>> Gene: FOR ALMOST 10 YEARS, THE U.S. SUPREME  COURT HAS BEEN MONITORING A DISAGREEMENT ON THE RIO  GRANDE BETWEEN NEW MEXICO AND TEXAS.

THE CASE COMES BACK TO AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN TWO  IRRIGATION DISTRICTS, ONE IN TEXAS, ONE IN NEW MEXICO,  SIGNED IN 2008 TO SHARE WATER AS DROUGHT GRIPPED THE  REGION AND ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR EMPTIED.

BUT THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO TOOK ISSUE WITH HOW MUCH  WATER WAS GOING TO TEXAS AND SUED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT  OVER THE DEAL.

TEXAS THEN FIRED BACK AND  SUED NEW MEXICO AND COLORADO.

NOW THAT 2013 SUIT IS STILL MAKING ITS WAY THROUGH THE  HIGH COURT.

RECENTLY NEW MEXICO  ANNOUNCED THAT NEW MEXICO, COLORADO AND TEXAS REACHED  AN HISTORIC AGREEMENT OVER THE RIO GRANDE BUT THE  FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HASN'T SIGNED OFF ON THAT  SETTLEMENT.

MEANWHILE FARMERS IN  SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO HAVE BEEN LEFT IN LIMBO.

THIS WEEK, OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS TALKS WITH SAMANTHA  BARNCASTLE, ATTORNEY FOR THE ELEPHANT BUTTE IRRIGATION  DISTRICT.

>> Laura: SAM BARNCASTLE,  THANKS FOR TALKING WITH ME ABOUT TEXAS V NEW MEXICO AND  COLORADO TODAY.

>> Barncastle: SURE.

>> WITH THIS LAWSUIT, THE SUPREME COURT LAWSUIT, TEXAS  ALLEGES THAT NEW MEXICO IS USING TOO MUCH WATER IN PART  DUE TO GROUNDWATER PUMPING WHICH IS TIED TO THE RIVER.

IS THAT KIND OF A FAIR SUMMARY OF THE CASE?

>> Barncastle: YEAH.

IT IS.

ESSENTIALLY TEXAS' CLAIMS ARE THAT THE GROUNDWATER  PUMPING TAKES AWAY FROM THE SURFACE SUPPLY AND SO THAT  DEPLETES PART OF THE TEXAS SUPPLY AND THEREFORE THERE  NEEDS TO BE SOME SORT OF ACCOUNTING FIX FOR IT.

>> Laura: SO, EVEN THOUGH THIS IS A STATE  DISAGREEMENT, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS INVOLVED, THE  STATES OF COLORADO, NEW MEXICO AND TEXAS.

ELEPHANT BUTTE IRRIGATION DISTRICT IS IN WHAT SEEMS TO  ME A VERY TOUGH SPOT.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN FOR US HOW  FARMERS IN THE ELEPHANT BUTTE IRRIGATION DISTRICTS  ARE PHYSICALLY IN NEW MEXICO BUT KIND OF CONSIDERED  COMPACT TEXAS WHEN IT COMES TO WATER?

>> Barncastle: YEAH.

SO, HISTORICALLY, THE RIO  GRANDE COMPACT WAS NEGOTIATED FOR THE PURPOSE  OF GETTING A HANDLE ON UPSTREAM DIVERSIONS THAT  WERE REDUCING THE FLOWS TO THE RIO GRANDE PROJECT IN  SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO, WEST TEXAS AND MEXICO.

AND, BASICALLY WHAT HAPPENED WAS THE PROJECT WAS HERE AND  IRRIGATION AS A SINGLE UNIT IN BOTH STATES WELL BEFORE  THE COMPACT CAME IN, SO WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THEY DIVIDED  UP THE WATER WAS THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE WAS CONSIDERED  COMPACT NEW MEXICO AND THEIR DELIVERY WAS AT ELEPHANT  BUTTE COMPACT TEXAS.

THE SPECIAL MASTER IN TEXAS  VERSUS NEW MEXICO HAS NOW RULED THAT THIS PARTICULAR  AREA, GEOGRAPHIC NEW MEXICO BUT FORMERLY WHAT WE CALL  COMPACT TEXAS, IS ACTUALLY STILL IN COMPACT NEW MEXICO  UNTIL YOU GET TO THE STATE LINE AND THEN COMPACT TEXAS  STARTS.

SO THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT  WAY OF LOOKING AT THINGS THAT HISTORICALLY NOBODY HAS  VIEWED THIS AREA OF THE WORLD IN THAT WAY.

IT WAS ALWAYS SORT OF THE EB AND COMPACT TEXAS BUT  GEOGRAPHIC NEW MEXICO AND NOW WE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE  OUT WHAT EXACTLY IT MEANS TO STILL BE IN COMPACT NEW  MEXICO EVEN THOUGH THE DELIVERY OBLIGATION IS ONLY  SPECIFICALLY TO ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR.

WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THAT MEANS BELOW THE  RESERVOIR.

>> Laura: SO WHAT HAS THIS  LAWSUIT AND THE DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THE STATES MEANT FOR  YOUR IRRIGATION DISTRICT?

>> Barncastle: A LOT OF  UNCERTAINTY, RIGHT.

WE DON'T KNOW ON ANY GIVEN  DAY WHAT ANY GIVEN STATE OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS GOING  TO BE SEEKING FROM US OR OTHER WATER USERS.

SO IT HAS JUST BROUGHT A LOT  OF UNCERTAINTY.

>> Laura: THERE WAS AN  IMPORTANT FILING THIS WEEK.

WHAT IS THE LATEST ON THAT  THAT YOU CAN TALK ABOUT?

>> Barncastle: SO, THAT IS A  DISQUALIFIER, BUT STUFF THAT I CAN TALK ABOUT IS SOMEWHAT  LIMITED.

THE FILING ON MONDAY,  NOVEMBER 14, WAS THE STATE'S NOTICE OF FILING A MOTION  AND SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS IN CAMERA.

SO, IN CONFIDENCE.

SO THEY ARE SEALED DOCUMENTS  THAT WERE FILED WITH THE SPECIAL MASTER REGARDING THE  STATE SETTLEMENT OF THE ISSUES WE WERE JUST  DISCUSSING.

THEY HAVE NOW PUT THOSE  DOCUMENTS IN SETTLEMENT AND CONSENT DECREE IN FRONT OF  THE JUDGE AND THEY'LL BE ASKING FOR HIS APPROVAL OF  IT.

>> Laura: I FEEL LIKE A LOT  OF TIMES WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THIS CASE, IT IS VERY  MUCH COUCHED IN TERMS OF IF NEW MEXICO WINS OR IF TEXAS  WINS.

IF NEW MEXICO WINS OR TEXAS  WINS, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE DISTRICT?

HOW DOES THE DISTRICT WIN OR LOSE?

>> Barncastle: I GUESS TO BEGIN, I WOULD SAY NOBODY  WINS IN WATER WARS, RIGHT.

THE ONLY WINNERS ARE THE  LAWYERS WHO CAN BILL ENDLESSLY FOR THE HOURS THAT  IT TAKES TO NEGOTIATE RESOLUTIONS.

AND COURTROOMS AND TRIALS DON'T RESOLVE WESTERN WATER  RULES.

THEY CHIP AWAY AT THE PIECES  THAT GO INTO RESOLVING THOSE ISSUES BUT THEY DON'T  RESOLVE THE ACTUAL PROBLEMS.

WHEN A COURT ENTERS AN  ORDER, WE ARE STILL GOING TO HAVE A DROUGHT AND CLIMATE  CHANGE.

WE ARE STILL GOING TO HAVE  SHORT WATER SUPPLY AND MORE DEMAND THAN WE CAN FULFILL.

WE ARE STILL GOING TO NEED TO EAT FOOD AND WE ALSO NEED  TO HAVE DRINKING WATER IN OUR CITIES.

IT WAS ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS WHERE NOBODY  WINS.

WHAT HAPPENS OUT OF THIS  SITUATION, WELL, PEOPLE CERTAINLY WIN IN WHEN THERE  IS A SETTLEMENT AND THERE IS NOT MORE LITIGATION.

THE PROBLEM IS, YOU'RE GOING TO WIN SOME AND YOU'RE GOING  TO LOSE SOME ALL IN THE SAME FELL SWOOP, RIGHT.

SO DETERMINING WHEN AND HOW TO APPROACH THOSE ISSUES AND  COLLABORATIVELY VERSUS LITIGATION MEANS DEAL WITH  THEM IS THE TRICK, BUT I WOULD SAY NOBODY WINS IN  THESE SITUATIONS UNTIL A COLLABORATIVE APPROACH IS  FOUND.

>> Laura: IN OCTOBER, NEW  MEXICO ANNOUNCED, I AM JUST GOING TO READ THIS, IT IS  FROM THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, THE STATES OF TEXAS,  NEW MEXICO AND COLORADO HAVE REACHED AN HISTORIC  AGREEMENT AFTER NINE YEARS OF LITIGATION THAT IF  FINALIZED WILL RESOLVE THE MASSIVE LEGAL DISPUTES  BETWEEN STATES OVER HOW WATER FROM THE RIO GRANDE IS  DIVIDED BETWEEN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO AND WEST TEXAS.

WAS THAT ANNOUNCEMENT A SURPRISE TO THE IRRIGATION  DISTRICT?

>> Barncastle: WELL, YOU  KNOW, YOU HAVE TO  UNDERSTAND, WE WERE IN ABOUT 11 MONTHS OF NEGOTIATIONS AT  THIS POINT IN THIS ROUND.

SO, THERE HAVE BEEN PREVIOUS  ROUNDS OF MEDIATION AND NEGOTIATIONS.

SO, THIS PAST YEAR, STARTING LAST DECEMBER AFTER TRIAL,  THE INITIAL ROUND OF TRIAL ENDED, WE IMMEDIATELY WENT  INTO NEGOTIATIONS AND THOSE NEGOTIATIONS INCLUDED NOT  ONLY THE PARTIES BUT ALSO ALL OF THE AMICUS WHO ARE  PARTICIPATING.

ALL THE AMICI WERE BROUGHT  IN TO CONSULT ESSENTIALLY.

THE IRRIGATION DISTRICTS  WERE BROUGHT IN AT A DIFFERENT LEVEL AND OUR  TECHNICAL EXPERTS WERE ACTUALLY PART OF THE  COMMITTEE THAT WAS WORKING ON SOME OF THESE TECHNICAL  ISSUES THAT THE STATES ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, MOVED  FORWARD WITH.

AND WE CAN'T GIVE DETAILS  ABOUT HOW ALL OF THAT PLAYED OUT BUT WHAT BASICALLY WE  ARE LOOKING AT IS A SETTLEMENT THAT THE STATES  BELIEVE RESOLVES THE ISSUES AND THAT DEALS WITH EXACTLY  WHAT WE WERE DISCUSSING IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS  INTERVIEW, EQUITABLY APPORTIONING THE WATER BELOW  THE RESERVOIR ACCORDING TO THE WAY THE STATES BELIEVE  IT SHOULD BE APPORTIONED NOW THAT WE KNOW NEW MEXICO HAS  AN INTEREST DOWN THERE WHERE WE PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT THEY  DIDN'T AND WORKING OFF OF COURT ORDERS BUT ALSO  WORKING OFF NEGOTIATIONS TOO.

SO, THEY BELIEVE THEY FOUND RESOLUTION.

WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

EVEN IF THAT IS THE RESOLUTION THAT THE COURT  ACCEPTS, THERE IS STILL GOING TO BE A TON OF WORK  AFTER THIS.

IT IS NOT OVER.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

SO, YOU TOUCHED ON THIS  ALREADY.

YOU MENTIONED DROUGHT AND  CLIMATE CHANGE.

I THINK IT IS SAFE TO SAY  THAT ELEPHANT BUTTE RESERVOIR PROBABLY WON'T  CONSISTENTLY REACH THE LEVELS THAT IT DID  HISTORICALLY.

AND I AM CURIOUS, YOU KNOW,  YOUR THOUGHTS ON HOW TO ADAPT AND WHAT THE FUTURE  COULD LOOK LIKE.

>> Barncastle: YEAH, SO,  IMPORTANT IN THAT IS THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT A GROUP OF  FARMERS WHO ARE NOT CLIMATE CHANGE DENIERS, RIGHT.

THEY ARE PLANNERS.

THEY ARE PLANNING AHEAD.

THEY ARE ASSUMING THAT YOU ARE CORRECT, WE ARE NOT  GOING TO SEE THE SAME CYCLES WE HAVE HISTORICALLY SEEN.

RIGHT NOW, WE ARE SEEING THE SAME CYCLES WE HAVE  HISTORICALLY SEEN WITHIN THE RIO GRANDE PROJECT BASED ON  THE DATA WE HAVE.

IT IS CERTAINLY LOOKING  WORSE BUT WE HAVE OTHER REASONS TO PUT INTO FOR  THAT.

POPULATION GROWTH, GROWTH OF  DOMESTIC, MUNICIPAL, INDUSTRIAL COMMERCIAL WATERS  BEYOND WHAT WAS HISTORICALLY IN PLACE IN THE LAST  DROUGHT.

FARMERS STILL RELATIVELY  USING THE SAME AMOUNT OF WATER.

CROPS GENERALLY TAKE  SO MUCH, RIGHT.

WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD THE SAME  AMOUNT OF IRRIGATION.

SO, WE ARE LOOKING AT AN  INCREASE IN SUPPLY SO WE HAVE GOT TO FIGURE OUT HOW  TO CREATE WATER ESSENTIALLY.

AND YOU KNOW, OF COURSE  ENGINEERS, HYDROLOGISTS, GEOLOGISTS ANYONE IN SCIENCE  WILL TELL YOU, YOU DON'T CREATE WATER.

WELL, I SAY WRONG.

RIGHT.

WHAT YOU CAN DO IS DO BETTER AT WHAT YOU'RE ALREADY DOING  AND DO MORE OF IT.

WE AREN'T DOING WHAT WE NEED  TO TO LEVERAGE THE STORM WATER BELOW THE RESERVOIRS.

WE CAPTURE EVERYTHING ABOVE THE LARGE RESERVOIRS BUT WE  NEED MORE FLOOD CONTROL, STORM WATER MANAGEMENT BELOW  THE RESERVOIRS.

THAT IS MAKING WATER.

WE NEED COLLABORATIVE SOLUTIONS WHERE COMMUNITIES,  WHOLE COMMUNITIES, SMALL VILLAGES, COLONIAS,  ENVIRONMENTAL INTERESTS, IRRIGATION DISTRICTS, LARGE  CITIES, STATE GOVERNMENT, FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, ALL COME  TOGETHER TO DO WHAT I AM CALLING RE-RECLAIM THE WEST.

THE DAYS OF THE LARGE STORAGE RESERVOIRS AND SNOW  PACK AND RUNOFF ARE PROBABLY BEHIND US.

AT LEAST  INITIALLY IT IS LOOKING THAT WAY.

SO, WHAT CAN WE DO?

WELL, WE RE-RECLAIM THE WEST  LIKE WE DID THE FIRST TIME BUT WE ADAPT AND WE ADJUST  TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING, WHICH IS SHORTER, INTENSE STORMS  THAT DUMP A TON OF WATER IN ISOLATED AREAS, PRETTY  TYPICAL AREAS.

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME  ARROYOS.

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME DRAWS, RIGHT?

SO, PLACE INFRASTRUCTURE IN THOSE AREAS TO PROTECT  HABITAT TO PROTECT THE RIVERS TO PROTECT  COMMUNITIES AND TO ULTIMATELY INCREASE  IRRIGATION SUPPLY.

SO WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO  DO MORE WITH LESS AND EVERYBODY IS GOING TO HAVE  TO COME TO THE TABLE TO DO IT.