>> Laura: DURING THE HERMIT'S PEAK/CALF CANYON FIRE, THE FOREST SERVICE CHIEF RANDY MOORE SHUT DOWN PRESCRIBED FIRE PROJECTS, CALLED FOR A REVIEW, AND ISSUED A NEW PROTOCOL FOR PRESCRIBED FIRE NATIONALLY.

DENNIS, WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE 2022 ON THE GROUND IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Carril: THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION, LAURA.

JUST LIKE I HAD MENTIONED IN THE PREVIOUS SEGMENT ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF CHANGE THAT CAME POST CERRO GRANDE, WE'RE GOING THROUGH SOMETHING SIMILAR, AND THIS PAUSE I THINK WAS IMPORTANT TO KIND OF COLLECT OUR THOUGHTS AND PUT DOWN ON PAPER WHAT SOME OF THESE THINGS WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT ARE.

WITHOUT GOING INTO EXTRAORDINARY DETAIL, THE THINGS THAT I'M TAKING AWAY IS WANTING A LOT MORE ENGAGEMENT FROM AGENCY ADMINISTRATORS AND LINE OFFICERS.

BEING MORE ENGAGED AND KNOWING MORE ABOUT THE PROJECTS, BEING ABLE TO SPEAK TO THEM, ASK QUESTIONS, DOCUMENT THOSE QUESTIONS THROUGH THE GO/NO GO PROCESSES THAT WE HAVE.

WE USED TO TALK ABOUT DROUGHT, BUT NOW WE'RE GOING TO FORMALLY TALK ABOUT DROUGHT AND FORMALLY DOCUMENT THAT CONVERSATION.

AND AS SHAUN SAID PREVIOUSLY, AS WELL, HAVING MANY MINDS AT THE TABLE TO HAVE A GOOD DISCUSSION AND SO WE'RE KEEPING EACH OTHER IN CHECK.

MORE CHECKS AND BALANCES TO HOW WE MOVE FORWARD WITH AUTHORIZATION.

NOW WHEN WE'RE MOVING THROUGH PRESCRIBED FIRE, SOME OTHER THINGS ARE ACKNOWLEDGING.

MORE RESOURCES THAT WILL NEED TO BE ON SCENE, WITH OUR CONTINGENCY RESOURCES BEING CLOSER.

NOT ON SCENE, BUT CLOSER, WITHIN 30 MINUTES RESPONSE TIME.

AND THEN ALSO THAT KIND OF BACK END OF THE PRESCRIBED FIRE, AS FAR AS THE PATROL PLAN, CRITICAL WEATHER, STEP-UP PLANS AND THINGS.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FOUR MONTH HOLD OVERS FROM PILE BURNS, THAT WE KNOW WE'VE GOT TO STICK WITH THIS A LOT MORE INTENSELY USING NEW TECHNOLOGY WITH INFRARED SYSTEMS AND THINGS SO WE CAN START CHECKING THINGS AS WE'RE MOVING INTO PRESCRIBED FIRE SEASON.

>> Laura: MICHIKO, GO AHEAD.

>> Martin: THANK YOU.

I WAS JUST THINKING THAT, DENNIS, YOU'RE JUST REALLY HIGHLIGHTING SOME OF THE ADDITIONAL WAYS THAT THE FOREST SERVICE HAS CHANGED, TO THE QUESTION THAT YOU WERE ASKING EARLIER LAURA.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE BIG THINGS THAT'S KIND OF EMBEDDED IN WHAT YOU JUST SAID WAS THAT THE FOREST SERVICE IS REALLY RECOGNIZING THE COMPLEXITY OF PRESCRIBED FIRE.

AND YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER AS A LITTLE GIRL THAT I WOULD BE OUT IN THE BACKYARD WITH MY FATHER AND WE WOULD DO PILE BURNINGS, AND YOU WOULDN'T THINK THAT THIS IS SOMETHING SO COMPLEX.

BUT AS SHAUN AND DENNIS WERE EARLIER TALKING ABOUT, HOW WE'RE FINDING WITH THE MEGA-DROUGHT THE RESIDUAL HEAT THAT JUST STAYS IN THE GROUND AND REIGNITES MONTHS AFTER, THAT'S COMPLEX, AND A COMPLEXITY THAT WE HAD NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

SO I THINK THAT THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF ANOTHER KIND OF LEARNING AND WAY THAT THE FOREST SERVICE HAS CHANGED.

IT'S REALLY JUST UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ALWAYS KNEW THAT WE HAD AN INHERENTLY DANGEROUS JOB, AND NOW WE ARE JUST RECOGNIZING EVEN MORE SO THE COMPLEXITY THAT'S EMBEDDED IN IT BECAUSE OF THE CHANGING CLIMATE AND BECAUSE OF THE MEGA-DROUGHT.

>> Sanchez: AND I WAS GOING TO SAY, TO ADD TO WHAT DENNIS SAID, THOSE SPECIFICS, THE OTHER PART THAT WE'RE DOING IS ENGAGING WITH THE PUBLIC, IS MAKING SURE THAT THEY'RE AT THE TABLE, AS WELL.

AND THEN THAT COMES IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT FORMS.

WE'RE GOING OUT AND HAVING FIELD TRIPS.

IF SOMEBODY WANTS TO ACTUALLY GO AND WALK A UNIT WITH US, WITH OUR FUEL SPECIALIST, WITH OUR BURN BOSSES, WE'RE DOING THAT.

LAST WEEK, WE HAD A TOWN HALL MEETING IN SANTA FE RIGHT AT THE AZTEC SPRINGS COMMUNITY.

WE'RE PLANNING TO DO A PRESCRIBED BURN DIRECTLY ADJACENT TO THAT COMMUNITY.

WE WANT TO HAVE ONE-ON-ONE CONVERSATIONS WITH THOSE NEIGHBORS, WITH THOSE LANDOWNERS THAT ARE LIKELY MOST DIRECTLY EFFECTED.

WE'RE WANTING TO MEET PEOPLE WHERE THEY'RE AT AND THE WAY THEY'RE WANTING TO DO THAT.

HAVING TOWN HALLS, HAVING ONE-ON-ONE CONVERSATIONS, MAKING SURE THAT ALL OF OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS AT THE COUNTY LEVEL, STATE LEVEL, AND NATIONAL LEVEL ARE UNDERSTANDING.

WE HAD A TOWN HALL TWO DAYS AGO IN REGINA THAT A LOT OF THE FEEDBACK WE GOT EVEN FROM SOME OF THE ELECTED OFFICIALS, LIKE THEIR STAFF MEMBERS, WAS, WOW, WE DIDN'T REALIZE ALL OF THE PREP WORK AND THE THOUGHT AND THE PREPARATION THAT GOES INTO CONDUCTING A PRESCRIBED BURN.

SO WANTING TO ENGAGE WITH THE COMMUNITIES THAT WE SERVE IN A VERY MEANINGFUL WAY, TO HEAR THEIR CONCERNS, TO MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT, IS THERE A BLIND SPOT THAT WE'RE NOT AWARE OF THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW BECAUSE THEY LIVE RIGHT THERE, THAT WE'RE LISTENING TO THEM AND ENGAGING IN THAT AND ADJUSTING COURSE.

>> Laura: SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT, BECAUSE I'VE LOOKED AT SOME OF THE OLD PRESCRIBED FIRE PLANS, THEY'RE LONG.

THERE'S LIKE A LOT OF PLANNING THAT GOES INTO THEM.

THEY'RE COMPLEX.

DOES THE FOREST SERVICE EMPOWER PEOPLE ON THE GROUND TO PUSH BACK IF CONDITIONS AREN'T RIGHT, OR IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG?

>> Carril: ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S NOT A -- THIS TALK OF PRESSURE THAT'S OUT THERE, I THINK IT'S CONVOLUTED IN SOME WAYS SOMETIMES.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT WE'RE UP AGAINST WITH EVERYTHING, BUT NEVER IN MY EXPERIENCE HAS THERE BEEN PRESSURE TO LIGHT A MATCH.

THE PRESSURE WE DO PUT ON EACH OTHER IS TO GET SOMETHING READY, AND THAT'S A MESSAGE THAT WE'VE SENT THROUGH OUR RANKS FROM THE ARCHAEOLOGIST OR BIOLOGIST TO THE BURN BOSS OR THE AGENCY ADMINISTRATOR, YOU NEED TO HAVE THE PROJECT READY.

GET THE COMPLIANCE WORK DONE, GET THE PREPARATION WORK DONE SO THAT YOU HAVE THE ADVANTAGE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A WINDOW WHEN IT COMES.

BUT NEVER PRESSURE TO SAY, IT'S TIME TO LIGHT THIS THIS SPRING.

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.

>> Martin: DENNIS, WOULDN'T YOU SAY THAT'S ONE OF THE CHANGES, TOO, THAT WE'VE EXPERIENCED, THAT NOW BEFORE YOU DO A PRESCRIBED BURN THAT'S A MULTI-DAY, EVERY SINGLE DAY FOLKS ARE EMPOWERED.

>> Carril: EMPOWERED, AND THEN WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, LIKE HAVING DISCUSSION NOT JUST WITH THE AGENCY ADMINISTRATOR, BUT THE FIRING AND HOLDING BOSSES, AND MAKING SURE AND DOCUMENTING THAT THIS PLAN THAT WE'RE ABOUT TO EMBARK ON IS BOUGHT IN BY EVERYBODY WHO'S INVOLVED.

I THINK THESE CONVERSATIONS THAT WE KEEP TOUCHING ON, AND THE MORE FORMAL AND DOCUMENTED CONVERSATIONS AND HAVING THE MINDS AT THE TABLE, ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

ONE COMMENT I DO WANT TO BRING UP, TOO, IS THE TIMING OF THIS TRAGEDY IS INTERESTING WITH THE WILDFIRE CRISIS STRATEGY, IN THAT ONE THING THAT I SEE THE AGENCY DOING, IT WOULD HAVE PROBABLY STILL WENT ON WITHOUT THIS, BUT WE'RE STARTING TO THINK ABOUT AND TREAT PRESCRIBED FIRE AS THE SAME CRISIS AS WE SEE WILDFIRES UNFOLDING.

AND I SEE THE LEVEL OF SUPPORT STARTING TO COME FROM THE AGENCY AND THE COORDINATION FOR RESOURCES, FUNDING, ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS.

IT'S COMING TOGETHER COINCIDENTLY WITH THE TIMING OF THIS STRATEGY.

BUT TO REALLY GIVE THE PLAN PRESCRIBED FIRE WORK WHERE IT'S IN OUR COURT TO PICK THE TIME AND PLACE AND CONDITIONS.

WE'RE STARTING TO GET THE ATTENTION WE NEED TO FOCUS MORE ON IT THE WAY WE NEED TO.

>> Laura: THE FOREST SERVICE IS NOT UNIQUE THIS WAY, BUT I'VE BEEN COVERING ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES FOR LIKE MORE THAN 20 YEARS, AND I SEE HOW SLOW AGENCIES LIKE THE FOREST SERVICE ARE TO CHANGE.

AND FROM AN OUTSIDER'S PERSPECTIVE, IT'S EASY FOR ME TO SAY, HOLY SMOKES, CONDITIONS AND LIFE BASICALLY ON THIS PLANET HAS CHANGED FASTER THAN SOME OF OUR AGENCIES HAVE.

DOES THE FOREST SERVICE HAVE THE CAPACITY AND THE POLITICAL WILL TO REALLY MAKE THESE CHANGES TO KEEP UP WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE FORESTS?

>> Sanchez: ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK LIKE DENNIS SAID, WE HAVE A VERY CLEAR PRIORITY ACROSS THE AGENCY TO FOCUS AND ADDRESS THE WILDFIRE CRISIS, THE HEALTH OF OUR FORESTS, AND FRANKLY, THE HEALTH OF OUR FORESTS GETS TO THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF OUR PUBLIC, RIGHT.

SO IT'S VERY CLEAR FROM A PRIORITY STANDPOINT OF THE AGENCY THAT CONGRESS HAS COME THROUGH AND APPROPRIATED.

I THINK THERE'S ABOUT $7 BILLION THAT HAS BEEN APPROPRIATED TO ADDRESS THIS CRISIS HEAD ON.

AND I'M NEW TO THE FOREST SERVICE.

SEVEN MONTHS HERE.

BUT WHAT I'VE SEEN -- AND SO MY TENURE HAS BEEN ALL CHANGE.

BUT I SEE A HUGE DESIRE.

THIS IS, LIKE DENNIS AND I WERE TALKING THIS MORNING, THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN HOPING FOR MY ENTIRE CAREER, WAS TO SEE THIS STRAIGHT FOCUS ON THIS PRIORITY, THE HEALTH OF OUR FORESTS, THE SAFETY OF OUR PUBLIC, AND THE RESOURCES TO GET IT DONE.

AND SO I CAN TELL YOU OUR TEAM HERE ON THE SANTA FE IS VERY EXCITED AND EMBRACING ALL OF THE CHANGE, AND RECOGNIZING THAT WE'RE IN THIS EVER CHANGING ENVIRONMENT.

AND SO WE CAN'T SIT BACK, WE HAVE TO BE CONTINUALLY LEARNING OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND MAKING THOSE EFFORTS.

AND TREATING OUR FORESTS THE WAY WE NEED TO TO ADDRESS THIS CRISIS.

>> Carril: REACTIVE VERSUS PROACTIVE.

WE ACKNOWLEDGE, AND WE HAVEN'T TOUCHED ON IT YET, BUT FIRE IS AN INEVITABLE PART OF OUR LANDSCAPE AND ECOSYSTEMS.

IT IS.

WHAT WE DEAL WITH ON THE SUPPRESSION SIDE AND IN THE WORST POSSIBLE CONDITIONS WHEN SOMETHING STARTS IN AN UNWANTED TIME AND PLACE IS REACTIVE.

AND WE STILL ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT, WILL HAVE TO DO THAT AND GIVE IT ATTENTION.

BUT THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCCESS ON SOME OF THOSE EVENTS AND THE WAY THEY'RE UNFOLDING, WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE VALUES IN INFRASTRUCTURES ENDANGERED OR LOST OR THREATENED -- OR MORE LOST, I GUESS.

BUT JUST THINKING ABOUT THIS ON THE PROACTIVE SIDE, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE GOING FOR, AND LIKE I DO.

THIS IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY, THIS WILDFIRE CRISIS STRATEGY.

WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH BUILDING TRUST AND BEING TRANSPARENT AND ENGAGING OUR PUBLIC, AND IT'S A GOOD THING.

IT'S FORCING US THAT DIRECTION, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO BE.

BUT TO BE ON THE PROACTIVE SIDE AND HAVING THE CHOICE, KNOWING FIRE IS PART OF THE SYSTEM, TO BE ABLE TO PICK THE TIME AND THE PLACE AND THE CONDITIONS AND THE RIGHT RESOURCES, WITH ALL THESE CHANGES THAT WE'RE GOING TO START INCORPORATING AND LEARN FROM FROM LAST YEAR, OUR ODDS ARE WAY BETTER.

WE TALK ABOUT 99.8, WHATEVER, POINT OF SUCCESS, AND IT'S NOT GETTING HUNG UP ON SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR.

WE HAVE TO GET HUNG UP ON THAT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE MINIMIZE THE CHANCE OF THAT EVER HAPPENING AGAIN.

WE CAN'T PROMISE THAT IT WON'T EVER HAPPEN AGAIN, THAT A FIRE WON'T ESCAPE, BUT THE ODDS IN DEFENDING OUR VALUES AT RISK, OUR COMMUNITIES, OUR ECOSYSTEMS, OUR WATERSHED, OUR TRIBAL LANDS, EVERYTHING, WE HAVE A MUCH BETTER CHANCE IF WE CAN PICK THE TIME AND PLACE TO REINTRODUCE FIRE VERSUS BEING AT THE MERCY.

IF CONDITIONS KEEP CHANGING AND GETTING MORE EXTREME, WE'RE NOT HAVING GREAT SUCCESS IN THESE SUPPRESSION EVENTS.

>> Laura: SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO TALK ABOUT A LITTLE BIT.

THERE WERE PEOPLE EVEN BEFORE HERMIT'S PEAK/CALF CANYON WHO WERE GOING TO OPPOSE PRESCRIBED FIRE PROJECTS.

LOOKING AT A PLACE LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SANTA FE WATERSHED, OR ANY NUMBER OF PACKED FORESTS IN NEW MEXICO, IF YOU COULDN'T USE PRESCRIBED FIRE, WHAT OTHER TOOLS ARE THERE?

>> Carril: SO THE INITIATION OF THAT PROJECT WAS BEFORE MY TIME, BUT THE PERSON WHO WAS GREATLY INVOLVED WITH IT WAS MY MENTOR, AND I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THERE WITH HIM, THE DISTRICT, AND ALL THE TREATMENTS THAT WENT ON TO BRING IT TO THE CONDITION IT'S IN NOW.

A LOT OF DISCUSSION WAS HAD ABOUT REMOVAL AND MECHANICAL WORK AND THIS TYPE OF THING.

IN ALL THAT I'VE LEARNED IN MY CAREER, WHAT YOU FIND IS THAT WATERSHED, THERE'S ONE ROAD IN THE BOTTOM, AND YOU'RE TALKING A 1200-FOOT CLIMB AT 80 PERCENT, 60 PERCENT SLOPE, UP TO THE RIDGELINE.

THERE'S NO ACCESS.

THE TINY ROAD THAT GOES UP THERE, THE CANYON ROAD, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO HAUL LOG TRUCKS DOWN THERE.

SO MECHANICAL REMOVAL IS NOT REALLY A FEASIBLE OPTION THERE.

BUT AS I'VE LEARNED OVER 20 YEARS, AND NOT JUST THE WATERSHED, BUT EVERYWHERE, IT'S JUST NOT ABOUT REMOVAL AND CUTTING.

YOU CREATE ACTIVITY FUEL WHEN YOU CUT, SOMETHING THAT'S MAYBE MORE VOLATILE FOR BURNING AFTER YOU MANIPULATE IT.

AND THEN WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE ECOLOGY AND WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE FIRE ECOLOGY OF OUR MOUNTAINS AND WHAT ROLE IT PLAYED.

AND WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF LANDSCAPES THAT WERE CONSIDERED FREQUENT FIRE FORESTS, WHERE FIRE WAS THE RECYCLER FOR THIS DEAD WOOD ACCUMULATION.

IT PRUNED THE LIVE TREES, IT KEPT THE LIVE TREE DENSITIES IN CHECK, AND IT PROMOTED MORE OPEN STANDS.

WE CAN'T REPLACE THAT WITH MECHANICAL WORK ALONE.

THAT'S WHAT I'VE LEARNED THROUGH MY CAREER, AND I THINK THE AGENCY IS ON BOARD WITH THAT AND UNDERSTANDING.

ALL TOOLS ARE ON THE TABLE WHEN IT COMES TO IMPLEMENTING THESE TREATMENTS, BUT WE WON'T BE SUCCESSFUL WITH THE WILDFIRE CRISIS STRATEGY IN DEFENSE OF OUR VALUES AT RISK AND THE THINGS THAT WE CARE ABOUT WITHOUT FIRE AS PART OF THE PLAN.

>> Laura: THANKS AGAIN.

WE WILL BE BACK IN 15 MINUTES FOR ONE FINAL TIME TO WRAP UP THIS CONVERSATION.