>> Laura: ERICA GIES, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU JOINING ME TODAY.

>> Erica: THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S A REAL PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: SO I'VE BEEN LOOKING FORWARD TO READING YOUR BOOK SINCE I SAW ON TWITTER A LONG TIME AGO THAT YOU WERE WORKING ON IT.

IT'S TITLED: 'WATER ALWAYS WINS, THRIVING IN AN AGE OF DROUGHT AND DELUGE.'

AND I FEEL LIKE THAT TITLE IS ESPECIALLY RELEVANT FOR PEOPLE THIS SUMMER.

WHETHER YOU'RE IN PAKISTAN OR SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO, WE'RE ALL GRAPPLING WITH THESE SORTS OF BIG FLUCTUATIONS.

SO I'M VERY EXCITED TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS BOOK.

IN THE BOOK, YOU WRITE ABOUT WHAT YOU CALL THE SLOW WATER MOVEMENT.

WHAT IS THAT?

>> Erica: ALL AROUND THE WORLD, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT I CALL WATER DETECTIVES, AND THESE ARE HYDROLOGISTS, ECOLOGISTS, LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTS, URBAN PLANNERS, HISTORICAL ECOLOGISTS, AND THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT WATER IN A BIT OF A DIFFERENT WAY, AND THEY'RE ASKING, WHAT DOES WATER WANT?

BASICALLY, WHAT THEY HAVE DETERMINED IS THAT WHAT WATER WANTS IS A RETURN OF ITS SLOW PHASES.

SO THESE ARE WETLAND, FLOOD PLAINS, HIGH ALTITUDE FORESTS.

AND I DON'T THINK WE REALLY REALIZE THE CUMULATIVE IMPACT WE'VE HAD.

WE'VE ACTUALLY FILLED IN OR DRAINED 87% OF THE WORLD'S WETLANDS, AND WE'VE INTERVENED ON TWO-THIRDS OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST RIVERS.

THE AREA OF LAND COVERED BY PAVEMENT IN OUR CITIES HAS DOUBLED JUST SINCE 1992.

SO IN ALL OF THESE WAYS, OUR DEVELOPMENT IS PREVENTING WATER FROM ENJOYING THE SLOW PHASES WHERE IT INTERACTS WITH THE LAND, IT SEEPS UNDERGROUND, AND THAT DOES MANY THINGS.

IT ABSORBS FLOODS.

IT STORES WATER LOCALLY FOR LATER.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO SUPPORT BIODIVERSITY, OTHER FORMS OF LIFE, AND THERE'S ALSO A CARBON STORAGE COMPONENT.

SO SLOW WATER PROJECTS ARE WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE WORKING ON, AND BASICALLY, THEY INVOLVE TRYING TO RETURN THESE PHASES TO SOME EXTENT TO WATER.

AND THEY ARE TYPICALLY DISTRIBUTED ACROSS THE LANDSCAPE THROUGHOUT THE WATERSHED AS OPPOSED TO OUR KIND OF CENTRALIZED WATER INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE'VE COME TO KNOW.

THEY WORK WITH WATER IN NATURAL CYCLES RATHER THAN TRYING TO CONTROL THEM.

AND THERE'S OFTEN A COMMUNITY PHASING ASPECT.

IN SOME PLACES, THE COMMUNITY IS ACTUALLY ACTIVELY MANAGING THE WATER AND THE NATURAL SYSTEM IN SOME WAY.

IN OTHER PLACES, LIKE PARTS OF THE U.S., MAYBE THERE'S MORE OF AN EDUCATIONAL COMPONENT.

LIKE THERE ARE PLACES IN ARIZONA WHERE WATER IS RECHARGED AND THAT BECOMES SORT OF A -- RECHARGE MEANS PUTTING IT ON THE LAND SO IT CAN MOVE UNDERGROUND.

AND THOSE TEND TO BE ATTRACTANTS FOR WILDLIFE AND HUMAN PEOPLE TO RECREATE.

SO MAYBE THERE ARE SIGNS THAT EXPLAIN TO THE COMMUNITY WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE.

SO THERE ARE DIFFERENT LEVELS OF COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT.

>> Laura: SO WHETHER IT'S SORT OF THE CENTRALIZED INFRASTRUCTURE OR PAVING OVER OF WETLANDS, DEVELOPMENT OF WETLANDS, YOU EXPLAIN IN THE BOOK THAT THIS 'US FIRST' STANCE HASN'T DONE HUMANITY ANY FAVORS, AND HOW IN OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH WATER, PRIVILEGING OURSELVES REALLY ISN'T WORKING.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT?

>> Erica: WE HAVE A TENDENCY IN THE DOMINANT CULTURE TO KIND OF DO THE SINGLE-MINDED PROBLEM SOLVING.

SO, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE FLOODS HAPPENING, SO, OH, WE SHOULD BUILD A LEVY OR WE SHOULD BUILD A SEA WALL.

OR WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF WATER, SO WE SHOULD BUILD A BIG DAM AND BRING IN WATER FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE.

BUT THESE SINGLE-MINDED APPROACHES IGNORE THE SYSTEMS IN WHICH WATER FUNCTIONS, THE ECOSYSTEMS.

AND WATER HAS RELATIONSHIPS WITH SOIL AND ROCK, MICROBES, BEAVERS, HUMANS, AND IF WE IGNORE THE SYSTEMS, THEN WE CREATE ALL KINDS OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES THAT WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE MAIN MESSAGES OF THIS BOOK.

YES, CLIMATE CHANGE IS CAUSING WATER EXTREMES, IT'S CAUSING THESE REALLY INTENSE RAINSTORMS AND REALLY LONG INTENSE DROUGHTS, SO I THINK IT'S GREAT THAT THAT MESSAGE IS GETTING OUT TO THE PUBLIC.

BUT ONE THING THAT I'M NOT SEEING IS THAT, IN FACT, OUR DEVELOPMENT CHOICES HAVE A LOT TO DO WITH THE DISASTERS THAT WE ARE EXPERIENCING FROM THESE WATER EXTREMES.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN A WAY THAT'S GOOD NEWS, BECAUSE IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONDUCT OUR DEVELOPMENT DIFFERENTLY, TO BETTER WORK WITH WATER TO REDUCE THE IMPACTS ON US.

>> Laura: YEAH.

YOU WRITE ABOUT HOW THE DOMINANT CULTURE HAS MOVED AWAY SO MUCH FROM OBSERVATIONS OF WATER AND UNDERSTANDING HOW WATER WORKS AND MOVES AND WHAT IT WANTS.

I'M CURIOUS WHY YOU THINK THAT HAPPENED.

LIKE, HOW QUICKLY DID WE MOVE AWAY FROM OBSERVING WATER AND LIVING WITH IT TOWARD WHAT WE DO NOW?

>> Erica: I THINK THERE'S REALLY A COLONIAL FOOTPRINT IN THAT, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE IN PLACES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE LONG LIVED CLOSE TO THE LAND AND RELIED UPON IT FOR EVERYTHING, THEY REALLY HAD TO UNDERSTAND HOW IT WORKED AND HOW TO MANAGE IT SUSTAINABLY AND HOW TO LIVE WITHIN THE MEANS OF WHAT THAT LANDSCAPE COULD PROVIDE.

BUT WITH COLONIALISM, YOU HAD EUROPEANS, PRIMARILY, GOING TO PLACES THAT WERE NEW TO THEM AND THEN TRYING TO ASSERT THEIR WAY OF DOING THINGS ON TOP OF THE LOCAL LANDSCAPE WITHOUT REALLY UNDERSTANDING IT.

AND THERE WAS DEFINITELY A KIND OF OTHERING OF CERTAINLY THE PEOPLE THEY ENCOUNTERED THERE, BUT ALSO, THE NATURAL SYSTEMS.

IT WAS KIND OF AN US AGAINST THEM IDEA.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ROOTS OF THIS THAT GO BACK FARTHER TO THE ENLIGHTENMENT AND THE IDEA OF THE GREAT CHAIN OF BEING, WHICH PRIORITIZES HUMANS ABOVE OTHER FORMS OF LIFE, AND EVEN GOING BACK TO THE BOOK OF GENESIS WITH THE SEPARATION OF HUMANS FROM NATURE, WHICH ISN'T TO -- YOU KNOW, THAT'S IMPORTANT JUST BECAUSE THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION IS WHAT THE COLONIZERS KIND OF IMPORTED AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT -- I MEAN, THERE ARE CHRISTIANS WHO BELIEVE IN CREATION CARE.

SO IT'S JUST KIND OF THE TRADITION OF THAT AND HOW IT HAS BEEN INTERPRETED IN THE DOMINANT CULTURE.

>> Laura: YEAH, WE CERTAINLY SEE THAT HERE IN NEW MEXICO WITH OUR WATER INFRASTRUCTURE AND CERTAINLY OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH WATER.

SO I FEEL LIKE THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF A HARD TOPIC TO TALK ABOUT, NEVER MIND PLAN FOR ON A LARGE SCALE, BUT YOU WRITE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW WE MAY NEED TO RETREAT FROM SOME ARID PLACES AS THEY BECOME EVEN DRIER.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE WE, AS A CULTURE, AS A OCIETY, HAVE THE CAPACITY FOR THIS SORT OF ADAPTATION BEFORE IT REACHES, LIKE, A CRISIS MODE?

>> Erica: THAT IS A REALLY HARD QUESTION.

I'D LIKE TO THINK WE DO.

THERE'S NOT A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT WE ARE VERY GOOD AT THAT.

WE TEND TO BE QUITE REACTIVE.

BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE WRITING ABOUT THIS.

THERE'S A RESEARCHER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF DELAWARE NAMED A.R.

SIDERS WHO'S DONE WORK ON MANAGED RETREAT.

SHE'S LOOKING MORE AT COASTAL RETREAT AND SEA LEVEL RISE, BUT IT CAN APPLY ANYWHERE THERE ARE WATER ISSUES.

I THINK IN THE WEST, THERE HAVE BEEN SOME ATTEMPTS TO PREDICATE DEVELOPMENT UPON WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS WATER AVAILABLE FOR THAT NEW DEVELOPMENT.

SO CALIFORNIA HAS HAD A LAW LIKE THAT SINCE 2003, BUT THERE ARE PRETTY EASY LOOPHOLES AROUND THAT, SO IT HASN'T ACTUALLY FUNCTIONED AS INTENDED.

I DO THINK THAT THERE MAY BE SORT OF A NATURAL MIGRATION TO MORE WATER RICH AREAS AS THESE WATER INTENSITIES INCREASE, OR WATER SCARCITY INCREASES.

HOWEVER, IN BOTH THE SOUTHWEST AND CALIFORNIA, THE VAST MAJORITY OF WATER GOES TO AGRICULTURE, AND SOME OF THAT AGRICULTURE IS HISTORIC.

YOU KNOW, GROWING ALFALFA OR COTTON WITH VAST QUANTITIES OF WATER IN THE DESERT.

AND PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN USED TO THAT, BUT THAT ISN'T GOING TO BE TENABLE GOING FORWARD.

SO I WOULDN'T SAY, YOU KNOW, LOTS OF PEOPLE NEED TO LEAVE THE SOUTHWEST OR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, WE JUST NEED TO TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK AT HOW WE HAVE BEEN ALLOCATING OUR WATER AND PROBABLY CHANGE THAT.

OF COURSE, GROWING FOOD IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD GET RID OF THAT.

BUT THERE ARE MANY, MANY THINGS WE CAN DO TO SAVE A LOT OF WATER THAT HAVE SO FAR BEEN POLITICALLY UNTENABLE, AND WE NEED TO START HAVING THAT VERY SERIOUS CONVERSATION.

>> Laura: ERICA GIES, I LOVED YOUR BOOK.

I THINK LOTS OF PEOPLE IN OUR AUDIENCE WILL LOVE IT, AS WELL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME TODAY.

>> Erica: THANKS FOR HAVING ME, IT'S BEEN SO FUN.