>>Secretary Kenney, welcome to New Mexico  in Focus.

Thanks for joining me today   >>Thank you, Laura.

It's a pleasure to be here.

Thanks.

>>So, the Air Force recently announced a pilot   project that they're getting ready to contract.

It's a water treatment plant.

As you understand it,   how does this pilot project tie in with  cleanup plans at Cannon Air Force Base?

>>Laura, that's a great question.

The pilot  project that I understand Cannon is undertaking   is a system that will prevent PFAS contaminated  wastewater groundwater from migrating off base   in terms of a larger cl delineation and cleanup of  the area the the Air Force hasn't been in contact   with us to talk about that however the new mexico  environment department is leading an effort there   okay so the initial testing that was done that  revealed that there was contamination from pfas   at cannon air force base and holloman air force  base seems like those tests were done back in 2017   four years ago what do we know right now about  where these plumes have migrated or moved so   again it's a great question that the time frame  by which we're trying to motivate the department   of defense to do something about this there's that  effort and then there's the effort that the state   of new mexico is independently taking so we've  been unsuccessful maybe up through the recent   announcement that they're going to address some of  the migration at canon but the state of new mexico   has gone back to the legislature sought  appropriations and has begun a study in the   area to both understand the delineate to know  where the plume is and then to figure out ways   to clean it up so we're in that process how much  has the state already spent or has been allocated   that new mexico taxpayers are having to pay for  this contamination from the u.s air force so   numbers that quickly come to mind we  have a one million dollar appropriation   to focus on this area to delineate both cannon  and holloman the pfas in those locations   as well as about about four million dollars with  respect to those particular counties to understand   how it's impacting drinking water public drinking  water systems and then to put money towards those   systems if they are impacted so all in all i  can easily count up about five million dollars   have gone into those particular areas as well  as statewide there's statewide efforts going on   we're also spending an inordinate amount of time  across all the department staff time as well   focusing on analyzing results communicating  results understanding and communicating risk   to communities so it's it's a it's a big endeavor  yeah so let's talk a little bit about that risk   why is the state concerned about these  particular toxic substances what do they   do what harm do they potentially cause  so pfas is one of those chemicals that   once it gets into the ground or groundwater  it's really hard to remove when it gets there   it continues to migrate in the groundwater and  then when it comes into contact with drinking   water sources typically drinking water sources  are not treating for that type of chemical   and therefore we ingest it we shower in that water  you know that's the water that comes to our houses   so when that happens the science around  pfas is that it is a suspected carcinogen   causes cancer it it gets involved in reproductive  issues it causes not only diabetes but some of the   chemicals cause diabetes they cause weight  gain high cholesterol things like that so   it's a it's a chemical that once in  the environment and moving into the   way we live our lives can cause some public  health issues that we're very concerned about   so i think it's fair to say that the air force  and the state of new mexico are not necessarily   cooperating on this cleanup can you characterize  the relationship that the air force in the state   have had since since regulators were  notified in 2018 about this contamination   um i think it's i think when you look back at the  path we took in the state of new mexico to hold   the defense department accountable we didn't set  out to litigate that we we wanted action quickly   when that wasn't available or that wasn't on  the table that's when we litigated because in   reality litigation based on the time frames  that were proposed seemed like the shortest   path forward the the the relationship we have with  our bases is actually quite positive they you know   the servicemen and women contribute a lot to the  state of new mexico and we value that obviously   um it's the notion that we will somehow wait to  protect new mexicans wait to protect our economy   that's the part that we have to be intolerant  about and that's why we're in a lawsuit so and   as i understand it the defense department filed  a lawsuit against new mexico when regulators   tried to compel the military to clean up recently  the biden administration filed saying that this   lawsuit was that the state had acted arbitrarily  and capriciously what's the status of that   lawsuit right now yeah so it might be helpful as  you point out to just to just acknowledge that the   first lawsuit was suing the state of new mexico  to prevent pfas cleanup at cannon air force base that lawsuit is continuing to move  through through the court system and   we stand firmly by we made the right decision that  pfas is a hazardous substance a hazardous waste it for the reasons we've talked about it  can affect people's public health therefore   we are going to continue to focus  on making sure that gets cleaned up i would hope that under the current federal  administration under all the movement by the u.s   environmental protection agency to acknowledge  the risk of pfas that that message gets to   the department of defense as well as the  department of justice and they understand that   new mexicans should not have to fight to clean up  contaminated groundwater and they are on the wrong   side of this issue so it seems to me that there's  sort of this this issue is like blowing up on all   different fronts and federal taxpayers you know  will be the ones to pay for any eventual cleanup   new mexicans are also paying for these testing  programs to see where the plume has migrated   we're also having to pay for a lawsuit defend  ourselves against the air force do you have   any sense of how much the legal side of this is  costing new mexico at this point it's again a   great question and between the investment of the  department of i'm sorry between the investment   of the attorney general the state of new mexico  the executive agencies in the state of new mexico   the potential harm to our economy through the  ag industry as well another sort of line item   in in the the long lists you you analyze  um i i don't have a number for you   i think that would be a great effort  for new mexico to put that together yeah the the the notion that we're at loggerheads  over what we all acknowledge is a toxic   pollutant that's we know why it was released  when it was released how it was released   it is merely a matter of getting to clean up  that we're fighting about that doesn't make sense   to any of us and i'm sure it doesn't make  sense to the feds at this point either   but we need to thaw that and they need to come  forward and do what's right by our state so we   recently testified testified before a committee  in congress asking for the federal government   to to help states like new mexico what do  we need what do states need from say the   environmental protection agency again i think  that's a great question and one of the reasons   i was very eager to testify before that full  committee of the senate environment public works   was to lay out our needs and our needs are are one  to have p5s treated as the toxic chemical it is   molecules of of pfas don't understand  whether they're labeled as a hazardous   substance or or not that's that's us putting  that on there on them um we need a comprehensive   way to tackle pfas and that's what i was  suggesting to congress that we list pfas as a   hazardous waste under federal law as intended  by congress and we do that immediately   so that we have a way to manage pfas from  the time it comes into the state to the time   it's disposed of and everything in between  it's managed in that way so we're not just   finding it haphazardly and then having to  deal with the public health impacts that way   we also need a drinking water standard as as you  know and many viewers probably know there is no   national drinking water standard for pfas states  are taking a leadership role in setting those   and when we move forward to address we as states  move forward to address pfas as a hazardous waste   or as a pollutant in drinking water the federal  government gets in our way and sues us that's   our experience here in new mexico so in one way  we're being innovative and entrepreneurial and   solving the problems and communities and then  we're roadblocked by by the feds so we need   federal leadership on these issues so the new  mexico congressional delegation the democratic   members of the congressional delegation have  been vocal about um supporting new mexico and   trying to get the air force to act on cleanup  and yet there there hasn't there hasn't been much   action out of that is there anything that congress  can do to be helping states like new mexico   i yes i think there's a number of things that  congress could be doing some of the things i   mentioned are listing pfas  as a hazardous waste and   setting a national drinking water standard  but those are executive agencies like epa   that would do it but congress can put them on a  timeline to get it done in addition um there are   the the national defense authorization act has  money in it for states to who are dealing with the   implications of pfas that money could be deployed  directly into the state of new mexico to help   offset the costs that you so eloquently pointed  out that new mexicans are are now paying for   with respect to litigation with respect to testing  sampling delineation and ultimately remediation   so we've known for decades that pfas are a  problem to workers through to public health   some governments like the european union have  moved forward with china regulated what do you   think the holdup has been in the united states in  terms of getting these toxic substances regulated   i you know as we think about these toxic  substances we apply typically really good   science in making decision making in making  decisions about what how to regulate them   our hair is on fire with pfas we cannot we have  to move quicker than we've ever moved before   and i was thinking about this analogy laura  when when covid came into uh existence   and changed our lives that was a viral agent  a biological agent that we all got behind   and worked diligently to protect public health  i think we need to move with that speed on pfas   and get out of the bureaucratic thinking and the  reasons to say no have to become reasons to say   yes and i think that is exactly what the federal  government needs to do in here but states need   to do it as well and they can't be hampered  in the process of doing that so science-based   but at the speed in which the that this problem  this necessitates so the epa has said that pfas   is a priority for the biden administration when  i've requested an interview with their experts   to talk about pfas plans to regulate studies  for for a greater number of the substances   they've told me that it's premature to grant  an interview and talk about any of this do you   think that pfos is a priority for the epa under  the bible administration i do i i think it is a   priority i think that in any transition especially  the last transition from the trump administration   to the biden administration there's a  significant amount of work to be done not only to   stop the train that was moving down the tracks but  then reverse course and i think sorting out some   of the bureaucracy and understanding how to move  forward comprehensively is what's going on now   i am optimistic based on my conversations with the  with the feds that they're going to lean in heavy   but again leaning in heavy versus leaning in now  are two different things and i every day we think   about the the people who are impacted by pfas in  new mexico from property values to you know their   their health we can't we can't wait so we will  continue to put as much pressure on the blind   administration as possible and we will continue  to help them act even if they're not sure they're   ready so p pass is a national problem like when  i look at the news i see all kinds of different   states and communities are dealing with this  problem of military contamination of local water   and various states and communities have tried  different strategies basically do you see um where   do you see states or communities being effective  and trying to compel the military to actually   do this cleanup yeah and i'm an avid reader of  everything pfas and an avid consumer of anything   related to the topic and what i see and what has  been said in other states is when the state along   with the congressional delegation along with its  citizens and environmental groups that combination   speaking together and speaking forcefully is what  sometimes can change the department of defense in   in making a site that's a lower priority a higher  priority um i think we've been gregarious in our   approach and we've had good support from everyone  i just mentioned but it's it's not enough we are   trying everything possible to move our litigation  to move the department of defense to move the feds   and and it is something that we if there's another  idea out there that we could do we will do it   yeah for me it seems very intimidating for states  to be squaring up against you know potentially the   the most powerful institution maybe in the world  like how do states effectively take on the u.s   military on this you know i as somebody who's been  a regulator specifically has done enforcement for   the feds before this role that i'm in now um  you you have to lay out a really good plan   and we have a really good plan that we're we're  we're implementing um but states can't be afraid   we are we're not only the the incubators of good  ideas for the federal government but we have to   hold the federal government accountable and we  did that a lot in the last administration and   i'm hoping in this one we will be more  locked up and i'm confident we will be   but in any relationship you have to know  your boundaries and and ours are not going to   be at the expense of waiting for federal  action we're going to keep pushing forward   um when i way back in in the early days when i  was with epa uh i was one of the first people to   sue the the bureau of the mint for chromium  emissions coming out of uh their their coin   facility in philadelphia and it was game changing  to the point that the secretary of treasury where   the u.s minis housed contacted the administrator  of epa and you know don't underestimate the power   of being 24 gregarious and wanting to  change the environment and the landscape   that's what we need and that's what we're doing  although i'm not 24 anymore well secretary   kennedy thank you so much for joining me on new  mexico infocus thank you it's been a pleasure