IS YOUR PERCEPTION ABOUT HOW THINGS ARE GOING TO LOOK, THEIR PERCEPTION IS ALL THE JOBS ARE GOING TO BE IN SANTA FE AND ALBUQUERQUE.

SO A LOT OF IT IS DISPELLING MYTHS THAT THERE WILL BE A LOT OF RELATIVELY HIGH PAYING JOBS AVAILABLE TO FOLKS IN RURAL AREAS OF THE STATE, BUT, AGAIN, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET ADVANCED TRAINING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY TRAINED UP FOR SOME OF THESE JOBS.

GOOD NEWS IS, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PHD'S IN ENGINEERING OR BIOCHEMISTRY.

A LOT OF THESE JOBS, IN FACT, PAY BETTER AT THE LOWER LEVELS OF EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT THAN SIMILAR JOBS IN OTHER INDUSTRIES WITH THAT LEVEL OF EDUCATION.

YOU DO NEED TO HAVE SOME BASIC CREDENTIALS AND YOU DO NEED TO HAVE SOME BASIC TRAINING TO BE ABLE TO BE AVAILABLE AND ELIGIBLE FOR SOME OF THESE JOBS IN THE FUTURE.

>> Ms. Miller: SO OPPORTUNITIES TO QUICKLY TRANSITION IF WE CAN SORT OF SMOOTH THE PATH THERE?

BIG PICTURE, WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THE WORKFORCE IN THIS INDUSTRY AND THE CHALLENGES THAT THEY FACE?

>> Dr. Sanchez: I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE ALL KNOW THAT THE STATE'S ECONOMY IS LARGELY DRIVEN BY THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY, RIGHT?

THAT IS JUST WHAT IT IS.

I DON'T THINK A LOT OF US LOOK DEEPER INTO FIGURING OUT WHO ARE THE WORKERS?

WHAT IS THEIR FUTURE GOING TO LOOK LIKE, AS THESE JOBS -- AND THEY ARE ACUTELY AWARE OF THIS, RIGHT?

THEY WOULD TELL US DIRECTLY WE KNOW THESE JOBS ARE GOING AWAY.

IT IS SCARY.

WE WANT TO BE AT LEAST A FORWARD THINKER IN TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR FAMILIES ARE TAKEN CARE OF WHEN ALL THIS TRANSITION HAPPENS, BUT I THINK MAKING SURE THAT WORKFORCE, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT STATEMENT WE ALL MAKE, A JUST TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY.

IN ESSENCE WHAT THAT MEANS IS WE ALL KNOW FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS WE ARE MOVING IN THIS DIRECTION AND THOSE ARE GOOD THINGS FOR THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO IN TERMS OF OUR ENVIRONMENT AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT GOES ALONG WITH IT, BUT WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE ANYBODY OUT IN THAT TRANSITION AND LEAVE THEM BEHIND.

I THINK THE OIL AND GAS WORKFORCE ARE PROBABLY FRONT AND CENTER WHO MIGHT BE MOST DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED IN A BAD WAY FROM A VERY POSITIVE TRANSITION.

I THINK A LOT OF OUR TEAM'S RESEARCH IS REALLY AIMED AT MAKING SURE THAT THOSE WORKERS VOICES ARE INCLUDED IN THE POLICY DISCUSSIONS MOVING FORWARD, BECAUSE THEY WILL TELL US IN THEIR OWN WORDS, THEY DON'T FEEL THAT EITHER THE STATE POLICYMAKERS OR THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY ACTIVELY ASKED FOR THEIR OPINIONS.

AND HOPEFULLY THESE TYPES OF REPORTS THAT DIRECTLY GET THEIR OPINIONS AND THEIR VOICES ON THESE SUBJECTS, RIGHT, GIVE THEM A LITTLE BIT CONFIDENCE THEY ARE NOT BEING LEFT OUT OF THE DISCUSSION.

>> Ms. Miller: THAT IS GREAT AND HEARING FROM THEM AND TAKING THAT DIRECTLY TO THE ROUNDHOUSE, AS YOU HAVE DONE, THAT IS GREAT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON AN TALKING TO US ABOUT SOME OF THE RESEARCH.

>> Dr. Sanchez: GREATLY APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE RESEARCH AND HOPEFULLY, AGAIN, IT INFORMS SOME OF THE WIDER SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION ABOUT SOME OF THESE NUANCES ASSOCIATED WITH TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY.

>> Ms. Miller: ABSOLUTELY, THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO ELIZABETH MILLER AND DR. GABRIEL SANCHEZ.

NOW BACK TO MY INTERVIEW WITH UNM LABOR HISTORIAN DR. JASON SMITH.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF OUR CONVERSATION, I ASK DR. SMITH IF THE PERCEPTION OF A SHRINKING MIDDLE CLASS IS ACCURATE AND WHAT POLICY REMEDIES COULD HELP NARROW GROWING ECONOMIC INEQUALITY.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE MIDDLE CLASS FOR A LITTLE WHILE, THE PERCEPTION OF THE MIDDLE CLASS.

WHAT ARE MIDDLE CLASS JOBS IN 2024 AND HOW DOES THE STANDARD OF LIVING FOR THOSE WORKERS COMPARE TO THAT OF PEOPLE DECADES EARLIER?

>> Dr. Smith: THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION AND IT IS A COMPLICATED QUESTION BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO COMPARE OVERTIME.

BUT, YOU KNOW, OCCUPATIONS TODAY THAT PROVIDE AND SUPPORT A MIDDLE CLASS EXISTENCE FOR WORKERS, WE CAN SEE THIS IN THE HEALTHCARE FIELD, HEALTHCARE SECTOR, IN PARTS OF THE EDUCATIONAL SECTOR.

LEGAL SERVICES, BUSINESSES AND FINANCIAL SERVICES, AND YOU CAN SEE IN THESE SECTORS AND WITH THESE WORKERS, THERE IS THIS ABILITY TO ACHIEVE A KIND OF MODUS VIVENDI IN TERMS OF STANDARD OF LIVING, BUT THE DIFFICULTY IS IN TERMS -- I MEAN, WE READ A LOT ABOUT INFLATION AND PRICE OF GOODS, THE PRICE OF HOUSING, ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE.

THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT ARE PREVALENT IN SOCIETY TODAY AND FOR MANY MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE ARE JUST ONE MEDICAL EMERGENCY AWAY FROM DROPPING OUT OF THE MIDDLE CLASS.

IT IS, IN PART, BECAUSE OF THE STRESSORS OF THE ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL SOCIAL EXISTENCE.

>> Lou: IS THERE ANY CORRELATION BETWEEN DECLINING UNION MEMBERSHIP AND THE SHRINKING OF AMERICA'S MIDDLE CLASS?

>> Dr. Smith: WE CAN SEE AND THE CORRELATION IS, IF WE WERE TO PLOT THIS, WE CAN SEE ARROWS GOING THE SAME DIRECTION.

I MEAN, ONE THING YOU CAN ALSO LOOK AT THIS MOMENT OF, I GUESS, AMERICAN PROSPERITY THAT WE ASSOCIATE WITH THE END OF WORLD WAR II THROUGH THE 1970'S, YOU KNOW, AMERICAN GDP PER CAPITA GROWS AT ABOUT 3% PER PERSON PER YEAR FROM 1940 THROUGH 1973.

AND WE OFTEN LOOK BACK OR REFLECT SO WE THINK OF THIS AS A KIND OF BASELINE FOR THIS IS HOW THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.

FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF 2024 WE MIGHT ALSO START TO THINK OF THAT PERIOD AS ALMOST A KIND HISTORICALLY CONTINGENT, ACCIDENTAL MOMENT WHERE A STRONG LABOR MOVEMENT COINCIDED WITH AN AMERICAN ECONOMY THAT WAS THE STRONGEST ON THE PLANET.

YOU KNOW, GERMANY WAS OFFLINE WITH WORLD WAR II IN THE AFTERMATH.

JAPAN, TWO ATOMIC BOMBS, DEVASTATION.

THE U.S.

IN ITS ECONOMY IN A LARGE SENSE, IN A GLOBAL SENSE GOT A KIND OF FREE RIDE FROM 1940 THROUGH THE 1970'S, EARLY 1970'S.

AND WE START TO SEE KIND OF THE INTENSITY OF GLOBAL COMPETITION PUT AMERICAN COMPANIES AND AMERICAN WORKERS UNDER GREATER STRESS.

AND WE ARE STILL LIVING WITH THAT KIND OF FALLOUT TODAY.

>> Lou: NOW, IT WOULD BE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAN TO REPLICATE A SCENARIO LIKE THAT AGAIN, AS I HEAR YOU SAYING, BUT IS IT POSSIBLE, GIVEN OUR CURRENT SITUATION, TO REBUILD A THRIVING MIDDLE CLASS?

>> Dr. Smith: YES.

IF IT IS A QUESTION ABOUT WHAT IS POSSIBLE, IT ALLOWS ME TO GET ON -- I WON'T ACTUALLY GET ON MY HISTORY SOAP BOX.

I LEFT IT IN THE GREEN ROOM.

BUT THIS IS WHY HISTORIANS -- HISTORY IS SUCH A GREAT DISCIPLINE AND FIELD OF STUDY.

WE CAN LOOK AT THE PAST TO UNDERSTAND IT, BUT ALSO TO GIVE US A PERSPECTIVE ON THE PRESENT AND A WAY TO IMAGINE WHAT THINGS MIGHT BE LIKE IN THE FUTURE AND HOW WE MIGHT GET THERE.

SO, LOOKING AT CONCRETE PUBLIC POLICIES THAT HAVE BEEN EFFECTIVE IN THE PAST, THAT CERTAINLY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO ROLL OUT AND HAS ROLLED OUT OVER ITS TIME IN OFFICE, THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, THE CHIPS ACT, WHAT ARE WAYS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN ASSIST WORKING PEOPLE IN MAKING STRIDES ECONOMICALLY, THAT THESE PUBLIC POLICIES, THEY CAN HAVE AN IMPACT.

THEY HAVE HAD AN IMPACT IN THE PAST AND WE CAN SEE THAT POTENTIAL FOR THEM TO HAVE IMPACT IN THE FUTURE.

SO I WOULD SAY, YES, THERE ARE POSSIBILITIES FOR MIDDLE CLASS TO BE REBUILT.

>> LOU: WE ARE GOING TO HEAR A LOT ABOUT THE ECONOMY IN THE COMING MONTHS WITH PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, OF COURSE, LOTS OF TALK ABOUT SUCCESSES AND FAILURES OF OUR ECONOMY BROADLY, BUT THOSE ASSESSMENTS THEY DON'T ALWAYS CORRELATE WITH SUCCESS FOR THE FINANCIAL REALITIES OF FAMILIES, INDIVIDUALS.

HOW SHOULD WE MEASURE ECONOMIC SUCCESS IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> Dr. Sanchez: THIS IS, AGAIN, A TERRIFIC QUESTION.

WE CAN MEASURE IT IN ANY NUMBER OF WAYS.

I MEAN, WE CAN HAVE EVENTUAL SORT OF ECONOMIC MEASURES OF WHAT IS THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE?

WHAT IS HAPPENING TO REAL WAGES?

WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE ECONOMIC POSSIBILITIES, AMERICAN SAVINGS, CONSUMER DEBT.

WE CAN MEASURE IT IN THESE WAYS BUT WE CAN ALSO MEASURE IT THROUGH PUBLIC OPINION AND A KIND OF SENSE OF OPTIMISM OR PESSIMISM.

I THINK THE KIDS TODAY CALL IT VIBES THAT PEOPLE HAVE ABOUT THE ECONOMY AND ABOUT THE POTENTIAL FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR CHILDREN TO DO BETTER GOING FORWARD.

>> Lou: HOW, AS VOTERS, SHOULD WE INTERPRET THE INFORMATION THAT IS GETTING THROWN AT US FROM EITHER CANDIDATE, ANY CANDIDATE, SENATE, HOUSE, YOU NAME IT, IN TERMS OF THE SUCCESSES AND FAILURES?

HOW DO WE INTERPRET THOSE THINGS?

>> Dr. Sanchez: THERE ARE SO MANY LENSES THAT WE, AS VOTERS, AS MEDIA CONSUMERS, BRING TO THE TABLE.

I THINK GIVEN THE NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT OUR EYEBALLS ENCOUNTER EACH DAY FROM TELEVISION, FROM THE GREAT WORLD OF PBS, BUT ALSO FROM OUR PHONES, OUR COMPUTERS, INTERNET, TWITTER, X, WHATEVER IT IS CALLED TODAY, YOU KNOW, I THINK, IF ANYTHING, THE KIND OF HOW SHOULD WE INTERPRET THIS INFORMATION AND WHAT CANDIDATES SAY?

CAREFULLY.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO BE MORE SKEPTICAL THAN EVER BEFORE.

WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL IN HOW WE EVALUATE INFORMATION THAT COMES AT US AND I THINK TALK TO THE PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNITY.

TALK TO YOUR FELLOW WORKERS.

TALK TO YOUR NEIGHBORS.

BE ENGAGED.

>> Lou: UNDERSTOOD.

DR. JASON SMITH, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> Dr. Sanchez: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO DR. SMITH AND TO EVERYONE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.