Laura: OUR LAND IS BACK.

I AM LAURA PASKUS AND THIS  MONTH WE ARE FEATURING JULIA  BERNAL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE PUEBLO ACTION ALLIANCE,  SHE AND I TALK ABOUT WATER AND RIVERS, WHICH ARE ON  EVERYONE'S MINDS RIGHT NOW AS WE FACE HUGE CHALLENGES IN NEW  MEXICO.

AND SHE SHARES WHAT IT MEANS  TO THINK ABOUT WATER FROM A PUEBLO FEMINIST PERSPECTIVE.

SHE ALSO TALKS ABOUT LAND BACK AND WATER BACK AND WE TAKE A  DEEP DIVE INTO WHAT THESE MOVEMENTS MEAN FOR THE HEALTH  OF THE WHOLE LANDSCAPE AND ALL OF OR COMMUNITIES.

JULIA BERNAL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME ON NEW MEXICO IN  FOCUS.

Bernal:   THANK YOU.

Laura: I HAVE HEARD YOU  TALK ABOUT PUEBLO FEMINIST PERSPECTIVE ON NEW MEXICO'S  RIVERS AND WATER.

I WAS WONDERING CAN YOU TALK A  LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THAT IS AND HOW THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM  HOW WE TREAT OUR RIVERS TODAY?

Bernal: SURE.

WELL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON TODAY.

SO, I HAVE ESSENTIALLY BEEN TRYING TO PUSH THIS NARRATIVE  OF THE NEED FOR A PUEBLO FEMINIST PERSPECTIVE IN WATER  MANAGEMENT SPECIFICALLY.

AND THIS IS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,  THROUGH A PUEBLO PERSPECTIVE, SPEAKING FROM MY OWN PERSONAL  EXPERIENCE, FEM, WOMEN, ARE TYPICALLY THE CARRIERS OF  WATER.

THEY HOLD WATER.

AND THEY ARE ASSOCIATED WITH WATER AND OUR UNDERSTANDING OF  WATER IS FAR GREATER, I BELIEVE, THAN WHAT THE  DOMINANT PARADIGM IS OFFERING TO US, WHICH IS TYPICALLY  THROUGH, YOU KNOW, WHITE MALE PERSPECTIVE.

AND ESPECIALLY HERE IN THE SOUTHWEST ALONG THE MIDDLE RIO  GRANDE, RIO GRANDE BASIN, PUEBLO PEOPLE HAVE BEEN  STEWARDING AND INHABITING AND BEING IN RELATION WITH OUR  WATERWAYS SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL AND WOMEN PLAY AND  FEM PLAY A VERY VITAL ROLE IN THAT RELATIONSHIP.

WE VIEW OUR WATERWAYS AS MOTHERS.

YOU KNOW, THIS INNATELY GIVES US THE SPIRITUAL AND INHERENT  RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR WATERS.

SO, WE UNDERSTAND WATER IN  THAT WAY.

SO I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT,  YOU KNOW, NOW ESPECIALLY SINCE WE ARE IN CLIMATE CRISIS,  CLIMATE -- IT HAS BEEN CHANGING HISTORICALLY OVER  TIME BUT IT IS RAPIDLY CHANGING NOW AND IMPACTING HOW  WE LIVE WITH THE COMMUNITY AND HOW WE ARE LIVING WITH OUR  COMMUNITIES.

SO, THERE NEEDS TO BE RADICAL  AND DRASTIC CHANGE IN HOW WE MANAGE OUR WATER AND HOW WE  MANAGE THE WATERSHED.

SO, I JUST REALLY BELIEVE THAT  IF THERE ARE MORE FEMINIST PERSPECTIVES, PUEBLO FEMINIST  PERSPECTIVES, IN WATER CONVERSATIONS, MANAGEMENT  STRATEGIES WOULD DEFINITELY SHIFT.

Laura: LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE HEARD ABOUT LAND BACK.

I AM INTERESTED IN LEARNING MORE ABOUT WATER BACK AND WHAT  THAT MEANS HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

Bernal: I MEAN, LAND BACK  IS A GLOBAL MOVEMENT AND IT IS NOT ABOUT OBTAINING LIKE  PROPERTY BACK.

IT IS NOT ABOUT BEING LIKE  THIS WAS OUR LAND AND WE NEED TO HAVE LIKE THE PROPERTY  OWNER RIGHTS OF IT.

IT IS MORE ABOUT THE  RESURGENCE OF INDIGENOUS STEWARDSHIP AND MANAGEMENT  BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE DO AND OUR PERSPECTIVE IS  BENEFICIAL FOR EVERYONE.

THE SAME THING WITH WATER, SO,  WHEN WE WERE THINKING ABOUT WHAT WATER BACK MEANT TO US,  WE THOUGHT ABOUT HOW TIED THE LAND IS TO WATER AND HOW  IMPORTANT WATER IS IN PUEBLO CULTURE.

I MEAN, A LOT OF OUR CEREMONIES AND SONGS AND  DANCES REALLY DO RESOLVE AROUND SPEAKING TO OUR WATER  GODS AND ASKING FOR ABUNDANCE AND HEALTHY WATERSHEDS AND  HEALTHY COMMUNITIES.

THAT IS VERY CORE TO OUR WAYS  OF LIFE AND OUR WORLD VIEW.

SO, AGAIN, IF WE WERE TO HAVE  A RESURGENCE OF THAT INDIGENOUS IDENTITY IN HOW WE  MANAGE LAND AND WATER, IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL FOR  EVERYONE.

ALSO, JUST THAT WE NEED TO  SHIFT THE WAY WE LOOK AT WATER.

THE WATER TO US, THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE, THAT IS   OUR RIVER MOTHER.

AND SO THAT IS A REASON WHY IT IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO  REASSERT THAT PERSON HOOD, BECAUSE IF WE ASSERT A PERSON  HOOD ON OUR WATERWAYS WE PROBABLY WOULD TREAT HER A LOT  DIFFERENTLY, YOU KNOW.

WE PROBABLY HAVE A LOT MORE  RESPECT AND ACTS OF RECIPROCITY RATHER THAN  DAMNING IT AND ALLOCATING IT AND WASTING IT, EVEN.

SO, WATER BACK IS JUST REALLY THAT SAME SORT OF CONCEPT AS  LIKE WHAT DECOLONIZING IS.

I KNOW THAT IS A SPIN LATELY,  BUT OUR DEFINITION HAS BEEN REMOVAL OF ZERO CENTRIC  OCCUPATIONS AND IDEALS AND RESURGENCE OF INDIGENOUS  IDENTITY BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY THIS LANDSCAPE NEEDS TO BE  MANAGED.

AND, OF COURSE, HERE IN THE SOUTHWEST, YOU KNOW, WATER  SECURITY, WATER SCARCITY ARE REAL THINGS AND THEY WILL  CONTINUE TO BE VERY REAL THINGS AND SO IF THERE IS THE  OPPORTUNITY FOR PUEBLO PEOPLE TO RECLAIM THEIR OLD  MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES, WE MAY SEE THE HEALTH OF THE RIVER  LOOK A LOT BETTER THAN WAIT DOES NOW.

Laura: IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE SOMETIMES WHEN PEOPLE HEAR  LAND BACK OR WATER BACK, THEY GET LIKE REALLY DEFENSIVE AND  THINK ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF COLONIZING, BASICALLY LIKE  TAKING SOMETHING, KEEPING IT, BUT IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE WHAT  YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY  DIFFERENT FROM THAT, THAT IT IS LAND BACK AND WATER BACK IS  SOMETHING THAT BENEFITS LOTS OF PEOPLE, MANY PEOPLE,  EVERYONE.

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE  ABOUT THAT?

Bernal:   DECOLONIZING IS A VERY LONG PROCESS.

WE HAVE BEEN IN THIS PERIOD OF COLONIZATION, YOU KNOW, FOR  LIKE OVER 500 YEARS NOW.

SO, IT IS NOT ABOUT LIKE GOING  BACK IN TIME, YOU KNOW.

IT IS NOT ABOUT LIKE GOING  BACK IN TIME WHERE THERE WASN'T LIKE TECHNOLOGY OR  THERE WASN'T, YOU KNOW, THESE HUMAN ADVANCES.

BUT IT WAS A TIME WHERE THE LAND WAS VIEWED AS OUR EARTH  MOTHER, THE WATER WAS VIEWED AS OUR WATER MOTHER AND WE  TOOK WHAT WE NEEDED AND ALSO GAVE BACK.

SO, WE ARE ALSO NAVIGATING A FOREIGN LANGUAGE, ENGLISH.

SO, IN ORDER FOR US TO CONVEY THESE DECOLONIAL THOUGHTS IN  ENGLISH IS ALWAYS SOMETHING WE HAVE TO NAVIGATE.

LAND BACK AND WATER BACK HAVE BEEN TWO MOVEMENTS THAT SEEM  TO ALIGN WITH A LOT OF INDIGENOUS VALUES BUT ALSO  UPSET NONINDIGENOUS PEOPLE TOO.

SO, THERE IS, THEN AGAIN, NOW THERE IS THIS NEED FOR A  CONVERSATION AROUND, OR EVEN JUST CREATING SPACES, TO  REALLY THINK DEEPLY ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE COLONIZED.

AND WE ARE STILL EVEN, YOU KNOW, IN THOSE CONVERSATIONS  RIGHT NOW.

LIKE, WE DON'T HAVE THE  ANSWERS NOW.

THERE IS A LOT THAT NEEDS TO  BE UNDONE AND THERE IS A LOT THAT NEEDS TO BE LEARNED.

BUT, THE WAY THAT WATER IS, IT MOVES, IF IT IS STAGNANT ITS  QUALITY GETS REALLY POOR AND SO WE VIEW WATER AS A VERY  TRANSFORMATIVE PROCESS.

I MEAN OUR RIVER HAS BEEN  CHANGING SO MUCH OVER THE MILLENNIA AND WE NEED TO LOOK  AT THINGS IN THAT PERSPECTIVE TOO.

AND ALSO COME TO TERMS WITH THE FACT THAT WE AND I, WE MAY  NEVER SEE -- WE MIGHT NEVER SEE THAT CHANGE BUT AT LEAST  WE'RE TRYING TO CREATE SPACE AND AGAIN DEEP THINKING FOR  WHAT OUR FUTURES COULD POTENTIALLY LOOK LIKE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, WE HAVE THE  INHERENT BIRTH RIGHT TO JUST ENJOY OUR LANDSCAPE.

THAT IS THE ULTIMATE GOAL, I THINK.

AND INVITING OTHER NONINDIGENOUS PEOPLE TO ALSO  KNOW WHAT IT MEANS FOR THAT ENJOYMENT OF THE LANDSCAPE,  AGAIN, IT IS BENEFICIAL FOR EVERYBODY.

NOT JUST HUMANS, NONHUMAN RELATIVES AS WELL.

Laura: JULIA BERNAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH  ME TODAY, Bernal: THANK YOU SO MUCH.