>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, SAYING THE QUIET PART OUT LOUD.

OUTRAGE IN ALBUQUERQUE AFTER AN OFFICER'S DETACHED BODY CAMERA CAPTURES A RACIST CONVERSATION JUST MOMENTS AFTER THE FATAL POLICE SHOOTING OF A 30-YEAR-OLD MAN.

AND -- >> Dr. Lane: YOU HAVE LAND-BASED PEOPLE LIVING IN THIS REGION WITH GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS OF KNOWLEDGE PASSED DOWN, AND THEY'RE NO LONGER EXPERTS.

>> Lou: OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS EXPLORES THE COLONIAL ROOTS OF WATER MANAGEMENT IN NEW MEXICO WITH DR. K. MARIA LANE, WHO HAS WRITTEN A BOOK ON THE SUBJECT.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK, I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DiVIZIO.

TONIGHT, WE START WITH OUR ATTENTION ON A CONVERSATION BETWEEN A GROUP OF POLICE OFFICERS AND POSSIBLY ONE OF THEIR ATTORNEYS JUST MOMENTS AFTER ONE OF THEM SHOT AND KILLED A MAN WHO HAD GRABBED AND FIRED ONE OF THEIR GUNS.

WE'LL PLAY YOU SOME OF THOSE SOUND BITES LOADED WITH RACIAL SLURS AND VIOLENT LANGUAGE ALL CAPTURED UNKNOWINGLY ON A BODY CAMERA.

THIS ALL HAPPENED ON APRIL 11th OF THIS YEAR.

THAT'S WHEN POLICE SHOT AND KILLED 30-YEAR-OLD MARK BENAVIDEZ OUTSIDE OF A WALMART IN THE NORTHEAST PART OF THE CITY.

THE DEPARTMENT HASN'T RELEASED THE NAMES OF THE TWO DETECTIVES WHO FIRED THEIR WEAPONS, SAYING THEIR IDENTITIES NEED TO KEPT UNDER WRAPS BECAUSE THEY WORK UNDERCOVER IN APD'S GANG UNIT.

NOW, SHORTLY AFTER THE SHOOTING, BODY CAMERA VIDEO RECORDS THE TWO OFFICERS SITTING IN A POLICE VEHICLE AS OTHERS WALK BACK AND FORTH TO THE CAR TALKING THROUGH AN OPEN WINDOW.

THE FOLLOWING IS A SNIPPET OF THAT NEARLY 40-MINUTE CONVERSATION.

ALL OF WHICH CAN BE HEARD ON ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL'S YOUTUBE PAGE.

JUST A WARNING, THIS RECORDING INCLUDES LANGUAGE THAT'S NOT APPROPRIATE FOR YOUNGER AUDIENCES.

>> Officer: YOU MISSED IT, HUH?

YOU MISSED THIS [ UNINTELLIGIBLE ].

>> Officer: OF COURSE.

>> Officer: YOU KNOW IT'S NOT EVERY DAY YOU GET TO SHOOT A GUY IN THE [ EXPLETIVE ].

>> Officer: I LIKE VIOLENT ENCOUNTERS WITH VIOLENT PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHY I BECAME A COP.

I DIDN'T COME TO [ EXPLETIVE ] HELP OLD LADIES ACROSS THE [ EXPLETIVE ] ROAD.

I WANT TO TAKE ACTUAL [ EXPLETIVE ] THAT ARE ACTUALLY DOING STUFF OFF THE STREETS.

AND IF THAT MEANS YOU SHOOT SOME OF THEM, SO BE IT.

>> Lou: AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATION HAS BEGUN AT APD TO DETERMINE WHETHER THE OFFICERS ON THAT RECORDING VIOLATED ANY POLICIES.

SHAUN WILLOUGHBY, PRESIDENT OF THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION, TOLD THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL THAT THE COMMENTS WERE MADE QUOTE, "IN JEST" AS THEY QUOTE, "DECOMPRESSED" END QUOTE, FROM A STRESSFUL SITUATION.

REGARDLESS, THE PRIVATE CONVERSATION ECHOES THE U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S INITIAL CONCERNS ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT TEN YEARS AGO.

ONE MARKED BY, QUOTE, "A CULTURE OF AGGRESSION," END QUOTE.

DANIEL WILLIAMS OF THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO SAT DOWN WITH EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR TO CONSIDER THE WEIGHT OF THOSE RECORDED WORDS AND TO DISCUSS HOW APD HAS CHANGED SINCE THE DOJ REFORM PROCESS FIRST BEGAN IN 2014.

>> Jeff: DANIEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME AND WELCOME BACK TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Williams: OF COURSE, ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>> Jeff: SO, WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL REACTION TO HEARING THIS CONVERSATION AMONG APD OFFICERS THAT THE AUDIENCE JUST HEARD?

AND DEEPER THAN THAT, WHAT KINDS OF THINGS DID IT BRING UP FOR YOU AS YOU HAD A CHANCE TO THINK ABOUT IT A BIT MORE?

>> Williams: YOU KNOW, I THINK MY FIRST REACTION, JEFF, WAS THAT IT WAS SHOCKING, BUT NOT SURPRISING.

I THINK HEARING THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT THESE OFFICERS ARE SAYING PUT SO BALDLY, WE'RE NOT USED TO HEARING THAT.

BUT I THINK FOR FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN PAYING CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE WAY POLICE REFORM HAS HAPPENED IN ALBUQUERQUE, WHO CARE DEEPLY ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY, COMMUNITY SAFETY, IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT THESE ATTITUDES ARE PERVASIVE IN APD AND REALLY PERVASIVE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

I THINK, AS I SORT OF SAT WITH THIS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, IT HAS REALLY REMINDED ME OF THE ROLE THAT POLICE PLAY IN OUR SORT OF PUBLIC SAFETY, QUOTE-UNQUOTE UNIVERSE, AND THE RELIANCE WE PUT ON THEM TO DO WHAT WE HEARD THE OFFICERS SAY IN THE FOOTAGE, HE DIDN'T BECOME A COP TO DO.

SO, I DIDN'T BECOME A COP TO HELP OLD LADIES ACROSS THE STREET, YET WE DO RELY ON POLICE OFFICERS IN SO MANY CASES TO BE MORE THAN POLICE OFFICERS.

AND THAT'S PRETTY DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC.

>> Jeff: YEAH, I WANT TO ASK TOO, AND I THINK THE ANSWER IS PROBABLY YES, BUT IF YOU DON'T MIND UNPACKING A LITTLE BIT, DID THE CONVERSATION THAT YOU HEARD FEEL FAMILIAR TO YOU IN THE CONTEXT OF YOUR WORK ON POLICE VIOLENCE AND POLICE MISCONDUCT?

>> Williams: YEAH, IT DID.

YOU KNOW, I THINK WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE SYSTEMIC CULTURAL ISSUES AT APD.

AND MAYBE WE'LL TALK MORE TODAY ABOUT THE CONSENT DECREE AND THAT PROCESS, BUT I WENT BACK AND READ THE DOJ FINDINGS LETTER THAT WAS ISSUED AT THIS POINT OVER TEN YEARS AGO.

>> Jeff: APRIL OF 2014.

>> Williams: APRIL OF 2014.

THAT WAS THE CULMINATION OF THIS BIG INVESTIGATION AND THAT LED TO WHAT IS NOW THE CONSENT DECREE.

AND IT FELT LIKE WHEN THEY TALKED ABOUT THE CULTURE AT APD IN VERY STRONG LANGUAGE, IT FELT LIKE THEY COULD HAVE BEEN DESCRIBING THIS CONVERSATION.

TALKING ABOUT A CULTURE OF AGGRESSION.

TALKING ABOUT A CULTURE THAT VALORIZES VIOLENCE.

WE HEARD HIM SAY I LIKE VIOLENT ENCOUNTERS WITH VIOLENT PEOPLE.

TALKING ABOUT DISMISSING COMMUNITY CONCERNS.

ALL OF THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT DOJ CALLED OUT ABOUT APD OVER A DECADE AGO.

ALL OF THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE HEARD PUT REALLY BALDLY BY AN OFFICER THAT DIDN'T THINK ANYBODY WOULD HEAR WHAT HE SAID.

>> Jeff: YEAH, IT'S SUCH A QUIET-PART-OUT-LOUD SORT OF MOMENT.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT PHRASE POLICE CULTURE A LITTLE BIT, AND IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CONSENT DECREE, WHICH YOU MENTIONED.

THE REASON THAT THE 1994 CRIME BILL INCLUDES A PROVISION THAT ALLOWS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO DO THESE BIG, SWEEPING CIVIL INVESTIGATIONS OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND THEN HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE IN COURT TO MAKE CHANGES WAS TO IMPACT WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REFERS TO AS POLICE CULTURE, RIGHT?

WHAT THEY HAD BEFORE WAS LIKE SERPICO-ERA NYPD WHERE THEY COULD COME IN INDICT A FEW COPS, BUT IT DIDN'T REALLY DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE THIS BROADER CULTURE, RIGHT?

SO IT IS THAT CULTURE, THAT PHRASE POLICE CULTURE WAS ON EVERYBODY'S LIPS IN THIS TOWN IN THE RUN-UP TO THE FINDINGS LETTER YOU JUST MENTIONED.

WHAT DOES POLICE CULTURE MEAN INTERNALLY TO A DEPARTMENT LIKE APD OR ANY OTHER?

AND ALSO TO THE COMMUNITIES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE POLICED, WHAT'S THE PHRASE MEAN?

>> Williams: YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

CULTURE IS AT THE HEART OF ANY KIND OF POLICE REFORM WORK.

I THINK KIND OF NO MATTER WHAT SORT OF WORK WE DO WE'RE AWARE THAT THERE'S THE THINGS THAT OUR EMPLOYEE HANDBOOK SAYS THAT WE DO AND THE WAY THINGS WORK IN OUR OFFICE, AND THEN THERE'S THE WAY THINGS ACTUALLY WORK IN OUR OFFICE.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT POLICE CULTURE, IT'S THE WAY THINGS ACTUALLY WORK IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

IT'S THE IMPLICIT, AND AS WE HEARD IN THIS VIDEO, SOMETIMES EXPLICIT VALUES THAT ARE COMMUNICATED FROM OFFICER TO OFFICER.

IT'S THE ATTITUDE AND APPROACH TO POLICING THAT OFFICERS TAKE.

AND IT'S THE WAY THAT OFFICERS POSITION THEMSELVES RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER AND RELATIVE TO THE COMMUNITY.

>> Jeff: THAT IS MAYBE THE BEST EXPLANATION I'VE EVER HEARD FOR WHAT POLICE CULTURE IS OR SUPPOSED TO BE.

SO, WHEN THE FINDINGS LETTER CAME OUT AND IT BECAME CLEAR THERE WAS GOING TO BE THIS BIG REFORM PROJECT, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE COMMUNITY DESERVED, OR EVEN EXPECTED IN TERMS OF THE WAY THE CULTURE WOULD CHANGE?

>> Williams: YEAH, I THINK THERE'S -- THERE HAS BEEN A HOPE THAT THE CONSENT DECREE WAS GOING TO BE THE SORT OF MAGIC WAND THAT WAS GOING TO FIX POLICING IN ALBUQUERQUE.

AND I THINK THERE WAS SOME EXPECTATION OF THAT IN SOME PLACES.

AND I THINK WE PRETTY IMMEDIATELY SAW THAT WASN'T WHAT IT WAS GOING TO BE.

BUT I THINK WHAT THE COMMUNITY DESERVED WAS A SET OF COMMITMENTS BY THE CITY TO REALLY TRANSFORM, FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, THE WAY THAT APD DOES POLICING.

AND FOR A REAL COMMITMENT THAT THOSE CHANGES WOULD NOT JUST BE CHANGES ON PAPER, WOULD NOT BE SUPERFICIAL, AND WOULD ACTUALLY RESULT IN BETTER OUTCOMES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPOSED TO THE POLICE IN OUR COMMUNITY.

AND I THINK TEN YEARS ON, WE'VE SEEN THAT IS A MIXED BAG IN TERMS OF WHETHER OR NOT WE ACTUALLY GOT WHAT WE DESERVED.

>> Jeff: I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO MENTION TOO IN THIS CONTEXT THAT IN ADDITION TO THE CULTURE OF AGGRESSION THAT YOU MENTIONED FROM THE FINDINGS LETTER, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ALSO FOUND A CULTURE OF LEADERSHIP THAT NOT ONLY LOOKED THE OTHER WAY, BUT FRANKLY, ENCOURAGED THIS SORT OF BEHAVIOR.

DO YOU THINK THE COMMUNITY EXPECTED MORE ACCOUNTABILITY, INTERNAL ACCOUNTABILITY AS WELL?

>> Williams: ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THAT'S A HUGE KEY POINT ABOUT CULTURE AT APD AND A PART ABOUT THE CONSENT DECREE IS THAT THEY FOUND NOT ONLY THAT THIS CULTURE EXISTED, BUT THAT IT WAS PROPAGATED BY THE CHOICES THAT LEADERSHIP WAS MAKING.

THAT THERE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT ACCOUNTABILITY, THAT THERE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT -- THAT CULTURE WAS INCULCATED IN TRAINING AND WAS JUST CARRIED ON THROUGH THE WAY THAT LEADERSHIP APPROACHED THAT.

AND SO I THINK CERTAINLY THE PUBLIC HAD A RIGHT TO EXPECT AND DESERVE THAT, AS A RESULT OF THE CONSENT DECREE REFORMS, WE WOULD SEE A CHANGE IN APD'S WILLINGNESS TO HOLD ITSELF AND ITS OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

I WANT TO SHIFT GEARS JUST A LITTLE BIT HERE AND ASK FOR YOUR RESPONSE TO A COMMENT ABOUT THIS RECORDING FROM SHAUN WILLOUGHBY, WHO IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION.

I'M QUOTING NOW, "THESE GUYS WERE JOKING AROUND.

THEY WERE DECOMPRESSING, THEY WERE SAYING INAPPROPRIATE STUFF, LIKE A LOT OF US DO WITH OUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY WHEN WE'RE NOT IN PUBLIC," END QUOTE.

DANIEL, DO YOU TALK LIKE THIS WITH YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY WHEN YOU'RE NOT IN PUBLIC?

>> Williams: I DON'T.

AND I DON'T KNOW ANYONE, EVEN FOLKS WHO I KNOW WHO HAVE REALLY STRESSFUL JOBS WHO DECOMPRESS FROM THEIR JOBS AS EMERGENCY MEDICAL PROVIDERS, OR AS HOSPICE CAREGIVERS, OR WHATEVER, WHO DECOMPRESS BY EXPRESSING NOT JUST USING RACIAL SLURS, BUT EXPRESSING RACIAL SENTIMENTS.

>> Jeff: STRAIGHT-UP RACISM.

>> Williams: STRAIGHT-UP RACISM.

IT'S NOT JUST THE HORRIFIC WORD WAS USED, BUT IT WAS USED IN THE CONTEXT OF VERY RACIST SENTIMENTS ABOUT INTERRACIAL DATING.

I DON'T KNOW FOLKS WHO DECOMPRESS BY VALORIZING VIOLENCE.

THAT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE.

THE FIRST THING IT MADE ME THINK OF WHEN I READ THAT COMMENT FROM SHAUN WILLOUGHBY WAS, FRANKLY, OF MARK FUHRMAN WHO GOT FAMOUS DURING THE O.J.

SIMPSON CASE WHO SUED LAPD FOR SAYING THE STRESS OF HIS JOB HAD MADE HIM RACIST.

SO THIS IS A CANARD THAT WE'VE SEEN RACIST COPS USE FOR DECADES NOW THAT THEIR JOBS ARE SO STRESSFUL THEY HAVE TO BE RACIST.

AND IT WASN'T CONVINCING IN THE CASE OF MARK FUHRMAN, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S CONVINCING HERE.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO ASK ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT THE POLICE UNION.

BECAUSE OF THE CONSENT DECREE PROCESS, THEY MAY VERY WELL NOT HAVE THE SORT OF POLICYMAKING OR PROTECTING-OFFICERS-JOBS POWERS THAT THEY HAD IN YEAR'S PAST.

I WONDER FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE WHAT SORT OF INFLUENCE DOES THAT PARTICULAR POLICE UNION STILL HAVE?

>> Williams: I THINK ONE PLACE WHERE I'VE SEEN THE POLICE UNION BE VERY INFLUENTIAL AND REALLY VOCAL IS IN PROMOTING THIS NARRATIVE THAT THE COMMUNITY SAFETY PROBLEMS THAT ALBUQUERQUE HAS, THAT ARE REAL, ARE THE FAULTS OF THE CONSENT DECREE.

I REMEMBER A COUPLE YEARS AGO WHEN THE POLICE UNION WAS PUTTING UP BILLBOARDS THAT SAID CRIME MATTERS MORE.

AND OF COURSE THIS WAS DURING THE SAME TIME AS SURGE IN BLACK LIVES MATTER ACTIVISM, AND I THINK THE JUXTAPOSITION OF THOSE PHRASES WAS QUITE TELLING.

I THINK WE HEAR THIS NARRATIVE, I HEAR IT ALL THE TIME IN MY WORK, THAT THE REASON PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING CRIME IN ALBUQUERQUE IS BECAUSE OFFICERS HANDS ARE TIED BY THE EXPECTATION THAT THEY NOT ENGAGE IN A PATTERN AND PRACTICE OF RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.

AND THAT I THINK IS A PRETTY DAMAGING NARRATIVE, AND IT'S A PRETTY UNTRUE NARRATIVE.

CHIEF MEDINA HAS CALLED THE CONSENT DECREE THE BEST THING THAT HAPPENED TO APD.

>> Jeff: YEAH, AND AS A GOOD CIVIL RIGHTS LAWYER FRIEND OF MINE LIKES TO SAY, NO, GUYS IT'S NOT THAT YOU CAN'T DO YOUR JOBS ANYMORE, IT'S JUST THAT WE WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION WHEN YOU DO THEM.

>> Williams: WHICH DOES NOT FEEL LIKE AN OUTRAGEOUS EXPECTATION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE PAID PUBLIC SALARIES AND WHO ARE GRANTED EXTRAORDINARY POWER TO -- THEY CARRY GUNS AND HAVE AUTHORIZATION TO USE THEM, THEY NEED TO HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY WHEN THEY DO SO.

>> Jeff: YEAH.

LET'S EXPLORE THE CONNECTION BETWEEN POLICING AND THIS BROADER CONVERSATION ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY THAT YOU MENTIONED.

SOME OF THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSALS THAT, OF COURSE, FAILED DURING THE SPECIAL LEGISLATIVE SESSION LAST MONTH WOULD HAVE CREATED MORE CONTACT BETWEEN POLICE OFFICERS AND RESIDENTS.

NOT TO MENTION MORE CONTACT FROM OTHER ELEMENTS OF THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM.

HOW SHOULD RESIDENTS, ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD THESE RECORDINGS NOW, THINK ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF PROPOSALS THAT WOULD CREATE MORE CONTACT?

>> Williams: I THINK, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY FOR ALL OF MY LIFE AND LONGER IN THIS COUNTRY WE HAVE HAD THIS ATTITUDE WHERE WHEN WE PERCEIVE SOMETHING IS A PROBLEM ONE OF OUR FIRST INSTINCTS IS TO TRY AND MAKE A CRIME, OR TRY AND MAKE IT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE SOLVED BY THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM.

AND OFTEN WHAT THAT MEANS IS CALLING ON COPS AS THE FIRST PEOPLE TO INTERACT WITH THAT PEOPLE.

AND I THINK WHAT WE HAVE SEEN THROUGH OUR EXPERIENCE, AND WHAT THIS VIDEO I THINK PUTS IN REALLY SHARP RELIEF FOR US IS THAT IS NOT ALWAYS OR USUALLY THE CORRECT APPROACH TO MANY OF THE THINGS WE FACE AS A SOCIETY.

I THINK ONE THING THAT THIS SORT OF DRUMBEAT WE'VE HEARD FROM THE GOVERNOR, AND IN SOME LOCAL GOVERNMENT CONTEXTS AS WELL, IS THAT THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM CAN BE THE PLACE THAT WE CAN -- THE WAY WE CAN GET PEOPLE WHO NEED SERVICES ACCESS TO THOSE SERVICES.

BUT WHAT WE HEAR FROM THE OFFICER IS HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO THAT.

>> Jeff: TOTALLY.

>> Williams: I DIDN'T BECOME A COP TO HELP OLD LADIES CROSS THE STREET.

IT SEEMS PRETTY SIMILAR TO I DIDN'T BECOME A COP TO HELP AN UNHOUSED PERSON GET ACCESS TO SERVICES.

AND SO I THINK WHAT THIS SHOULD MAKE US VERY WARY OF IS OF THESE PROPOSALS THAT PURPORT TO SOLVE ISSUES LIKE HOMELESSNESS, LIKE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH PROBLEMS, LIKE POVERTY, BY BRINGING IN THE CRIMINAL LEGAL SYSTEM AND FURTHER ENTRAPPING PEOPLE WHO EXPERIENCE THOSE PROBLEMS IN THIS PROCESS OF POLICE, JAILS, COURTS AND PRISONS.

>> Jeff: WE'VE GOT A MINUTE OR TWO LEFT.

I JUST WANT TO MENTION THAT I DID ASK APD A SERIES OF QUESTIONS AS I WAS PREPARING THIS WEEK'S SHOW.

AS OF THE WEDNESDAY THAT WE'RE SITTING HERE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, I DIDN'T GET ANY ANSWERS FROM THEM.

YOU KNOW, I ASKED ALL THE STAFF YOU WOULD EXPECT A JOURNALIST TO ASK.

DO THOSE GUYS STILL HAVE THEIR JOBS, WHEN DID CHIEF MEDINA KNOW ABOUT THIS RECORDING.

I DIDN'T GET ANY ANSWERS.

SO IN THE ABSENCE OF THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE BEING WILLING TO COURSE CORRECT, AND EVEN BEYOND THE POSSIBILITY OF JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INTERVENTION SOLVING SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT LED TO US HEARING A RECORDING LIKE THIS, WHAT ARE WE MISSING HERE?

IS THERE A ROLE FOR THE LEGISLATURE?

IS THIS BEYOND GOVERNMENT?

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BIGGER SOLUTIONS THAT WE NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT THAT AREN'T PART OF THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT COMMUNITY SAFETY?

>> Williams: I THINK THE BIGGEST MISSING PIECE, AND THIS IS DIRECTLY TIED TO WHAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT, IS TO REALLY RE-THINK OUR PERCEPTION OF WHAT MAKES US SAFE IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND AS WE'RE THINKING OF COMMUNITY SAFETY, TO THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE HOUSING AS AN INVESTMENT IN COMMUNITY SAFETY.

TO THINK ABOUT INVESTMENTS IN BEHAVIORAL HEALTH AS AN INVESTMENT IN COMMUNITY SAFETY.

AND TO REFRAME OUR PERCEPTION OF WHAT KEEPS US SAFE, AWAY FROM COPS AND PRISONS, AND TOWARDS CARE FOR OUR COMMUNITY.

I THINK WHEN WE DO THAT WE CAN REALLY MITIGATE A LOT OF THE HARMS THAT THIS BRINGS TO MIND, AND WE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE SOME PROGRESS TOWARD MAKING OUR COMMUNITIES SAFE.

>> Jeff: A PHILOSOPHICAL SHIFT FIRST, AND THEN THE POLICY DISCUSSION THEREAFTER.

>> Williams: THAT'S RIGHT.

WE CAN'T GET THESE POLICIES DONE IF WE'RE STILL THINKING THE WAY WE'VE BEEN THINKING SINCE THE '60s.

>> Jeff: DANIEL WILLIAMS, POLICING POLICY ADVOCATE FOR THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

>> Williams: ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>> Lou: NOW, STAYING WITH THAT CONVERSATION CAUGHT ON ALBUQUERQUE POLICE BODY CAMERA, THE COALITION TO STOP VIOLENCE AGAINST NATIVE WOMEN CONDEMNED WHAT'S HEARD IN THE RECORDING.

SAYING THEY WERE QUOTE, "OUTRAGED AND APPALLED BY THE RECENT REVELATIONS OF DEEPLY RACIST AND DEHUMANIZING LANGUAGE," END QUOTE.

NOW, JEFF SPEAKS WITH TIFFANY JIRON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE COALITION ABOUT THE DECADES OF DIFFICULTIES INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES HAVE FACED WHEN TURNING TO THE POLICE FOR HELP.

AND HOW THIS NEWLY REVEALED RECORDING FURTHER HARMS THAT RELATIONSHIP.

BUT FIRST, AGAIN, A WARNING.

THE FOLLOWING CLIP INCLUDES LANGUAGE NOT APPROPRIATE FOR YOUNGER AUDIENCES.

>> Officer: GOTTA GET SAVAGE IN HIS LIFE.

WHAT'S GOING ON OVER THERE NOW, [ EXPLETIVE ] TALKING ABOUT GETTING WITH SAVAGES.

THIS IS GETTING OUT OF CONTROL.

>> Officer: MY ONLY CONCERN COMING OUT OF HERE WAS THAT HE WAS BLACK.

LITERALLY.

JUST BECAUSE OF THE OPTICS OF IT.

>> Officer: OH, I KNOW.

ESPECIALLY RIGHT NOW.

>> Officer: YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IF IT WASN'T THAT [ EXPLETIVE ] HONKY OUT HERE SHOOTING AT PEOPLE WITH HIS WEIRD-ASS ACCENT.

THEY NEVER TURNED MY [ EXPLETIVE ] CAMERA OFF.

>> Jeff: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, TIFFANY, AND WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Jiron: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: I'D LIKE TO BEGIN WITH THOSE COUPLE OF AUDIO CLIPS THAT OUR AUDIENCE JUST HEARD.

WHAT WAS YOUR INITIAL REACTION TO THOSE WHEN YOU HEARD THEM?

>> Jiron: WHEN I FIRST HEARD THESE AUDIO CLIPS MADE BY APD OFFICERS AND THE TERM SAVAGE AND YOU KNOW JUST THE WAY THEY TALK ABOUT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE HERE IN NEW MEXICO, IT REALLY UPSETS ME.

IT'S VERY DEHUMANIZING TO LABEL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS AS SAVAGES.

WE KNOW THAT SAVAGE MEANS THAT THEY'RE LESS THAN, ALMOST ANIMAL-LIKE.

IT REALLY DOES AFFECT ME AS AN INDIGENOUS WOMAN WHO WORKS FOR THE COALITION TO STOP VIOLENCE AGAINST NATIVE WOMEN.

AND ALSO AS A SOCIAL WORKER.

IT'S REALLY DISHEARTENING.

IT REALLY MAKES ME REFLECT ON HOW FAMILIES MUST FEEL WHEN A MISSING LOVED ONE OR A MURDERED LOVED ONE IS FOUND AND THERE'S NO KIND OF REMORSE FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT WHEN THERE'S THESE KIND OF REMARKS.

IT'S DISGRACEFUL.

AND I'M SORRY, LIKE SOMETIMES I CAN GET VERY EMOTIONAL THINKING ABOUT THE WAY THAT WE'RE THOUGHT OF.

IT'S JUST NOT RIGHT.

AND IT'S VERY INHUMANE TO BE LABELED AND CALLED A TERM SUCH AS SAVAGE AND FELT LESS THAN.

>> Jeff: SOME OF THE AUDIO THAT WE DIDN'T PLAY FOR VIEWERS WAS A RACIST EXCHANGE AMONG THESE COPS THAT CENTERED AROUND THE PUEBLO OF ISLETA, WHICH IS WHERE YOU'RE FROM.

DID ANY ADDITIONAL FEELINGS OR CONNECTIONS COME UP FOR YOU AS YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THESE CONVERSATIONS IN THAT CONTEXT?

>> Jiron: YES.

I AM FROM THE PUEBLO OF ISLETA.

I WAS BORN AND RAISED THERE.

STILL RESIDE IN THE RESERVATION.

AND AS AN ACTIVE COMMUNITY MEMBER, IT'S REALLY UPSETTING TO HEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS HAVE NO RESPECT FOR MY COMMUNITY, HAVE NO RESPECT FOR OUR TRADITIONAL VALUES, OUR CULTURAL VALUES, AND TO SAY THINGS THAT ARE VERY UNTRUE.

YOU KNOW, A LOT OF OUR COMMUNITIES, OUR TRIBAL COMMUNITIES NOT JUST ACROSS NEW MEXICO, BUT ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, TURTLE ISLAND, REALLY DO NOT HAVE ADEQUATE HOUSING.

WE LACK HOUSING.

HOUSING IS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE ACROSS TRIBAL COMMUNITIES.

AND TO HEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S FREE LAND OR FREE HOMES, IT'S LIKE WHERE ARE THEY?

BECAUSE I KNOW MANY OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS STRUGGLE AND ARE ON THE WAITING LIST THROUGH SOME OF OUR HOUSING DEPARTMENT INITIATIVES THAT THEY'RE ON THE WAITING LIST FOR OVER 11, SOMETIMES 15, YEARS AND CANNOT RECEIVE ADEQUATE HOUSING.

SO, THAT STATEMENT IS JUST LIKE VERY FALSE.

IT'S DISHEARTENING TO HEAR THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THESE TYPES OF THINGS THAT ARE VERY UNTRUE, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE KNOW THAT THERE'S A HOUSING ISSUE AND A HOUSING GAP.

AND THIS LEADS TO A LOT OF MISSING AND MURDERED INDIGENOUS PEOPLES, SEX TRAFFICKING, AND DOMESTIC AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

>> Jeff: TIFFANY, YOU ARE THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE COALITION TO STOP VIOLENCE AGAINST NATIVE WOMEN.

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE WORK YOUR ORGANIZATION DOES?

>> Jiron: ABSOLUTELY.

WE ARE A SURVIVOR-LED ORGANIZATION.

MEANING THAT WE COME TO THIS WORK WITH OUR OWN EXPERIENCES OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, SEXUAL VIOLENCE, AND POSSIBLY EVEN EXPERIENCE MISSING AND MURDERED FAMILY.

SO ONE OF OUR STAFF ACTUALLY HAS EXPERIENCED THIS IN A DEEPER WAY.

OUR LAND AND BODY VIOLENCE COORDINATOR, WHICH IS DEANDRA REED, EXPERIENCED THE MISHAPS OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED WHEN HER SISTER TIFFANY REED WENT MISSING.

SO, WE REALLY DO WORK TOGETHER TO HEAL ONE ANOTHER WHEN WE ARE WORKING IN THE FIELD OF VIOLENCE.

BECAUSE IT'S VERY TRAUMATIZING FOR US.

A LOT OF US ARE DOING SOME HEALING WORK OURSELVES BECAUSE OF OUR OWN EXPERIENCES.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE WORK THAT WE DO FOR SURVIVORS AND IMPACTED FAMILY MEMBERS IS PROVIDE HEALING WORKSHOPS.

WE PROVIDE TRAINING IN EDUCATION, WHICH IS A VERY HUGE DEPARTMENT.

WE HAVE A STAFF OF, I BELIEVE, SEVEN IN THIS DEPARTMENT WITH AN AMAZING DIRECTOR LEADING US AND HELP US ORGANIZE MORE PREVENTION ACTIVITIES AND TRAININGS THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

AND ALSO EXPANDING TO MY SISTER TRIBE DOWN IN YSLETA DEL SUR IN YSLETA, TEXAS.

SO, WE ALSO DO POLICY ADVOCACY.

IN FACT, COMING UP IN NOVEMBER, THERE'S A HUGE TRIBAL CONSULTATION HOSTED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND THE OFFICE OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN WHERE WE WILL BE TAKING TRIBAL LEADERS, AND ALSO IMPACTED FAMILY MEMBERS, TO TESTIFY IN FRONT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ON SOME OF THE NECESSARY CHANGES THAT WE NEED AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

>> Jeff: IT SOUNDS LIKE BASED ON THE NATURE OF THE WORK THAT YOU MUST WORK WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT.

WORK WITH COPS SOMETIMES.

I WONDER HEARING SOMETHING LIKE THIS, HOW DOES THAT IMPACT THAT RELATIONSHIP, BOTH FOR YOUR COALITION AND FOR INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES MORE BROADLY?

>> Jiron: ABSOLUTELY.

IN MOST OF OUR TRAININGS, AND A LOT OF OUR AWARENESS CAMPAIGNS AND A LOT OF OUR SOCIAL MEDIA CONTENT WE PROVIDE RESOURCES FOR FAMILIES, AND FOR SURVIVORS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE ON WHO TO CALL WHEN A SITUATION ARISES.

AND ALWAYS, ALL THE TIME, WE WANT SURVIVORS TO CALL 911.

AND THAT IS OUR FIRST RESPONDERS.

AND OUR FIRST RESPONDERS ARE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS WHO WE NOW FELT THERE'S A BROKEN TRUST.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S ALWAYS JUST BEEN SOME RACIAL -- SYSTEMIC RACISM WITHIN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

AND THIS CLIP CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THIS IS STILL HAPPENING HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE WHERE THERE'S A LARGE POPULATION OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE RESIDING.

I KNOW IN MY PUEBLO WE HIRE A LOT OF APD-RETIRED OFFICERS, WE HIRE A LOT OF APD OFFICERS THAT HAVE BEEN WITH APD FOR A WHILE, AND TO HEAR THAT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, THAT MINDSET AND BELIEF FROM THESE OFFICERS WHO ARE NON-NATIVE, WHO HAVE NO RESPECT FOR INDIGENOUS CULTURES, AND TRIBES, IT'S REALLY HARD TO TRUST WHEN, YOU KNOW, WE EXPECT THEM TO SERVE AND PROTECT US.

TO HEAR THAT THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, WANTING TO BE APART OF THE VIOLENCE INSTEAD OF PROTECTING AGAINST VIOLENCE, THEY'RE IN THE WRONG FIELD.

AND THEY ABSOLUTELY HAVE NO PLACE.

LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOULDN'T HAVE A PLACE FOR ANY OF THESE TYPE OF BEHAVIORS.

IT'S VERY PERPETRATING BEHAVIORS I SEE FROM THOSE CLIPS.

AND VERY ABUSIVE.

WE KNOW THAT THERE'S SOME STATISTICS OUT THERE THAT IDENTIFY THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS DO IN FACT CAUSE A LOT OF HARM.

THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST RATES FOR COMMITTING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AGAINST THEIR SPOUSES AND PARTNERS.

AND EVEN MORE SO RECENTLY, WE'VE HEARD ABOUT SEXUAL VIOLENCE CAUSED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.

I MEAN IT EVEN HAPPENED IN MY PUEBLO.

SO IT'S VERY HARD TO CONTINUE TO TRUST LAW ENFORCEMENT AND WORK WITH THEM, BUT WE ARE OPEN TO, YOU KNOW, HELP AND REFORM AND TRAIN LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS AS LONG AS THEY'RE OPEN-MINDED TO WORKING WITH US AS WELL.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO GET A LITTLE BIT MORE SPECIFIC AND TALK SOME ABOUT THE MISSING AND MURDERED INDIGENOUS PEOPLES CRISIS.

MY FRIEND BELLA DAVIS REPORTS ON THAT CRISIS QUITE A BIT FOR NEW MEXICO IN DEPTH.

SHE'S REPORTED ON THE STATE RESPONSE PLAN.

WE OFTEN READ ABOUT ONE OF THE BARRIERS TO SOLVING THOSE KINDS OF CASES, OR REALLY PROVIDING IS PROPER INVESTIGATION IS WHAT YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT.

THAT NATIVE PEOPLE OFTEN FEEL INVISIBLE OR EVEN WORSE IN THEIR INTERACTIONS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THOSE KINDS OF CASES.

ARE THOSE RECORDINGS THAT WE HEAR THE MANIFESTATION OF THAT?

>> Jiron: ABSOLUTELY.

THERE'S A STRONG CORRELATION WITH WHAT WE JUST HEARD AND WHY CASES OF MMIP AND MMIR ARE NOT HANDLED WITH CARE.

THERE'S FAMILIES OUT THERE WHO ARE DOING THEIR OWN ADVOCACY.

THEY'RE DOING THEIR OWN ORGANIZING.

AND THEY'RE NEEDING ADDITIONAL SUPPORT AND FOLLOW UP FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT.

AND THEY'RE JUST NOT RECEIVING THAT.

I REALLY FEEL THAT IT'S BECAUSE OF THEIR MINDSET, THEIR BEHAVIORS, AND THE WAY THEY'RE THINKING, YOU KNOW, JUST ISN'T ALIGNED WITH THE FAMILY MEMBERS.

WE LOVE AND CARE FOR OUR FAMILY MEMBERS.

AND TO HEAR THAT -- WE HEAR IT ALL THE TIME FROM FAMILIES.

AND WE HAVE A REALLY GOOD WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH A LOT OF OUR IMPACTED FAMILIES OF MMIW AND MMIP THAT THEIR CASES HAVE JUST FALLEN THROUGH THE GAPS BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF INVESTIGATIONS, THE LACK OF CARE.

SOME OF THE CASES THAT COME THROUGH THAT WE GET WIND OF, THEY'RE HANDLED VERY POORLY.

EVIDENCE IS BEING LOST.

THEY'RE NOT DOING THINGS CORRECTLY.

AND I THINK IT'S BECAUSE OF JUST THE SYSTEMATIC RACISM.

AND IT'S CLEARLY STILL EVIDENT THAT THIS IS THE BEHAVIORS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT HANDLING THESE CASES.

THESE FAMILIES ARE IN DIRE NEED OF BETTER SUPPORT.

>> Jeff: YOUR COALITION, TIFFANY, ASKED FOR A NUMBER OF THINGS TO HAPPEN WHEN THESE RECORDINGS HIT THE PRESS.

WHAT WERE SOME OF THEM?

AND HAVE ANY OF THEM HAPPENED?

>> Jiron: YEAH, WE ASKED FOR A PUBLIC APOLOGY.

AND WE'VE ALSO ASKED FOR A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN FROM APD LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SO FAR, I DID GET WIND THAT THERE WAS AN APOLOGY STATED TO MY GOVERNOR, GOVERNOR ZUNI OF THE PUEBLO OF ISLETA.

I SAW A YOUTUBE CLIPPING OF THE DEPUTY CHIEF OF APD MAKING A PUBLIC APOLOGY DURING ONE OF THE ALBUQUERQUE COUNCIL MEETINGS.

BUT I HAVEN'T YET TO SEE A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.

AND YOU KNOW, SOMEONE FROM APD REACHING OUT TO THE COALITION HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

AND I WOULD VERY MUCH WELCOME THAT BECAUSE WE DO NEED OUR APD LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.

AS I MENTIONED, THERE'S A LOT OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE LIVING HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

MY PUEBLO BORDERS ALBUQUERQUE, AND ALSO THE LOS LUNAS AREA.

AND TO BUILD THESE RELATIONSHIPS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

IN FACT, THE COALITION RECENTLY PARTICIPATED IN TWO NATIONAL NIGHT OUTS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.

ONE IN MY PUEBLO, AND ONE IN VALENCIA COUNTY.

AND WE WERE TREATED, YOU KNOW, VERY WELL AND WELCOMED.

AND WE GOT TO MEET LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS THERE AND BUILD RELATIONSHIPS.

AND I WANT TO CONTINUE TO BUILD RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES BECAUSE WE DO NEED THEM.

AND WE CAN DO A BETTER JOB TOGETHER IF THERE'S SOME COLLABORATION.

>> Jeff: BEYOND THAT, TIFFANY, HOW DOES THIS GET BETTER?

I KNOW THAT YOU'RE A MEMBER OF THE MMIP ADVISORY COUNCIL.

IS THERE A ROLE FOR THAT GROUP?

IS THERE A ROLE FOR THE LEGISLATURE?

HOW DO WE NOT HAVE THIS CONVERSATION AGAIN?

>> Jiron: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I, AS A MEMBER OF THE ADVISORY COUNCIL, I KNOW THAT SOME THINGS ARE ON PAUSE RIGHT NOW AS THE INDIAN AFFAIRS DEPARTMENT IS WORKING REALLY HARD AND DILIGENTLY ON FINDING A NEW SPECIAL PROJECTS COORDINATOR FOR THIS POSITION TO LEAD THE ADVISORY COUNCIL.

AND SO, I KNOW THEY'RE WORKING EXTREMELY HARD TO GET THIS BACK UP AND GOING.

AND MEETINGS WILL HAPPEN SOON, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK VERY HARD AND PROVIDING ADVICE AND SUPPORT, ESPECIALLY KEEPING FAMILIES INVOLVED AND MAKING SURE THEY'RE A PART OF THE DISCUSSION.

I KNOW MY ROLE AS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, I WANT TO CONTINUE TO KEEP FAMILIES AT THE FOREFRONT AND THEIR VOICES AT THE FOREFRONT AND MAKING SURE THEY'RE INCLUDED IN OUR UPCOMING TRIBAL LEADERS OVW CONSULTATION THAT'S GOING TO BE HAPPENING HERE IN SANTA FE-POJOAQUE PUEBLO AT THE BUFFALO THUNDER THIS YEAR.

>> Jeff: TIFFANY JIRON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE COALITION TO STOP VIOLENCE AGAINST NATIVE WOMEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE CONVERSATION.

>> Jiron: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Lou: THANK YOU TO TIFFANY JIRON FROM THE COALITION TO STOP VIOLENCE AGAINST NATIVE WOMEN FOR TAKING THE TIME TO COME IN AND SPEAK WITH US.

NOW, IF YOU FOLLOWED ALONG WITH US ON SOCIAL MEDIA THIS WEEK, OR LISTENED TO THIS WEEK'S PODCAST EPISODE, YOU KNOW ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCILORS WERE CONSIDERING LOWERING THE MINIMUM WAGE FOR TIPPED WORKERS IN THE CITY.

BUT THAT PROPOSAL APPEARS TO BE ON HOLD.

THE CONVERSATION STARTED WHEN COUNCILOR NICHOLE ROGERS FIRST INTRODUCED A PROPOSAL THAT WOULD HAVE RAISED THE CITY'S MINIMUM WAGE TO THE STATE'S MINIMUM OF $12 AN HOUR.

RIGHT NOW, IT'S $11.10 PER HOUR IN ALBUQUERQUE.

EVEN THE STATE'S $12 RATE IS THE PREVAILING WAGE.

COUNCILOR RENEE GROUT LATER INTRODUCED AN AMENDMENT TO CUT PAY FOR TIPPED WORKERS ALSO TO MATCH THE STATE'S RATE OF $3 PER HOUR.

BUT WEDNESDAY GROUT AND COUNCILOR BROOK BASSAN ANNOUNCED THEY WOULD NO LONGER SUPPORT ANY CHANGES, SAYING COUNCIL NEEDS MORE TIME TO HEAR FROM WORKERS AND BUSINESS LEADERS.

THAT COMES AS MAYOR TIM KELLER IS SET TO JOIN COUNCILORS RODGERS AND TAMMY FIEBELKORN, ALONG WITH LABOR REPRESENTATIVES, FOR A NEWS CONFERENCE THURSDAY AS WE TAPE THIS SHOW.

A PRESS RELEASE FROM THE MAYOR'S OFFICE SAYS THAT THE GROUP WANTS TO OUTLINE THE IMPORTANCE OF MODERNIZING ALBUQUERQUE'S MINIMUM WAGE ORDINANCE.

WITH THAT IN MIND, WE WANTED TO GIVE YOU A BIT MORE CONTEXT ON HOW OTHER CITIES IN OUR STATE DETERMINE THEIR MINIMUM WAGES.

STATEWIDE, THAT RATE IS $12 PER HOUR.

AND $3 PER HOUR FOR TIPPED WORKERS.

THAT'S THE RATE FOR EVERYONE IN NEW MEXICO NOT LIVING IN A CITY WITH ITS OWN HIGHER WAGE RATE.

SO, IN ALBUQUERQUE WHERE THE MINIMUM HOURLY RATE IS $11.10, THE STATE'S $12 RATE TAKES EFFECT, BUT AT THIS MOMENT ALBUQUERQUE'S MINIMUM TIPPED WAGE IS $7.20 PER HOUR.

SO THAT TRUMPS THE STATE'S $3 RATE.

IN THE STATE'S SECOND LARGEST CITY, LAS CRUCES, EMPLOYERS ARE REQUIRED TO PAY A MINIMUM HOURLY WAGE OF $12.36 PER HOUR AND $4.95 FOR TIPPED WORKERS.

THAT WENT INTO EFFECT JANUARY 1st OF THIS YEAR.

LAS CRUCES ENACTED AN ORDINANCE IN 2014 THAT TIES MINIMUM WAGE INCREASES TO RISING INFLATION RATES AS MEASURED BY THE NATIONAL CONSUMER PRICE INDEX.

SANTA FE'S MINIMUM WAGE WORKS OUT ABOUT THE SAME WAY, RISING EACH YEAR TO MATCH INFLATION.

IT BUMPED UP TO $14.16 PER HOUR ON MARCH 1st.

THE BASE WAGE FOR TIPPED WORKERS IN THE CITY IS $4.36.

NOW, WE'LL BE FOLLOWING THIS STORY IN THE COMING WEEKS AS THE ALBUQUERQUE MAYOR MAKES HIS POSITION KNOWN AND AS COUNCILORS REGROUP.

THIS SPRING, ACLU BOARD MEMBER GABRIELLE UBALLEZ BEGAN HER NEW JOB AS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF NEW MEXICO VOICES FOR CHILDREN.

IT'S A NONPROFIT THAT'S HELPED LOW-INCOME CHILDREN AND FAMILIES FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS.

IN THIS CONVERSATION WE FIRST AIRED IN APRIL, UBALLEZ SITS DOWN WITH CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS TO DISCUSS CHILD POVERTY.

IT'S A PROBLEM THAT'S PLAGUED NEW MEXICO FOR YEARS.

UBALLEZ PLANS TO FIGHT IT WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF FINANCIAL LITERACY PROGRAMS.

>> Russell: GABRIELLE UBALLEZ, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US HERE ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Uballez: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, RUSSEL.

>> Russell: SO, NEW MEXICO VOICE FOR CHILDREN, THEY HAVE THIS ANNUAL KIDS COUNT REPORT.

IT MONITORS OUR CHILD POVERTY ANNUALLY.

WHILE THERE ARE SOME POSITIVE SIGNS ABOUT IMPROVING FAMILIES WITH, SAY, HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMAS, WE STILL RANK NEAR THE BOTTOM IN MANY CATEGORIES.

WHAT ARE WE GETTING WRONG HERE?

>> Uballez: THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION, RUSSEL.

I THINK THAT THE KIDS COUNT REPORT DOESN'T TELL US A FULL STORY.

AND IT TELL US A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE STORY AT THE SAME TIME.

OUR MOST RECENT KIDS COUNT DATA SHOWED THAT 24% OF CHILDREN IN NEW MEXICO ARE STILL LIVING IN POVERTY.

AND THAT'S DOWN FROM 31%, TEN YEARS AGO.

SO, WE'RE MAKING GREAT STRIDES.

AND WHAT WE MEASURE MATTERS.

AT VOICES WE LIKE TO NERD-OUT ABOUT POLICY IN THE WAY THAT WE LOOK AT DATA, AND THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO LOOK AT WHERE NEW MEXICO IS IN TERMS OF POVERTY FOR CHILDREN.

ONE OF THOSE WAYS IS THE SUPPLEMENTAL POVERTY MEASURE, AND WHEN WE LOOK AT THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY AT 10%.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE OF THE REALLY ROBUST INCOME SUPPORT PROGRAMS THAT OUR STATE HAS ENACTED RECENTLY.

>> Russell: INCOME SUPPORT PROGRAMS, NERDING-OUT, LOVE THIS.

BUT WE OFTEN HEAR CRITICS OF REPORTS LIKE THIS SAY OH, LET'S NOT COMPARE NEW MEXICO TO OTHER STATES.

LET'S JUST DISMISS THE DATA.

WHAT ARE THE DANGERS WHEN WE SAY THAT, LET'S JUST DISMISS THE DATA?

NEW MEXICO IS SO UNIQUE.

WE DON'T NEED TO COMPARE OURSELVES TO CONNECTICUT OR MASSACHUSETTS, ARE THERE ANY DANGERS IN THAT?

>> Uballez: I DON'T THINK THERE ARE DANGERS IN THAT SPECIFICALLY.

AND I DON'T SEE THE VALUE IN SAYING, OKAY, WE'RE 50th.

I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE INDIVIDUAL DATA STATS AND UNDERSTAND SORT OF WHAT POLICIES AND SYSTEMS ARE RESULTING IN THOSE OUTCOMES.

AND LOOK AT THEM BOTH IN DISCREET WAYS BUT INTERCONNECTED WAYS.

SO, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE'RE COMPETING AGAINST OURSELF AND THERE ARE OTHER THINGS WE CAN MEASURE THAT SHOW US WHERE WE'RE MAKING POSITIVE IMPACT.

>> Russell: WE OFTEN ASK THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM TO FIX EVERYTHING, BUT WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH POVERTY.

WHAT SHOULD WE DO TO ADDRESS THE POVERTY AND CHILD WELL-BEING WHEN THAT COULD FIX THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.

IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

IS THERE ANYTHING WE NEED TO THINKING ABOUT HOLISTICALLY?

>> Russell: YEAH, THE PERSISTENT CHILDHOOD POVERTY NARRATIVE IN NEW MEXICO IS SOMETHING I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN.

I THINK THERE'S A FEW ISSUES WITH THAT NARRATIVE WE NEED TO ADDRESS.

WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT WITH LOT MORE NUANCE AND UNDERSTAND HOW POVERTY IMPACTS DIFFERENT FAMILIES IN DIFFERENT WAYS BECAUSE OF HISTORIC INEQUITIES AND OPPRESSION THAT IS LIKE BAKED INTO OUR SYSTEMS.

SO, WE KNOW THAT CHILDREN OF COLOR SUFFER MUCH GREATER RATES OF POVERTY.

I THINK HISPANIC CHILDREN ARE AT 27%.

BLACK CHILDREN IN NEW MEXICO 29%.

NATIVE CHILDREN 39%.

SO, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW RACE PLAYS INTO INEQUITIES THAT RESULT IN POVERTY.

AT THE SAME TIME, IN NEW MEXICO OUR GOAL SHOULD BE ZERO CHILDREN LIVING IN POVERTY.

AND 14% OF WHITE CHILDREN ALSO ARE LIVING IN POVERTY IN NEW MEXICO.

THE OTHER THING I'D LIKE TO SAY IS WHEN WE LOOK AT THE DEFICIT-BASED DATA, SOME PEOPLE ARE VERY RIGHTFULLY FRUSTRATED AND THINK WE'RE SAYING NEW MEXICO IS BAD OR NEW MEXICANS ARE BAD.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

WE BELIEVE THAT SYSTEMS THAT HAVE EXISTED FOR A REALLY LONG TIME ARE RESULTING IN THESE PERSISTENT POVERTY RATES.

AND THE GOOD NEWS IS WE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE THEM.

SO, WHAT I'M REALLY PROUD OF IS, ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST DECADE, NEW MEXICO HAS MADE GREAT STRIDES IN THOSE INCOME-SUPPORT PROGRAMS THAT I TALKED ABOUT THAT HAS REDUCED OUR SUPPLEMENTAL POVERTY RATE TO 10%.

SO NEW MEXICO FAMILIES ARE DOING MUCH BETTER.

AND WE HAVE RESULTS TO SHOW FOR IT.

SO, WE SHOULD KEEP INVESTING IN THOSE PROGRAMS.

>> Russell: YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT.

LET'S LOOK AT SOME OTHER DATA.

RATHER THAN THE DATA WE RUN TO, SAY, LIKE THE LUNCH PROGRAMS AND SO FORTH.

WHAT OTHER DATA SHOULD WE BE PULLING OUT AND LOOKING AT TELLS US A DIFFERENT STORY THAT WOULD KIND OF CHANGE THE WAY WE LOOK AT THINGS?

IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN POINT TO SAY WE SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON THAT?

>> Uballez: I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY LIKE WHAT OTHER DATA WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT IN TERMS OF PEOPLE.

BUT WHAT I WILL SAY IS WE SHOULD ALSO START COLLECTING DATA THAT FOCUSES ON SYSTEMS.

SO, NOT HOW ARE NEW MEXICANS DOING AS THE ONLY THING WE LOOK AT, BUT HOW ARE SYSTEMS SERVING PEOPLE, HOW ARE THEY REACHING PEOPLE, AND HOW ARE THOSE SYSTEMS IMPACTING THEIR LIVES.

SO LET'S JUDGE THE SYSTEMS A LITTLE MORE AND COMPARE THAT TO WHERE PEOPLE ARE ENDING UP AS A RESULT OF THEM.

>> Russell: SO YOU WOULDN'T PUT THE BLAME ON THE PEOPLE, YOU'RE SAYING WAIT A MINUTE YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER THE SYSTEMS.

>> Uballez: WE NEVER PUT THE BLAME ON THE PEOPLE, IT'S THE SYSTEMS WE HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE.

THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS.

WE CREATE THE SYSTEMS, WE CAN REIMAGINE THEM TOO.

>> Russell: THAT'S A GOOD POINT.

BUT HOW CAN WE MEASURE THOSE SYSTEMS?

YOU CAN MEASURE THE SCHOOL DISTRICTS, MEASURE AGENCIES.

WHAT COULD WE DO TO MEASURE SOME OF THOSE?

>> Uballez: YEAH, I MEAN, SO NEW MEXICO VOICES FOR CHILDREN HAS THIS REPUTATION AS A TAX AND BUDGET POLICY ORGANIZATION, WHICH I REALLY LOVE.

IT'S VERY NERDY, AND IT'S MAYBE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DON'T IMMEDIATELY CARE OR THINK ABOUT WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT IMPROVING NEW MEXICO.

BUT THAT'S A BIG ONE, RIGHT?

ADDRESSING WEALTH INEQUALITY AND WHO PAYS INTO THE SYSTEM AND HOW IS A BIG PART OF WHAT WE SHOULD MEASURE.

AND NEW MEXICO IS DOING REALLY GREAT THERE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE HEARD THIS STAT, BUT WE'RE IN THE TOP 10 IN THE NATION FOR THE MOST FAIR AND PROGRESSIVE TAX POLICIES.

AND WE ACTUALLY ARE THE MOST IMPROVED IN THE NATION.

SO, THOSE WHO ARE MAKING AND EARNING THE LEAST ARE NOT PAYING THE MOST ANYMORE.

AND THOSE WHO ARE VERY WELL-OFF AND WEALTHY ARE PAYING MORE INTO THE SYSTEMS THAT BENEFIT US ALL.

SO THAT'S ONE EXAMPLE OF WHERE WE CAN MEASURE OUR SYSTEMS FOR IMPACT.

>> Russell: SINCE THE 1960s, EFFORTS TO FIGHT INEQUALITY CENTERED AROUND ANTI- POVERTY INITIATIVES.

BUT THERE'S A NEW MOVEMENT, LET'S START TALKING ABOUT BUILDING WEALTH, FINANCIAL LITERACY, WHERE DO YOU COME OUT ON ALL THAT?

>> Uballez: THAT'S MY JAM.

MY BACKGROUND IS IN WEALTH BUILDING.

I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR THAT I DON'T THINK THE DISCUSSION SHOULD EVER BE SHOULD WE FOCUS ON POVERTY ALLEVIATION OR WEALTH BUILDING.

IT'S AND.

WE NEED THEM BOTH.

WEALTH BUILDING, THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT MEETING PEOPLE'S IMMEDIATE NEEDS SO THEY CAN SURVIVE, BUT IT'S ABOUT GIVING THEM THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND DIGNITY TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS.

WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE IN POLICY ARE THINGS LIKE BABY BONDS, ACCESS TO AFFORDABLE CREDIT, FREE COLLEGE TUITION, ACCESS TO AFFORDABLE CHILDCARE, AND THINGS THAT ALLOW PEOPLE TO BUILD FINANCIAL STABILITY AND ADVANCE THEIR LIVES ON THEIR OWN TERMS WITH SUPPORT FROM OUR STATE GOVERNMENT.

SO, THIS IS NOT BOOTSTRAPS, RIGHT?

THIS IS HOW DO WE USE STATE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE PEOPLE DIGNITY AND MAKING THEIR OWN FINANCIAL DECISIONS THAT IMPROVE THEIR LIVES.

>> Russell: NOW, YOU'RE FROM THE SOUTH VALLEY.

YOU'RE A PRODUCT OF THE SOUTH VALLEY, YET YOU WENT TO COLLEGE OUT OF STATE.

WHAT ARE WE MISSING TO GIVE OTHER SOUTH VALLEY YOUNG WOMEN LIKE YOURSELF THE SAME RESOURCES TO THINK ABOUT HIGHER EDUCATION IN OTHER STATES?

SOME FOLKS SAY YOU GOT LUCKY, YOU GOT INTO A PROGRAM.

THE WORLD HELPED YOU OUT IN SOME WAYS.

BUT THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS.

HOW CAN WE TALK TO SOME OF THOSE OTHER SOUTH VALLEY GIRLS TODAY AND SAY, NO, YOU CAN FOLLOW IN GABRIELLE'S FOOTSTEPS AND GO TO SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA OR THINK ABOUT YALE.

WHAT ARE WE DOING?

>> Uballez: YEAH, THANKS FOR THAT QUESTION.

I WILL PROUDLY CLAIM THE SOUTH VALLEY.

MY PARENTS ARE FROM RIO GRANDE HIGH SCHOOL.

I ACTUALLY WENT TO VALLEY HIGH SCHOOL.

SO I WAS A NORTH VALLEY KID.

BUT VALLEY GIRL, THROUGH AND THROUGH.

SIMILAR EXPERIENCE, GOING TO AN ALBUQUERQUE PUBLIC SCHOOL.

I THINK DREAMING BIGGER THAN MAYBE SOME OF THE PEOPLE AROUND ME THOUGHT WAS POSSIBLE.

PART OF IT WAS LUCK, BUT NOT DUMB LUCK.

IT WAS THE ADULTS AROUND ME CREATING THINGS THAT SET ME UP FOR SUCCESS.

A BIG THING IN MY LIFE WAS AN AFTER-SCHOOL AND SUMMER PROGRAM I WENT TO CALLED WORKING CLASSROOM.

IT'S AN ORGANIZATION THAT'S STILL AROUND.

IT'S BEEN AROUND FOR, I THINK, ALMOST 40 YEARS NOW.

AND IT'S WHERE WE SPENT OUR SUMMERS AND AFTERNOONS BEING CRITICAL THINKERS.

AT 17, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE PREDATORY LENDING WHICH IS HILARIOUS TO ME.

LIKE WHAT 17-YEAR-OLD KNOWS THAT TERM?

AND THAT JUST REALLY GOT US INVOLVED IN THE COMMUNITY THROUGH ARTS AND SOCIAL JUSTICE AND COLLABORATION.

>> Russell: YOU HAVE THREE SMALL CHILDREN, AS I DO.

I HAVE TWO.

YOU CHOOSE TO LIVE HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

IN ALBUQUERQUE.

YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE ELSE, BUT WHY DO YOU STAY HERE?

>> Uballez: THIS IS HOME.

I MEAN, WE LOVE NEW MEXICO.

WE LOVE THE PEOPLE HERE.

AND I KNOW THAT BOTH MY HUSBAND AND I REALLY FEEL LIKE WE OWE OUR HEARTS AND OUR LABOR AND OUR VISION AND OUR WILLINGNESS TO COLLABORATE WITH OTHERS TO MAKE NEW MEXICO THE BEST PLACE TO BE A KID.

BECAUSE IT'S THE BEST PLACE TO BE A TEACHER, A DOCTOR, A CARE WORKER.

THAT'S HOW WE GET TO MAKE NEW MEXICO THE BEST PLACE TO BE A KID.

>> Russell: GABRIELLE UBALLEZ, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF NEW MEXICO VOICES FOR CHILDREN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

>> Uballez: THANK YOU, RUSSEL.

>> Lou: ALL NEW MEXICANS KNOW HOW IMPORTANT WATER IS TO OUR STATE.

BUT WATER MANAGEMENT IS NOT A NEUTRAL TERM.

IN A NEW BOOK THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO'S DR. K. MARIA LANE LOOKS BACK TO THE TURN OF THE 20th CENTURY AND THE CREATION OF THE WATER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM NEW MEXICANS ARE FAMILIAR WITH TODAY.

AS SHE SHOWS US IN HER BOOK "FLUID GEOGRAPHIES," THE STATE'S AUTHORITY OVER WATER ISN'T BASED ON OBJECTIVE SCIENCE, BUT IT IS PART OF A LARGER STRUCTURE OF MOVING WATER AND AUTHORITY AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED HERE AND INTO THE CONTROL OF ANGLOS.

HERE DR. LANE TALKS WITH OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS.

>> Laura: DR. LANE, WELCOME.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE NEW BOOK.

>> Dr. Lane: THANK YOU, GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: THANKS.

THIS BOOK CENTERS AROUND THE OFFICE OF THE TERRITORIAL ENGINEER, WHICH IS THE PRECURSOR TO THE STATE ENGINEER, AND THE ROLE OF COURTS AND JUDGES AND MOVING WATER AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED HERE AND TOWARD AND INTO THE CONTROL OF ANGLOS.

SO, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS IDEA BECAUSE EVEN HERE ON THE SHOW ALL THE TIME WE TALK ABOUT WATER MANAGEMENT AS THOUGH IT'S KIND OF THIS NEUTRAL TERM, BUT IN FACT IT'S NOT REALLY NEUTRAL.

HOW DID, AS YOU WRITE IN YOUR BOOK "WATER MANAGEMENT," PROVIDE THE KEYSTONE FOR A BROADER STRUCTURE OF DISPOSSESSION?

>> Dr. Lane: YEAH, SO IN THIS BOOK WHICH IS A HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHY, SO FOCUSING ON BOTH HOW THINGS CHANGE IN TIME AND IN SPACE, LOOKING AT SPECIFICALLY AT CHANGES THAT HAPPENED IN HOW WATER WAS MANAGED IN NEW MEXICO.

WHAT I'M REALLY TRYING TO FOCUS ON ARE THESE POINTS OF CHANGE, RIGHT?

THE TRANSITION THAT HAPPENED.

AND TRANSITIONS CAN HAPPEN QUICKLY AND THE IMPOSITION OF A NEW POLICY OR LAW, BUT THEY ALSO CAN HAPPEN SLOWLY IN TERMS OF HOW PEOPLE THINK ABOUT WATER MANAGEMENT OR THINK ABOUT WHAT'S RIGHT OR THINK ABOUT WHETHER THEY SHOULD FOLLOW THE POLICY OR NOT FOLLOW THE POLICY.

SO, I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN THE COMPLEXITY OF HOW THESE CHANGES HAPPEN.

AND WE KNOW THAT NEW MEXICO HAS A LONG HISTORY OF COLONIALITY.

THAT WE HAVE DIFFERENT WAVES OF COLONIZERS WHO COME INTO THIS REGION AND TAKE CONTROL OVER TERRITORY AND RESOURCES FROM PEOPLE WHO PRE-EXISTED THEM.

AND I AM TRYING TO SHOW THAT WATER MANAGEMENT WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF HOW THIS COLONIZATION HAPPENED WHEN IT COMES TO THE ANGLO WAVE OF COLONIZATION, WHICH HAPPENED AFTER THIS REGION BECAME PART OF THE UNITED STATES TERRITORY.

SO, STARTING IN THE LATE 1800s AND THEN GETTING UP TO THE POINT WHERE MY BOOK REALLY FOCUSES, THE TURN OF THE CENTURY AND LEADING UP UNTIL STATEHOOD, WATER MANAGEMENT BECAME A TOOL OF TAKING TERRITORY, AND TAKING NOT JUST TERRITORY BUT CONTROL DECISION-MAKING OVER RESOURCES.

AND IT WAS DONE IN A REALLY SPECIFIC WAY, AND I TRY TO GET A LOT INTO THE DETAILS OF THE POLICY AND IMPLEMENTATION IN THE BOOK.

BUT TO SHOW THAT WAS PART OF DISPOSSESSION.

IT WASN'T JUST LIKE HEY, HERE'S SOME GREAT NEW METHODS FOR HOW WE CAN BE MORE EFFICIENT WITH OUR WATER USE.

IT WAS REALLY ABOUT SAYING, THIS FORM OF KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WATER IS NO LONGER VALUED.

AND THIS NEW FORM OF SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE IS GOING TO BE VALUED, AND WE'RE ONLY GOING TO CARE ABOUT THE THINGS WE CAN MEASURE WITH THIS NEW FORM OF KNOWLEDGE.

AND THAT GIVES US A NEW SYSTEM AND IT GIVES A NEW FUTURE REALLY FROM THAT POINT FORWARD TO NOW THAT DISPOSSESSED CERTAIN PEOPLE AND EMPOWERED CERTAIN OTHER PEOPLE AND ISN'T NEUTRAL.

>> Laura: YEAH, ONE OF THE THINGS I'M REALLY STRUCK BY WITH YOUR RESEARCH AND THIS BOOK AND MULTIPLE EXAMPLES THROUGHOUT THIS BOOK IS HOW IRRIGATION ENGINEERS ARE ALL ABOUT EFFICIENCY, AND ANGLO WATER USERS WERE BY AND LARGE UNFAMILIAR WITH THE LANDSCAPE.

AND THERE ARE LOT OF EXAMPLES OF HOW THEY'RE EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT.

YET THAT KNOWLEDGE OF ANGLOS WAS GIVEN THE HIGHER PRIORITY BY JUDGES AND COURTS.

HOW DID THAT PLAY OUT HISTORICALLY AND HOW DOES IT STILL -- THE IMPACTS OF THAT PLAY OUT TODAY STILL?

>> Dr. Lane: YEAH, I HAVE AN ENTIRE CHAPTER ON EXPERTISE AND THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE IDEA OF EXPERTISE OVER WATER.

AND I THINK IT IS REALLY INTERESTING THAT EXPERTISE BECAME -- IT BECAME SYNONYMOUS WITH A KIND OF PERSON.

LIKE EXPERTISE IS CONSTRUCTED AS A PERSONAL CHARACTERISTIC NOT AS SOME OBJECTIVE MEASUREMENT.

IT'S LIKE THESE PEOPLE ARE EXPERTS AND THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT EXPERTS.

SO, THAT WAS ANGLO WHITE PEOPLE WERE EXPERTS AND NON-ANGLO NON-WHITE PEOPLE WERE NOT EXPERTS.

AND WHERE THAT COMES FROM IS A POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY OF PROGRESSIVISM, YOU KNOW CAPITAL "P" PROGRESSIVE PARTY TURN OF THE CENTURY WAS ALL ABOUT EFFICIENCY AND RATIONAL MANAGEMENT OF RESOURCES, WHICH BROUGHT US A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE REALLY VALUE AND STILL VALUE TODAY INCLUDING THE NATIONAL FOREST, AND THE NATIONAL PARKS AND ALL THIS IDEA OF SETTING ASIDE LAND AND MANAGING IT REALLY RATIONALLY SO THAT EVERYONE WOULD BENEFIT.

AND IT WOULDN'T JUST BE USED UP.

BUT, IT INTRODUCES SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC.

AND I REALLY TRY TO EXPLORE IN THIS BOOK, WHICH IS THIS IDEA THAT WE CAN ONLY MAKE DECISIONS ON THIS RATIONAL BASIS, OTHERWISE THEY'RE BAD DECISIONS.

AND SO, PEOPLE WHO HAVE MATHEMATICS TRAINING, OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE HYDROLOGIC TRAINING ARE CONSIDERED LIKE THE NEW EXPERTS ON WATER MANAGEMENT.

AND THE UNBELIEVABLE THING THAT'S UNRECOGNIZED, AT LEAST IN THIS TIME AND IN THE HISTORICAL RECORD, IS THAT YOU HAVE LAND-BASED PEOPLE LIVING IN THIS REGION WITH GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS OF KNOWLEDGE PASSED DOWN ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS, ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE, WATER FLOW, WATER USE, WATER MANAGEMENT, AND THEY'RE NO LONGER EXPERTS BECAUSE THE NEW EXPERTS HAVE TO HAVE DEGREES IN HYDROLOGY OR DEGREES IN FORESTRY, OR DEGREES IN MATH, OR WHATEVER.

AND THAT'S A REALLY, LIKE ON THE FACE OF IT LOOKING BACK, IT'S LIKE REALLY THESE PEOPLE COMING IN ARE THE ONES WHO KNEW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THIS REGION, OR ABOUT WATER.

AND MOST OF THEM ARE EASTERNERS, FROM THE EASTERN U.S., AND DIDN'T UNDERSTAND PERSONALLY UNDERSTAND ARID CONDITIONS LIKE THESE GENERATIONAL RESIDENTS DID.

SO, WHAT AN INTERESTING IRONY THAT EXPERTISE GETS CONSTRUCTED BASED ON THIS PROGRESSIVE POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY AS BEING THE EDUCATED WHITE PEOPLE FROM THE EAST WHO WERE IN FACT COMING INTO A LANDSCAPE THAT THEY KNEW NOTHING ABOUT AND HAD HIGH LEVELS OF IGNORANCE AND THE FIRST TERRITORIAL ENGINEER, IRRIGATION ENGINEER IS WRITING IN HIS REPORTS ANNUALLY TO THE GOVERNOR LIKE OUR BIG PROBLEM IS THESE NEW PEOPLE COMING FROM THE EAST ARE TOTALLY WASTING WATER.

THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT HOW IGNORANT PEOPLE WERE AND SAYING WHITE PEOPLE ALONE HAVE THE EXPERTISE TO MANAGE WATER.

WHICH WAS JUST HOW PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THINGS AT THAT TIME WITHOUT REALLY ADDRESSING THE RACISM THAT LAYS BEHIND IT.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

THIS BOOK IS BASED ON INCREDIBLE HISTORICAL RESEARCH, INCLUDING COURT RECORDS.

WHY WERE YOU LOOKING AT COURT RECORDS AND DID THEY SHOW?

>> Dr. Lane: YEAH, SO I WAS INTERESTED IN LIKE HOW DID POLICY CHANGE, BUT ALSO HOW DID IT AFFECT PEOPLE'S DAILY LIVES.

AND WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND PEOPLE'S DAILY LIFE, PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE OUT ON A LAND USING WATER, MAKING A DECISION ABOUT SHOULD I IRRIGATE THIS FIELD OR NOT IRRIGATE THIS FIELD, OR HOW SHOULD I HANDLE THE FACT THAT A FLOOD JUST CAME THROUGH IN THIS ORCHARD I JUST PLANTED IS AT RISK, THERE'S NOT LOT OF DOCUMENTARY RECORDS TO HELP US UNDERSTAND THAT.

SO, I CAN GO AND GET ALL THE OFFICE OF THE ENGINEER, I CAN GO AND GET ALL THE REPORTS.

I CAN LOOK AT ALL THE REPORTS THE GOVERNOR TO THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR.

I CAN GET ALL THE OFFICIAL REPORTS AND LEARN A LOT ABOUT HOW THEY THOUGHT ABOUT KNOWLEDGE AND WHAT WERE THEIR GOALS POLICY-WISE AND MANAGEMENT-WISE AT THE THAT TIME.

BUT I CAN'T FIND -- THERE'S NO BOOK OF REPORTS ON THIS FARMER OR THAT FARMER.

SO, COURT RECORDS FELT TO ME LIKE A WAY OF ACCESSING INDIVIDUAL STORIES.

SO, I WENT AND PULLED -- SO LOOKING AT ALL THE COUNTIES ALONG THE RIO CHAMA, RIO GRANDE EXTENT IN NEW MEXICO AND THE COUNTY BOUNDARIES WERE DIFFERENT THEN OF COURSE, BUT I LOOKED AT THE 12 YEARS BEFORE STATEHOOD, 1900-1912.

WENT THROUGH ALL THOSE COUNTIES AND PULLED EVERY SINGLE COURT CASE THAT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH WATER AT THE DISTRICT COURT.

WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN AT THAT TIME THE LOWEST LEVEL COURT THAT WOULD HAVE HEARD A WATER DISPUTE, AS AN EFFORT TO GET AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO SOME OF THOSE INDIVIDUAL STORIES AND HISTORIES.

NOW, IT'S NOT A COMPLETE RECORD, RIGHT?

BECAUSE YOU AND I COULD HAVE A WATER DISPUTE AND NEVER HAVE A COURT CLAIM OVER IT.

AND IT NEVER WENT INTO ANY KIND OF RECORD.

AND MAYBE WE DID HAVE A WATER DISPUTE, IT WENT INTO THE RECORD AND I GOT IT OUT OF THE ARCHIVES AND I READ IT, BUT A LOT OF DOCUMENTS WERE MISSING INCLUDING MAYBE THE FINAL RESOLUTION.

SO, IT IS AN INCOMPLETE SOURCE, BUT IT'S A WAY AT GETTING AT THOSE INDIVIDUAL STORIES AND UNDERSTANDING REALLY WHAT WERE THE PAIN POINTS OR WHAT WERE -- HOW WERE PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT WHAT WAS THE RIGHT WAY TO THINK ABOUT WATER, TO THINK ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL CHANGE.

WE CAN READ A LOT OF THAT IN THE COURT RECORDS, SO THAT'S WHY I WENT TO THOSE.

AND THAT WAS ABOUT 180 COURT CASES FROM THAT REGION FROM THAT TIME PERIOD, WHICH IS A PRETTY ROBUST RECORD, I THINK.

>> Laura: SO YOUR BOOK IS NOT PRESCRIPTIVE, BUT I'M -- I'D LOVE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHO SHOULD READ THIS BOOK, OR WHO DO YOU HOPE READS THIS BOOK, AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THE LESSONS WE REALLY NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW?

>> Dr. Lane: WELL, I THINK THIS IS -- THIS BOOK SHOULD BE READ BY PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST STUDENTS OF NEW MEXICO HISTORY.

AND PEOPLE WHO AREN'T LOOKING FOR EASY SOLUTIONS BECAUSE THERE ARE NO SOLUTIONS PROPOSED IN THIS BOOK.

AND IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, EASY SOLUTIONS ARE ALWAYS FALSE SOLUTIONS.

I MEAN, THIS IS REALLY -- THIS BOOK IS JUST TELLING A STORY OF HOW COMPLEX THE CONDITIONS ARE THAT GIVE RISE TO CERTAIN POLICIES.

AND IF WE GO BACK AND LOOK AT HOW DID THIS ACTUAL POLICY DEVELOP, WE CAN SEE EVERY STEP OF THE WAY IF WE LOOK AT IT REALLY -- WE CAN SEE THE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE, THE SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE, THE SPECIFIC POLICY ELEMENTS THAT PRODUCE SOMETHING AT A CERTAIN TIME.

BUT THERE COULD HAVE BEEN OTHER OPTIONS AT THAT TIME.

IT COULD HAVE GONE A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

IT DIDN'T, AND SO WE END UP ON THE PATH THAT LEADS US TO TODAY.

BUT I THINK IT'S HOPEFUL TO THINK ABOUT HOW COULD THINGS HAVE GONE DIFFERENTLY AND TO REALLY UNDERSTAND WHY DID THEY GO THIS WAY.

BECAUSE THEN THAT HELPS US THINK ABOUT HOW WE MIGHT DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY IN THE FUTURE.

SO, I'M NOT A POLICY ANALYST, AND I AM NOT GOING TO GIVE A JUDGMENT ON, YOU KNOW, WHO SHOULD BE IN CHARGE OF WATER OR HOW SHOULD WE MANAGE WATER.

BUT I REALLY THINK THE LESSON THAT I LEARNED AND THAT I'M TRYING TO IMPART TO READERS IS THAT IF WE TAKE A SINGLE POLICY OR A SINGLE APPROACH LIKE SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE OR ENGINEERING POLICY, FOR EXAMPLE, AS THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO CREATE PERFECT WATER MANAGEMENT, WE WILL BE WRONG.

LIKE, I THINK -- WHAT I SEE FROM ALL OF THESE STORIES IN THIS BOOK IS THAT WE HAVE TO REALLY THINK BROADLY ABOUT HOW CAN DIFFERENT FORMS OF KNOWLEDGE COME TOGETHER.

HOW COULD WE CREATE AN ENVIRONMENTAL FUTURE THAT WASN'T DISPOSSESSIVE BASED ON A SPECIFIC POLICY THAT EXCLUDED THE EXPERTISE OF AN ENTIRE RACIAL OR ETHNIC GROUP OF PEOPLE.

THAT WE COULD DO THAT, IN THE PAST WE DIDN'T, BUT I THINK IT'S HOPEFUL TO THINK ABOUT HOW THERE'S NOTHING SET IN STONE ABOUT THESE PAST CHOICES.

SO, I HOPE A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL READ IT.

IT'S GOT A LOT OF DENSE HISTORICAL DETAIL, BUT ALSO SOME REALLY INTERESTING STORIES.

AND I THINK ADDS A LOT TO OUR HISTORICAL UNDERSTANDING OF NEW MEXICO.

>> Laura: YEAH.

ABSOLUTELY.

I HOPE THAT LOTS OF WATER MANAGERS AND STUDENTS.

AND I REALLY APPRECIATE THE WORK IN THIS BOOK.

AND I'M THANKFUL THAT YOU'RE ON THE SHOW TODAY.

SO, DR. LANE, THANK YOU.

>> Dr. Lane: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANK FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.