LAURA: Good morning, everyone.

I am here with Kali Bronson.

She's the Bernalillo County Stormwater  Program Compliance Manager.

Thanks for   being here with me this morning.

KALI: Thanks for having me.

I'm   looking forward to this conversation.

LAURA: So, just to update everyone, there   was news late last night... thanks to Jessica Dyer  at the Albuquerque Journal for staying up late and   covering the City Council meeting.

So, last night  the Albuquerque City Council overrode Mayor Tim   Keller's veto of the Council's earlier overturn  of the Clean and Green Retail Ordinance.

So,   what that means in a nutshell is that the  city's plastic bag ban is is dead.

Now,   you know, which is kind of weird, seeing as how  so many other cities across the United States   have been moving forward with their bans.

But, you  know, it also might make a little bit of sense,   as the fossil fuel industry is really pushing  hard to find new uses for their products.

So,   we're going to have some, we're going to have  some coverage coming up in the coming weeks   and months looking more specifically at plastics  and the fossil fuel industry.

But, this morning,   we're here to talk about plastics and plastic  bags that end up in our city's waterways.

So,   Kali, thanks for being here.

Can you talk  a little bit, first, about your job and   your department and what you do?

KALI: Yeah, thanks Laura.

Yeah,   I work for Bernalillo County.

I am, as you  said, the Stormwater Program Compliance Manager.

And, my job essentially is to oversee compliance  with the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA   permit, that protects stormwater quality.

So,  it's through the NPDES program, or non-point   discharge elimination system, all those good,  big acronyms.

And we have a bit of a unique   permit here in the Middle Rio Grande, it's  watershed, based rather than by jurisdictional   boundaries.

And, it encourages cooperation  between the entities that are covered under   this permit.

So, there are lots of areas where  Bernalillo County works with other entities,   like the city of Albuquerque, amazing, the  Flood Control Authority and several others.

And,   we work together and cooperate to meet permit,  to meet these permit requirements.

One of the   requirements, I think, that into that, that  applies specifically to this conversation   we're having today is what they call a floatable  requirement.

Floatables are, you know, trash.

So,   it's your plastic bags, your cups, your food  waste materials and other debris and the permit   wants that, they essentially first want us to have  a control program that controls sources of it.

So,   source control keeping it out of the storm  water, first, is obviously the easiest way   to keep it clean.

And then, secondarily,  structural controls to address what does   get into the stormwater.

And so, that particular  permit requirement, I think is applicable to this,   to this discussion, in this issue.

LAURA: So, that photo behind you...   can you describe what we're seeing there?

KALI: So that is a storm water outfall.

I believe   this one belongs to the City of Albuquerque, but  the way the stormwater systems work in our area,   like in the Greater Albuquerque Metro Area.

We  have a lot of interconnected, there are places   that are unincorporated Bernalillo County, places  of the City of Albuquerque, places that America,   the Flood Control Authority, you know, belongs  to them and they all interlink.

And so, they,   we go in, you know, go to Bernalillo County goes  into the city then goes into America, that goes   into the County and goes back out right.

So, even  though this picture, it is, it's very complicated,   the systems are all tangled up together.

So, this  particular outfall, it belongs to the city, but   it likely has inputs from lots of different  entities that are covered under this permit.

And so, this outfall goes directly to the Rio  Grande and what you are seeing is there's a   bit of a screen on there and it's caught  some of the plastic bags.

And there are,   and I'll duck out here.

We can, there are a lot  of plastic bags hanging on there and plastic bags   tend to be one of the biggest contributors to  plastic solutions along with cups, polystyrene,   you know, packaging, all sorts of plastics  that we have in our, in our stream of waste.

LAURA: So, a couple of weeks ago the  Water Protection Advisory Board wrote   to Albuquerque officials, urging the city council  to reconsider its earlier repeal of the ordinance.

And, in that letter, they wrote that the city  collects annually, or annually the city collects   and disposes of about five semi truckloads of  plastic bags from drains.

And they wrote that   that doesn't include the plastic bags that are  collected from drains by other entities.

Is that   an accurate picture of the scale of this waste?

KALI: Yeah, so we, all of the entities that have   storm water systems, we clean them out.

We have to  collect this waste and we all track it as part of   regulations under this permit.

And that's  pretty accurate, you know.

A large portion   of the material that's collected is sediments and  other things like that, but, you know, plastics   are a big part of that debris.

The trash portion  of it.

So, plastic bags, cups, water bottles,   packaging... all of that is, is there.

And then,  it breaks down and so even though a large portion   of sediments, you may have a lot of what we call  micro-plastics in there, because those plastics   break down over time when they're exposed to  sunlight and become smaller pieces.

So that,   that becomes part of that waste stream as  well.

That gets into, it gets into our rivers.

LAURA: Can you talk about that a little  bit more.

You know, we see, you know that,   like the visual behind you, it's very obvious.

We see plastic bags stuck to cactus and fences   and all over the place, but what about those...  what about those bits that we can't necessarily   see?

What's the problem with those?

KALI: So, those plastics... so,   when plastics start breaking down, they also  they leak out toxins in there.

They're various   types of toxins.

It depends on the type of  plastic.

There are lots of different chemicals,   but, we know that a lot of them really impact  human and wildlife health.

And they're linked   to, you know, cancers and doctrine disruptors  and hormonal disruptions, and all, you know,   there's all sorts of things that we've really,  we've linked these toxins in plastics too.

And so,   that gets into the water.

It gets in when it  becomes smaller pieces.

Animals can easily eat it.

The real big problem with that, obviously, there's  some toxins in there, but also those, their   bodies, we can't digest plastic.

So, what ends  up happening is those plastics just get lodged in   their digestive system and they're stuck in there.

And so, if you've got a lot of micro-plastics   and it's, you know, floating around in the water,  it becomes part of, you know, what they eat,   you know, unintentionally.

Ad that can be a really  big problem too and then again those microplastics   can, it takes, you know, 10 to, I don't know, 100  years to decompose, but it never... plastics don't   completely decompose ever.

So, you  constantly have this, essentially the source   within our waters, when it gets in there.

LAURA: So, I'm, I feel like our our city's plastic   bag ban was complicated, because it was passed in  2019.

But then, it was kind of pulled back because   of the pandemic and just so much uncertainty at  the beginning of the pandemic, in particular.

But,   do you have a sense of how something like  the city's plastic bag ban can reduce   this waste stream that you're having to deal with?

KALI: Yeah, I think you can look... there are   studies that have been done in other cities that  have had plastic bag bans.

And so, for example,   the city of San Jose saw a reduction in  plastic bag, litter, from what had been 12   of their floatables or their, their  trash debris in 2010, to 4 in 2012,   just from having that plastic bag ban.

And, that's  considerable and we're seeing that in other,   we're seeing that in other places.

Bay area has  done a lot of studies.

You can look at those,   but a lot of the places that are, that have these  bans, we do see a, you know, significant reduction   in plastic waste.

And plastic bags are transported  more easily, as well, because not just, they,   they can go through the wind, like you said.

We  see them in trees, you see them stuck on cactus.

So, they get blown around.

They get into our  waterways, even if they don't get trapped in our   stormwater system.

They move, they move a lot.

LAURA: So, in that letter that I mentioned   earlier, the advisory board also, you  know, mentioned that because of this waste,   it could prevent the city from complying with  federal clean water standards.

You know, what   happens if Albuquerque, or, you know, in the state  or what happens if we don't comply with those   federal clean water standards, right?

KALI: So, if we don't comply, if the EPA   assesses our efforts in complying  with this permit and they find them to   not be sufficient or adequate, they  can fine us and those fines can be,   yeah, I don't remember off the top of my head,  but it can be tens of thousand s of dollars   a day, until the entity comes into compliance.

So,  there's significant fines that can really impact,   they can really impact financial viability abuse  program.

So, rather than spending money on fines,   we could be spending money on solutions.

LAURA: Yeah, it's just been so interesting   to watch this whole debate play  out over plastic bags in some,   and with respect, to some of the anti-plastic bag  ban people, they framed it in terms of, you know,   consumers should have the freedom to choose  that.

This is an issue of personal freedoms,   but I can't help but feel like there's all these,  you know, forgive the play on words here, but all   these downstream impacts that, that are really  pretty remarkable and potentially expensive.

Do you have any sense of, without a plastic  bag ban in place, what some of the other   solutions might be, because people can make their  individual choices, but clearly there needs to be,   there needs to be government incentives or  government action and system-wide change.

I know that isn't your, your job, but I'm  curious, you know, what you think can be done?

KALI: Yeah, and I think that's interesting.

So, in terms of, you know, that perspective,   you know... going back again to my job and  making sure that the county is in compliance   with this stormwater, this permit to  protect stormwater quality, as I said,   it's a watershed-based permit.

So, we're looking  at, rather than jurisdictional lines, every time   we go in and out of the city or the other flood  control authorities, we're approaching this   as a bigger system, right?

We're looking at it  systematically, rather than cut into pieces,   and so, and I think that the same thing can be  said for this, you know, the plastic bag ban.

The   county has one.

So, within unincorporated county  areas, we do have a plastic bag ban.

It's really   helpful to have that, you know, watershed-wide.

So that, we can reduce it, there are other,   you know, issues that we do have to look at.

It's  obviously not going to solve everything to have   a plastic bag ban.

There are lots of other waste  streams, like I said, water bottles and, you know,   polystyrene and, you know, plastic containers,  like all, you know, everything we get, we buy   in the stores these days are covered in plastic.

So, those plastics are in lots of other things and   then, you know, we've got the homeless population,  which, when we get encampments, can really impact,   you know, these people are trying to figure  out how to get by, but they end up being a   lot of detritus, a lot of debris that gets in the  stormwater system.

So, you know, larger systematic   solutions need to be looked at as well, impact,  you know, impacting homelessness, trying to   reduce that, trying to help that bat will in turn  impact stormwater quality, because that does have   an outsized impact.

I think on it and then, you  know, that a lot of these entities, as I said,   the floatables control program, they want us  to first focus on source controls, but they   also look at structural control.

So, there are  things that we can put into place.

So, example,   these bars do catch those plastic bags at least  some of them.

Certainly doesn't catch all of them   and we have what are called trash racks in some of  our storm sewer systems, that help collect those   materials.

But then, that costs us, you know.

You  have to have foods that go out and maintain it and   if you're getting a lot of it, it takes more care,  more maintenance, more work.

So, people may choose   to use or not use plastic bags, but the cost of  all of this trash, it really comes out in what we   pay, you know, our governmental agencies in those  taxes to keep this clean, and to keep them in   compliance with these permits for drinking water.

LAURA: It can seem the whole issue of plastic   bags can seem so straightforward, like just  a choice you make at the grocery store, but   thank you so much for helping us understand  the the bigger implications and, kind of,   you know, the system-wide impacts and  consequences.

It's really helpful.

It's helpful for me to think, you know, kind of  more watershed based and even, like you mentioned,   about homeless encampments.

That is something  that I've heard councilors bring up, that,   you know people who are unhoused need the  convenience of plastic bags.

And while that   might be true, I think you're, you know, what  you said is a reminder that we have these sort of   bigger issues that we need to address and  to, hopefully, you know, make things better   moving forward for the environment and for  people as well.

So, Kali, thank you so much for   joining us this morning.

I really appreciate this  conversation and the whole issue of stormwater is   so interesting and hopefully we can talk again  about some of the, some of the other issues   involving stormwater in the city as well.

KALI: Thank you, Laura.

It was a pleasure   to be here.

LAURA: Thanks.