♪ MUSIC REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS, AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA F. WE HAVE A VERY SPECIAL GUEST TODAY, HE CHANGES A LOT OF LIVES IN NEW MEXICO, I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH FROM YOU.

OUR GUEST IS MICHAEL S. VIGIL, OR MIKE VIGIL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>MICHAEL: THANK YOU SO MUCH, LORENE, THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

IT'S ALWAYS A GREAT PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>>LORENE: YOU ARE THE FORMER CHIEF OF INTERNATIONAL OPERATIONS FOR THE DEA, THE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION, AND YOU ARE A VERY HIGHLY DECORATED AGENT AND YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR MULTINATIONAL ARRANGEMENTS INVOLVING AS MANY AS 36 COUNTRIES.

>>MICHAEL: 36 COUNTRIES.

>>LORENE: AND THEN YOU'VE ALSO DEVELOPED GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE SHARING FOR THOSE.

>>MICHAEL: CENTERS, YES.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE, LIKE YOU SAY, THE DRUG PROBLEMS, PARTICULARLY FENTANYL, THAT WE'LL GET TO IN A MINUTE, CANNOT BE SOLVED JUST BY LAW ENFORCEMENT ALONE, THERE HAS TO BE A MULTI-PRONGED PUBLIC INFORMATION AND HEALTH DEPARTMENT.

THERE HAS TO BE A MASSIVE INFORMATION CAMPAIGN TO MAKE UP FOR ALL THE MISINFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION.

YOUR BACKGROUND, IT'S WONDERFUL, I LOVE THAT YOU WERE BORN IN ESPANOLA, YOU WENT TO NMSU AND YOU MAJORED IN CRIMINOLOGY.

HOW DID YOU END UP WITH THIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT INTERNATIONAL POSITION?

>>MICHAEL: WELL, I CAME ON BOARD WITH THE DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION WHEN I WAS VERY YOUNG, I WAS ABOUT 22 YEARS OLD, AND I STARTED WORKING UNDERCOVER.

I STARTED DOING OPERATIONS, AND I WAS AN INDIVIDUAL THAT REALLY BELIEVED IN FORMING OR FORMULATING STRATEGIES, I WAS NOT A STATUS QUO PERSON.

YOU'RE RIGHT, THE BIGGEST OPERATION THAT I DID, INVOLVED 36 COUNTRIES, MEXICO, CENTRAL, SOUTH AMERICA, AND THE CARIBBEAN AND THEN ANOTHER ONE THAT I DID WAS AFTER THE OVERTHROW OF THE TALIBAN IN 2001, I DID OPERATION CONTAINMENT.

BECAUSE AT THAT TIME AFGHANISTAN WAS THE PRIMARY PRODUCER OF HEROIN IN THE WORLD AND IN THAT REGION, THEY WERE SEIZING ABOUT FIVE KILOGRAMS EVERY YEAR OF HEROIN.

THE FIRST YEAR OF THAT OPERATION AND I DEVELOPED THE STRATEGY OVERNIGHT WHILE I WAS IN TURKEY, WHICH IS WHERE WE ALL MET TO CREATE THE STRATEGY, AND THE FIRST YEAR, WE SEIZED 24 TONS OF HEROIN IN THAT REGION.

>>LORENE: I CAN'T IMAGINE, THAT'S HUGE, INCREDIBLE.

THINK HOW MANY LIVES YOU'VE SAVED BY TAKING THAT OFF THE BLACK MARKET, THANK YOU.

>>MICHAEL: CORRECT.

THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: SO ONE OF THE WAYS I'VE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT WHAT YOU DO IS YOU'VE WRITTEN SO MANY BOOKS.

I'VE GOT TWO OF THEM HERE, THIS IS CALLED AFGHAN WARLORD , AND ANOTHER ONE, CAPO , DRUG CAPO.

WHAT DOES CAPO MEAN, JEFE, A BOSS?

>>MICHAEL: YEAH, IT MEANS LIKE THE TOP OF A CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE.

>>LORENE: RIGHT.

YOUR OTHER BOOKS ARE THE RISE OF THE SICARIO , THAT'S AN ASSASSIN, RIGHT?

>>MICHAEL: SICARIO.

>>LORENE: SICARIO.

>>MICHAEL: YEAH, HITMAN.

>>LORENE: HITMAN, WHEW.

ANOTHER ONE I LOVE IS DEAL , BUT IT'S DEA FOR DRUG ENFORCEMENT ADMINISTRATION, AND THEN L VERY COOL.

NARCO QUEEN, DRUG CAPO , WE HAD HERE, THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT CARTEL .

I SAID, OH MY GOD, IS THERE REALLY A LAND OF ENCHANTMENT CARTEL, AND YOU SAY PROBABLY BUT IT DOESN'T GO BY THAT NAME.

>>MICHAEL: WELL, I NAMED IT THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT CARTEL BECAUSE IT'S FICTION, AND THE SETTING IS HERE IN NEW MEXICO, SO I THOUGHT THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT CARTEL WOULD BE VERY APPROPRIATE.

>>LORENE: YOU DO A LOT OF PUBLIC SPEAKING, YOU DO A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL INTERVIEWS, WHENEVER SOMETHING COMES UP, THEY WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT.

ONE THING THAT'S COME UP, WELL FIRST LET'S TALK ABOUT CARTELS.

WHAT IS A CARTEL, WHERE DO THEY COME FROM?

JUST GIVE ME THREE MINUTES ON CARTELS.

>>MICHAEL: WELL, A CARTEL, DRUG CARTEL, IS A STRUCTURED ORGANIZATION THAT, YOU KNOW, PRODUCES AND DISTRIBUTES ILLEGAL DRUGS.

MANY TIMES THEY'RE A POLY DRUG, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY TRAFFIC MARIJUANA, HEROIN, COCAINE, METHAMPHETAMINE, FENTANYL, SO THEY ARE HIGHLY STRUCTURED WHERE THEY HAVE A VERTICAL STRUCTURE FOR THE MOST PART, WHERE YOU HAVE THE LEADER, THEN YOU HAVE THE ARMED WINGS OF THE CARTEL, YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT LAUNDER THE MONEY, YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT PAY BRIBES TO POLITICIANS OR SECURITY FORCES BECAUSE THEY NEED PROTECTION.

>>LORENE: YOU ALSO HAVE PEOPLE THAT PROCURE THE RAW MATERIALS AND RUN LABS TO MAKE FENTANYL AND METH AND ALL THESE OTHER DRUGS.

>>MICHAEL: YES, CORRECT.

THE CARTELS FOR EXAMPLE IN MEXICO ARE HIGHLY STRUCTURED.

YOU HAVE THE SINALOA CARTEL THAT'S THE MOST POWERFUL ONE THAT OPERATES IN SIX OF THE SEVEN CONTINENTS.

THEY DON'T OPERATE IN ANTARCTICA BECAUSE NOBODY LIVES THERE.

>>LORENE: PENGUINS.

>>MICHAEL: PENGUINS, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY.

SO THEY HAVE STRONG LOGISTICAL CHAINS AND THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT HEAD THESE CARTELS THAT HAVE VERY LITTLE EDUCATION AND YET, THEY STRUCTURE THESE NETWORKS THAT WOULD RIVAL THESE GLOBAL CORPORATIONS LIKE AMAZON.

SO NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CARTELS ARE GETTING INTO MANY OTHER THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE THEFT OF PETROLEUM.

MEXICO HAS SEVEN PETROLEUM REFINERIES, SO THEY TAP INTO THE PIPELINES AND THEY STEAL A BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF PETROLEUM EACH YEAR.

THEY'VE ALSO PENETRATED THE AVOCADO INDUSTRY.

THE AVOCADO INDUSTRY IS A $3.5 BILLION ENTERPRISE FROM MEXICO, SAME THING WITH LIMES AND LEMONS THAT WE USE A LOT HERE.

SO THEY ARE ALSO ENGAGED IN THE MOVEMENT OR SMUGGLING OF HUMAN BEINGS, MIGRANTS, AND THAT ALONE GENERATES ABOUT 12 TO 15 BILLION DOLLARS FOR THE CARTELS.

SO THEY'RE INVOLVED IN SO MANY THINGS.

THEY USE SHIPS, THEY USE JETS, THEY USE COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT TO SMUGGLE DRUGS, YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, SO THESE ARE HIGHLY STRUCTURED.

AND THEN YOU HAVE THE SINALOA CARTEL THAT BASICALLY OPERATES LIKE A MCDONALD'S.

THEY HAVE A HORIZONTAL STRUCTURE WHERE YOU HAVE DECISION-MAKING AUTHORITY THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE AND THEY OPERATE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, AS I MENTIONED, AND THEY HAVE SUBSIDIARIES LIKE MCDONALD'S.

SO THEY ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO DISMANTLE, BUT BY WORKING TOGETHER WITH MEXICO, EVEN THOUGH UNDER THIS ADMINISTRATION, IT DOESN'T APPEAR THAT THAT'S GOING TO BE REALLY THE THING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE NEED TO COORDINATE AND DEVELOP A LIAISON WITH DIFFERENT AGENCIES, DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, BECAUSE AFTER ALL, THESE CARTELS ARE MULTINATIONAL.

THEY OPERATE IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, AND DIFFERENT COUNTRIES DEVELOP BITS AND PIECES OF INTELLIGENCE, AND IF YOU COMBINE IT, YOU CAN BASICALLY DESTROY THE CARTEL OR HAVE THEM INDICTED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THEN USE EXISTING EXTRADITION TREATIES TO BRING THEM TO JUSTICE HERE.

BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY FEAR THE MOST IS EXTRADITION, REMOVES THEM FROM THEIR CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE, THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO BRIBE AND LIKE PABLO ESCOBAR ONCE SAID, "I PREFER A TOMB IN COLOMBIA THAN A JAIL IN THE UNITED STATES."

>>LORENE: YES.

ONE OF THE DISADVANTAGES OF HOW A CARTEL FUNCTION IS THAT THERE'S BEEN RECENT INFIGHTING IN THE SINALOA CARTEL AND THEY'VE LOST, THEY SAY A BILLION DOLLARS JUST BECAUSE OF THAT INFIGHTING.

THAT'S A CHUNK OF CHANGE.

>>MICHAEL: WELL, WHAT HAPPENED IS LAST YEAR, JULY 25TH, JOAQUIN GUZMAN LOPEZ, THE SON OF EL CHAPO GUZMAN, KIDNAPPED THE LEADER OF THE SINALOA CARTEL, ISMAEL MAYO ZAMBADA, AND BROUGHT HIM TO SANTA TERESA, NEW MEXICO.

IT'S A SMALL TOWN, THEY HAVE A LITTLE AIRPORT, AND THEY WERE ARRESTED THERE.

THE VIOLENCE THEN BEGAN UNTIL A COUPLE OF MONTHS LATER ON SEPTEMBER 9TH, AND YOU HAD TWO CHAPITOS, IVANA ARCHIBALDO AND JESUS ALFREDO, THAT WENT TO WAR WITH MAYO ZAMBADA'S SON, AN INDIVIDUAL THAT THEY CALL FLAQUITO MAYA.

SO NOW THEY'VE BEEN ENGAGED IN BASICALLY A WAR FOR ALMOST A YEAR, AND THERE'S BEEN 2,000 KILLINGS, THERE'S BEEN ABOUT 2,000 KIDNAPPINGS, THEY'VE HAD TO SHUTTER ABOUT 1,400 BUSINESSES, WHICH IS COSTING THE STATE OF SINALOA A BILLION DOLLARS IN TERMS OF ITS ECONOMY.

THE CHILDREN CAN'T GO TO SCHOOL BECAUSE THE PARENTS ARE AFRAID THAT THEY'RE GOING TO GET INTO A CROSSFIRE.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, JUST WALKING HOME FROM SCHOOL.

>>MICHAEL: EXACTLY.

AND CLAUDIA SCHEINBAUM HAS SENT THOUSANDS OF ARMY TROOPS, THE NATIONAL GUARD, AND THEN ALSO THE MARINES, BUT THE VIOLENCE NOW IS ESCALATING AND EXPANDING INTO THE STATES OF DURANGO, CHIHUAHUA, SONORA, AND THEN ALSO BAJA CALIFORNIA.

AND THEY'RE ESCALATING THE LEVEL AND THE TYPE OF VIOLENCE BECAUSE NOW THEY'RE DISMEMBERING PEOPLE, THEY'RE DECAPITATING PEOPLE, THEY HAVE BODIES STREWN ALL OVER THE ROADS AND IT'S GETTING WORSE BY THE DAY.

>>LORENE: WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH MIKE VIGIL, THE FORMER CHIEF OF THE INTERNATIONAL DEA, YOU'VE HAD A LOT OF EXPERIENCE.

ANOTHER TIME I'D LOVE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT YOUR UNDERCOVER OPERATIONS, BUT ONE THING THAT I WANT TO MAKE CLEAR, PEOPLE WANT TO CALL THESE TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS, BUT LAW ENFORCEMENT SAYS, DON'T DO THAT BECAUSE THEN WE CAN'T HAVE MILITARY INTERVENTION, WE HAVE TO HAVE A WAY TO CONTROL THESE PEOPLE.

AND THEY SAID THE DIFFERENCE IS TERRORISTS WANT TO TAKE OVER THE GOVERNMENT, CARTELS JUST WANT TO MAKE MONEY.

>>MICHAEL: WELL, RECENTLY DONALD TRUMP DESIGNATED SIX CARTELS IN MEXICO, TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THAT DESIGNATION IS GOING TO ALLOW MILITARY INTERVENTION, ALLOW THEM TO DO DRONE STRIKES IN MEXICO, BUT THAT'S REALLY NOT THE CASE.

THIS IS UNDER SECTION 219 OF THE IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION ACT AND IT ONLY ALLOWS FOR THREE ACTIONS BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

NUMBER ONE, IT ALLOWS THEM TO SEIZE BANK ACCOUNTS THAT EXIST HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT WE'VE BEEN DOING THAT FOR DECADES.

SECONDLY, IT WILL SANCTION AMERICAN CITIZENS THAT PROVIDE MATERIAL SUPPORT TO THE CARTELS, WE'VE BEEN DOING THAT FOR DECADES AND THEN THE THIRD ACTION IS THE UNITED STATES TRIES TO PREVENT MEMBERS OF THESE DESIGNATED GROUPS FROM COMING INTO THE UNITED STATES, AND THAT WE'VE BEEN DOING FOR DECADES AS WELL.

BUT THE CARTEL, YOU KNOW, THE TERRORIST DESIGNATION IS NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY IMPACT, THERE'S ABOUT 70 ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN DESIGNATED TERRORIST NETWORKS, YOU KNOW, LIKE AL QAEDA, ISIS, AND WHAT HAVE YOU, BUT IT'S REALLY NEVER HAD AN IMPACT.

IT'S REALLY MORE SYMBOLIC AND THERE'S OTHER ACTIONS THAT CAN BE TAKEN, BUT A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE BEING DONE NOW, LORENE, ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT.

PUTTING TROOPS ON THE BORDER IS NOT GOING TO HAVE AN IMPACT BECAUSE MOST OF THE DRUGS COME IN THROUGH THE LEGITIMATE PORTS OF ENTRY.

>>LORENE: WITH U.S. CITIZENS.

>>MICHAEL: AND IT'S U.S. CITIZENS, PRIMARILY, WHO CROSS IT, AND IT'S PRIMARILY U.S. CITIZENS THAT DISTRIBUTE IT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>>LORENE: SO THERE'S ANOTHER ASPECT TO THIS ILLEGAL TRADE, AND ONE IS WEAPONS, THE WEAPONS BUSINESS.

THERE ARE, IN THIS COUNTRY, 80,000 LICENSED GUN DEALERS, AND THAT'S MORE THAN ALL THE FAST FOOD PLACES, MCDONALD'S, WENDY'S, BURGER KING, ALL OF THOSE FRANCHISES COMBINED.

>>MICHAEL: THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THERE'S 80,000 LICENSED GUN DEALERS IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, THERE IS BETWEEN 400 MILLION AND 500 MILLION WEAPONS THAT ARE IN THE HANDS OF CIVILIANS.

THE POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES IS ABOUT 340 MILLION PEOPLE, SO, WE HAVE MORE GUNS THAN WE HAVE PEOPLE.

I'M NOT INCLUDING THE WEAPONS THAT THE MILITARY HAS OR THE NATIONAL GUARD.

I'LL GIVE YOU A FACT, THAT 80% OF THE WEAPONS THAT ARE FOUND IN MEXICO RIGHT NOW COME FROM THE UNITED STATES.

MANY OF THOSE ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE CARTELS, SO, THE QUESTION IS, WHY ARE WE ARMING THE PEOPLE THAT WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE COMBATING?

MEXICO ONLY HAS ONE GUN STORE AND THAT'S ON A MILITARY BASE NEAR MEXICO CITY AND THEY ONLY SELL ABOUT 6,500 WEAPONS, AND WE ESTIMATE THAT THERE'S BETWEEN 300,000 AND 500,000 WEAPONS THAT ENTER MEXICO ANNUALLY.

>>LORENE: AND FROM THERE, THEY ARE DISTRIBUTED ALL OVER SOUTH AMERICA, LATIN AMERICA, THE CARIBBEAN, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>>MICHAEL: AND THIS IS ANOTHER FACT THAT YOU SHOULD KNOW, IS THAT AMERICAN WEAPONS HAVE INUNDATED LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN, LATIN AMERICAN AND CARIBBEAN COMPRISE 8% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION.

YET, BECAUSE OF ALL THESE WEAPONS THAT THEY HAVE IN THESE COUNTRIES, THEY COMMIT 33% OF THE HOMICIDES IN THE WORLD.

AND THESE COUNTRIES ARE JUST AWASH WITH WEAPONS AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO CONTROL HERE.

YOU KNOW, WE POINT THE FINGER AT MEXICO, THAT THEY'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH, WELL, WE'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH HERE.

>>LORENE: AND EVERY TIME THE NEW MEXICO LEGISLATURE PUTS IN A BILL FOR ASSAULT WEAPON BANS, THESE ARE WEAPONS OF WAR, THEY DO NOT BELONG IN A CIVILIAN POPULATION.

IT WOULD BE VERY EASY TO BAN THEM, JUST GIVE A PAYBACK, YOU HAND THEM IN AND WE'LL GIVE YOU MONEY FOR IT.

JUST GET THOSE DANGEROUS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION OUT OF THE POPULATION, THE CIVILIAN POPULATION.

BUT ALWAYS ONE PARTY SAYS YOU'RE TAKING OUR GUNS AWAY, WE HAVE RIGHTS TO HAVE THESE.

>>MICHAEL: WELL, THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU HAVE THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION THAT HAS A VERY STRONG LOBBY AND THEY GIVE THE REPUBLICANS A LOT OF MONEY FOR THEIR CAMPAIGNS.

AND AS A RESULT, THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, THEY DON'T WANT TO BAN ASSAULT RIFLES.

AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, THERE'S NO REASON FOR A CIVILIAN TO HAVE A MILITARY-GRADE WEAPON.

WE ALREADY SAW WHAT HAPPENED IN UVALDE, TEXAS, WHEN AN 18-YEAR-OLD WENT AND PURCHASED TWO AR-15S AND THEN KILLED ALL THOSE INNOCENT CHILDREN.

AND YOU KNOW, WHAT STATE OTHER THAN TEXAS SELLS WEAPONS TO CHILDREN THAT ARE 18 YEARS OF AGE.

>>LORENE: WE HAVE SO MUCH TO TALK ABOUT.

I NEED TO TALK ABOUT FENTANYL WITH YOU, BECAUSE 400 KILOS OF FENTANYL WERE SEIZED AT THE MEXICAN BORDER.

VERY LITTLE, AS YOU SAY, COMES IN FROM CANADA, ARE WE DOING ENOUGH?

PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THE ABILITY OF ADDICTION, IT'S HIGHLY ADDICTIVE AND OVERDOSES.

BUT WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM, YOU HAD SAID AT ONE POINT SOLVING THE FENTANYL PROBLEM WILL TAKE MORE THAN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SO PLEASE GIVE US SOME SUGGESTIONS FOR HOW WE CAN DO THIS BECAUSE EVERYONE NOW KNOWS SOMEONE WHOSE FAMILY MEMBER OVERDOSED OR WAS ADDICTED AND WENT DOWN A LONG SLIMY PATH OF CRIME BECAUSE OF THEIR ADDICTIONS.

>>MICHAEL: WELL, JUST SO YOUR VIEWERS KNOW, FENTANYL IS A PAINKILLER, IT HAS LEGITIMATE USES.

BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CARTELS IN MEXICO PRODUCE ILLEGAL FENTANYL AND THEN THEY TABLET IT TO MAKE IT APPEAR LIKE A LEGITIMATE DRUG.

TWO MILLIGRAMS OF FENTANYL CAN BE LETHAL TO A NORMAL HUMAN BEING.

SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO HERE IN THE UNITED STATES IS TO CREATE PUBLIC AWARENESS, YOU KNOW, MAKE SURE PARENTS, FAMILIES ARE AWARE OF WHAT FENTANYL IS, YOU KNOW, THE FORM IN WHICH IT'S DISTRIBUTED.

THEN WE ALSO HAVE TO WORK CLOSELY WITH, YOU KNOW, HEALTHCARE FACILITIES, WITH TREATMENT FACILITIES, MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS, IT HAS TO BE A COMMUNITY EFFORT.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS JUST WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT.

WE CAN SEIZE QUITE A BIT OF FENTANYL, BUT IT'S PRODUCED IN METAL TUBS.

THEY GET THE PRECURSOR CHEMICALS FROM CHINA, THEY PUT IT INTO METAL TUBS, AND THEN THEY MIX IT WITH A SHOVEL OR A STICK.

ONE OF THINGS THAT I'M A BIG PROPONENT OF IS WE NEED TO EDUCATE OUR KIDS AT A VERY EARLY AGE, AND THERE'S NO REASON WHY WE CAN'T INCORPORATE DRUG EDUCATION INTO OUR SCHOOL SYSTEMS.

>>LORENE: AND I'D LIKE TO BLESS NANCY REAGAN'S INTENTIONS, BUT "JUST SAY NO" DOESN'T ARM AN ADOLESCENT OR A CHILD IN AND WHY TO SAY NO OR WHAT THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO, YOU KNOW, SO IT'S A MATTER OF THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, PUBLIC SCHOOLS, AND COMMUNITY... >>MICHAEL: TREATMENT FACILITIES AND THEN WE ALSO NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB WITH WHAT WE CALL, I FORGET THE NAME, BUT TO DO DAMAGE CONTROL AND PROVIDE PEOPLE WITH TEST STRIPS TO MAKE SURE THAT IF THEY'RE USING HEROIN OR COCAINE THAT IT'S NOT LACED WITH FENTANYL.

IT'S CALLED HARM REDUCTION.

>>LORENE: THAT'S IT.

>>MICHAEL: SO ANYWAY, AND THEN ALSO NARCAN, WHICH CAN REVERSE OPIOID OVERDOSES, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH IT'S A SYNTHETIC OPIOID, IT CAN HELP A LOT OF PEOPLE DO THAT.

THE MAIN THING ALSO IS THAT A LOT OF THESE TREATMENT FACILITIES DETOX THE INDIVIDUALS, BUT THERE'S NO FOLLOW-UP.

THESE PEOPLE WILL GO BACK TO THE SAME NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE THEY CAME FROM, AND THEN THEY GET EVICTED WITHIN A WEEK.

>>LORENE: YEAH, IT'S VERY HARD, IT'S VERY CHALLENGING.

BUT I THINK THAT AS A STATE, WE TRY TO DO A LOT TO SUPPORT PEOPLE IN WITHDRAWAL AND REHAB, BUT IT'S A FIERCE BATTLE.

THE TEMPTATIONS ARE THERE, AND YOU'RE TIRED, ANGRY, LONELY, AND YOU JUST THINK, OH, I'D JUST LOVE TO FEEL GOOD ONE MORE TIME AND THEN THEY'RE BACK IN IT AGAIN.

FAMILIES SOMETIMES ABANDON THEIR OWN FAMILY MEMBERS BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN ROBBED, LIED TO, IT'S TOO MUCH.

>>MICHAEL: AND THE THING IS THAT WHEN PEOPLE USE, FOR EXAMPLE, FENTANYL, YOU'RE PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULETTE BECAUSE ABOUT SEVEN OUT OF THE TEN TABLETS THAT ARE DISTRIBUTED IN THIS COUNTRY ARE LETHAL.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU KNOW ONE CANNOT QUESTION THE CONSCIENCE OF A DRUG DEALER BECAUSE AFTER ALL THEY'RE DEALING DRUGS, BUT JUST TO HAVE SOME INTEGRITY TO DO YOUR OWN QUALITY CONTROL AND TO BE SURE THAT WHAT YOU'RE GETTING ISN'T 98% FENTANYL AND A LETHAL DOSE.

>>MICHAEL: YEAH, BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY'RE NOT IN THESE LABS, THESE SOPHISTICATED LABS, IT'S JUST A METAL TUB.

MOST OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE VERY LITTLE EDUCATION, IF THEY HAVE AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL EDUCATION, IT'S A LOT.

SO THE CHEMISTS, THEY'RE TRAINED BY OTHER CHEMISTS.

THEY START WORKING AS APPRENTICES, THEY LEARN THE PROCEDURE, BUT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO BASICALLY PROVIDE A LOW DOSAGE THAT'S NOT GOING TO KILL THE PEOPLE.

SO THAT'S A HORRENDOUS PROBLEM.

>>LORENE: WELL, I LOVE LOOKING AT THE PROBLEMS WITH YOU, BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I REALLY TREASURE, YOU PROVIDE SOME SOLUTIONS.

CAN YOU MAKE SOME SUGGESTIONS TO US AS A STATE AND AS FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES WHAT WE CAN DO TO HELP AMELIORATE THE DAMAGE THAT THESE DRUGS DO.

>>MICHAEL: WELL, I THINK THAT PARENTS NEED TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES, THEY NEED TO WATCH THEIR KIDS, THEY NEED TO ENSURE THAT THEY'RE NOT HANGING AROUND WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE USING DRUGS.

THEY NEED TO WATCH THEIR INTERNET CONNECTIONS AND WHAT HAVE YOU BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF KIDS THAT USE THE INTERNET AND THEY USE EMOJIS TO ORDER DRUGS, SO THAT'S A HUGE, HUGE PROBLEM.

BUT IF I WERE TO CRAFT A STRATEGY FOR NEW MEXICO, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TWO INTERSTATES, YOU HAVE I-40 EAST TO WEST, YOU HAVE I-25 NORTH TO SOUTH, I WOULD DIVIDE NEW MEXICO INTO FOUR QUADRANTS AND I WOULD PUT A MOBILE TRAINING TEAM IN EACH QUADRANT AND THEN MOBILE ENFORCEMENT TEAMS IN EACH QUADRANT.

HERE YOU HAVE ABOUT 147 LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AND I'M TALKING ABOUT FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL, MUNICIPAL, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, AND MOST OF THEM DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES, MOST OF THEM DON'T EVEN HAVE A DRUG UNIT.

AND THAT'S WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE MOBILE ENFORCEMENT TEAMS THAT CAN GO INTO SOCORRO, THAT CAN GO INTO THESE LITTLE AREAS, AND THEN MOBILE TRAINING TEAMS THAT CAN STRUCTURE THE TRAINING THAT THEY NEED.

THEY HAVE STATE POLICE ACADEMY HERE BUT THEY ONLY PROVIDE THE TRAINING THAT THEY WANT TO PROVIDE, SO THIS WAY WOULD BE HIGHLY STRUCTURED AND YOU WOULD PROVIDE RESOURCES.

THE OTHER THING THAT I WOULD CREATE HERE IS AN INTELLIGENCE CENTER WITH ANALYSTS THAT WOULD COLLATE ALL THE INFORMATION AND PUT IT OUT AS TARGETING PACKAGES.

>>LORENE: THANK YOU, MICHAEL VIGIL, I HOPE YOU'LL COME BACK SOON.

>>MICHAEL: OH, I WILL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, LORENE, IT SOUNDS GREAT.

>>LORENE: VERY IMPORTANT, YES.

AND I'M LORENE MILLS, I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT EDITION OF REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE'LL SEE YOU SOON.

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE HEALY FOUNDATION, TAOS, NM.

♪ MUSIC