>> Lou: THAT INTERVIEW WITH EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR IS COMING UP IN A LITTLE OVER 15 MINUTES.

RIGHT NOW, WE LOOK INSIDE A NEW BOOK FROM AUTHOR REBECCA CLARREN, CALLED THE COST OF FREE LAND, JEWS, LAKOTA AND AN AMERICAN INHERITANCE.

IT WAS PUBLISHED LAST WEEK.

CLARREN'S BOOK OFFERS AN INTIMATE LOOK AT THE LONG-TERM IMPACTS OF THE HOMESTEAD ACT THROUGH THE LENS OF HER JEWISH FAMILY WHO RECEIVED AND BENEFITED FROM LAND THEY BOUGHT FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AFTER FLEEING ANTI-SEMITISM AND IMMIGRATING FROM RUSSIA ABOUT 100 YEARS AGO.

OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS SPOKE WITH CLARREN ABOUT THOSE STORIES SHE UNEARTHED AND ABOUT HOW THE HOMESTEAD ACT ENABLED MILLIONS OF AMERICANS INCLUDING CLARREN'S FAMILY TO BUILD WEALTH OFF OF LAND TAKEN FROM THE INDIGENOUS INCLUDING THE LAKOTA TRIBE.

>> Laura: REBECCA CLARREN, I AM SO HAPPY TO HAVE YOU HERE TODAY.

>> Clarren: IT'S AMAZING TO BE HERE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: YOUR NEW BOOK THE COST OF FREE LAND INTERWEAVES THE HISTORY OF YOUR ANCESTORS, JEWISH IMMIGRANTS WHO WERE FLEEING ANTI-SEMITISM IN RUSSIA AT THE TURN OF THE 20TH CENTURY AND THE HISTORY OF THE LAKOTA PEOPLE, WHOSE LANDS WERE TAKEN AWAY BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS FOR YOU BUT I WANTED TO START WITH WHAT DID THIS PROJECT START AS AND WHERE DID IT TAKE YOU?

>> Clarren: IN A WAY THIS PROJECT STARTED IN THE EARLY DAYS OF MY JOURNALISM CAREER, WHICH WAS 23 YEARS AGO, 22 YEARS AGO.

I WAS A STAFFER AT HIGH COUNTRY NEWS.

I WAS A YOUNG STAFFER THERE AND IT WAS MY FIRST REPORTING ASSIGNMENT WHERE I GOT TO LEAVE THE OFFICE AND NOT JUST REPORT OVER THE PHONE AND I WENT UP TO THE PINE -- IT WAS ONE OF MY FIRST, I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS MY VERY FIRST, BUT IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES I WAS ON THE ROAD.

AND I WENT UP TO THE PINE RIDGE RESERVATION.

I GOT TO DRIVE THE COMPANY CAR.

WE DIDN'T HAVE CELL PHONES BACK THEN.

WE HAD LIKE BURNER PHONES WITH US LIKE WE WERE DRUG DEALERS.

AND I WAS -- THE BOOK OPENS WITH THIS BUT I WAS IN THE CAR WITH A LAKOTA MAN WHO IS A BUFFALO RANCHER AND TRYING TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH HIM AND I WAS VERY UNCOMFORTABLE AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING.

I TRIED TO BE PALS BY TELLING HIM, OH, MY FAMILY USED TO BE RANCHERS IN SOUTH DAKOTA.

WE WERE HOMESTEADERS, THINKING THIS WOULD MAKE HIM LIKE ME.

BUT HE WAS POLITE AND A BIT COLD AND IT TOOK ME AN EMBARRASSING LONG TIME TO REALIZE WHAT IMMEDIATELY WHAT THAT WOULD HAVE MEANT TO HIM.

WHICH MEANT, WELL, YOUR FAMILY GOT LAND THAT WAS TAKEN INCREDIBLY UNFAIRLY FROM MY ANCESTORS BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, BREAKING TREATIES THAT WERE SIGNED BETWEEN MY NATION AND THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO THAT IS WHERE THIS, IN A WAY, THAT IS THE BEGINNING OF THIS STORY AND I HAVE WRITTEN -- I SPENT MY WHOLE CAREER WRITING ABOUT THE AMERICAN WEST, BASICALLY, MOST FOR NATIONAL MAGAZINES.

I DID WRITE A ONE-OFF NOVEL A FEW YEARS AGO BUT THAT ALSO WAS CONCERNED WITH PEOPLE AND PLACES THAT ARE THE AMERICAN WEST.

AND A FEW YEARS AGO I WROTE -- I WAS HIRED BY AN INVESTIGATIVE NONPROFIT TO WRITE A SERIES OF STORIES ABOUT NATIVE NATIONS AND NATIVE CITIZENS AND IT WAS REALLY WHEN I WAS ABLE TO REALLY LIKE JUST WRITE ONLY ABOUT NATIVE COMMUNITIES INTENSELY FOR A FEW YEARS THAT I REALIZED, OH, I AM SO UNCOMFORTABLE PRETENDING, AS A JOURNALIST, THAT I AM AN UNBIASED OBSERVER TO THIS HISTORY AND LEGACY OF THESE FEDERAL POLICIES THAT ARE NOW PLAYING OUT ACROSS INDIAN COUNTRY IN AMERICA.

BECAUSE I HAVE CLEARLY BENEFITED AS A DESCENDENT OF HOMESTEADERS FROM POLICIES THAT CAUSED GREAT HARM TO NATIVE PEOPLE.

>> Laura: AS THE GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF HOMESTEADERS YOU WRITE ABOUT HOW THE LAND WAS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE LAKOTA.

HOW THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DIDN'T JUST MURDER PEOPLE, STEAL AND ABUSE CHILDREN, BREAK TREATIES, AND SO MUCH MORE, THEY ALSO SWINDLED INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR LAND AND OUT OF THE PAYMENTS THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO BE HELD IN TRUST.

AND YET WHITE HOMESTEADERS INCLUDING YOUR FAMILY WERE ABLE TO LEVERAGE LAND INTO CAPITAL AND WEALTH.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR US TO CONTINUE RECKONING WITH THIS 100 YEARS LATER?

>> Clarren: I LOVE THAT QUESTION BECAUSE TO ME IT IS AT THE HEART OF THIS BOOK TO SAY THIS ISN'T HISTORY.

THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST.

AND THAT WE HAVE MOVED ON FROM.

I THINK A LOT OF THE WAYS, AT LEAST THE WAY I WAS BROUGHT UP, I HAD AN EXCELLENT EDUCATION, AND YET THE WAY I LEARNED THIS HISTORY WAS VERY MUCH THIS HAPPENED A LONG TIME AGO.

AND I FEEL VERY MUCH, ESPECIALLY AFTER LEARNING FROM LAKOTA ELDERS AND STUDYING WITH JEWISH LEADERS THAT, SO, THERE IS SORT OF THIS CULTURAL, A DIFFERENT CULTURAL IDEA OF TIME, BUT ALSO IT IS JUST WHAT IS SO TRUE, IS THAT THE PAST, I THINK, FAULKNER SAID IT, THE PAST ISN'T PASSED.

IT IS STILL HAPPENING.

AND IN A WAY, AND I WRITE THIS IN THE BOOK, I FEEL LIKE THE PAST IS LOOPED TO THIS CONTEMPORARY MOMENT LIKE THREADS THROUGH A SEAM.

TO ME THAT WAS WHAT WAS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT THIS HISTORY, THAT IT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

AND I USED THE WAY THAT MY FAMILY WAS ABLE TO MONETIZE OUR LAND TO DEMONSTRATE IN REALLY STARK ECONOMIC TERMS, THIS IS WHAT THIS LAND IN SOME WAYS HAS DONE FOR ME AND WHAT IT HADN'T DONE FOR LAKOTA PEOPLE BECAUSE, TO EXPLAIN, I PULLED EVERY SINGLE DEED ON THE LANDS MY FAMILY HAD.

THERE WERE SIX -- MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE HOMESTEADERS.

MY GREAT, GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE HOMESTEADERS AND FIVE OF MY AUNTS AND UNCLES AND THEIR HUSBANDS AND WIVES WERE ALSO HOMESTEADERS.

AND THEY OVER AND OVER AGAIN WOULD TAKE OUT A MORTGAGE ON THE LAND.

YOU SEE -- AND I WAS ABLE BECAUSE OF LIKE ORIGINAL FAMILY DOCUMENTS, LETTERS, JOURNALS, NEWSPAPER CLIPPINGS THAT I FOUND FROM OLD PAPERS AND THEN THESE DOCUMENTS FROM THE DEEDS OFFICE, THESE MORTGAGE PAYMENTS, I COULD SEE THIS TIMELINE THAT THEY WOULD TAKE OUT A MORTGAGE ON VALUE OF THEIR LAND AND THEN THEY WOULD MOVE.

OR THEY WOULD START A NEW BUSINESS THAT WAS NOT CONTINGENT ON WEATHER.

MY FAMILY GOT INTO THE SALOON BUSINESS.

IT WAS MORE STEADY IN NORTH DAKOTA THAN FARMING AND RANCHING.

SO YOU JUST SEE THESE LITTLE BITS OF MONEY, RELATIVELY LITTLE BITS OF MONEY, OVER TIME IS REALLY WHAT BUILDS THE PATHWAY FOR THEM TO BECOME MIDDLE CLASS AND BEYOND.

AT THE SAME TIME THAT THAT IS HAPPENING, THE LAKOTA, AS YOU SAID, ARE NOT ALLOWED, MOST OF THEM, TO MANAGE THEIR OWN MONEY.

THEIR MONEY IS HELD IN TRUST BY THESE RESERVATION SORT OF FEDERAL APPOINTED MAYOR'S OF THE RESERVATION AND THEY WERE CALLED SUPERINTENDENTS OR INDIAN AGENTS.

AND OFTEN THEY WEREN'T RECEIVING THEIR MONEY FOR A LONG TIME.

THERE IS DOCUMENTS OF PEOPLE DYING OF STARVATION WHILE THEY ARE WAITING TO GET THEIR MONEY AND PAYMENTS OFF THE VALUE OF THEIR LAND THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS SUPPOSEDLY KEEPING IN TRUST FOR THEM AND KEEPING TRACK OF.

AND SO YOU SEE THE DISPARITY.

THIS IS NOT WHERE MY OWN PERSONAL FAMILY, THEN, COMPLETELY CROSS-SECTS WITH COLLECTIVE HISTORY AND COLLECTIVE EFFORT.

SOCIOLOGISTS AT THIS POINT TODAY HAVE CONNECTED A PERSON'S ABILITY TO OWN A SECOND HOME, TO PAY FOR COLLEGE, TO HAVE WEALTH, TO THE HOMESTEAD ACT.

THE HOMESTEAD ACT, LEGAL SCHOLARS HAVE CALLED THIS A MASSIVE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION FOR WHITE PEOPLE, THE HOMESTEAD ACT WAS.

AND THERE IS SOMETHING LIKE 25% OF AMERICANS LIVING TODAY, ADULT AMERICANS, DESCEND FROM HOMESTEADERS.

>> Laura: THE SECOND CHAPTER OF YOUR BOOK IS TITLED THE HOLOCAUST AT HOME AND THE USE OF THAT WORD IS CLEARLY DELIBERATE COMING FROM A JEWISH WRITER.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR US TO USE THAT WORD?

>> Clarren: SO, WHEN I WAS A KID I WAS OBSESSED WITH THE HOLOCAUST AND NOW I HAVE A KID WHO IS OBSESSED WITH THE HOLOCAUST AND IT IS TOTALLY UNNERVING.

BUT I WAS ALWAYS LIKE I WANTED TO READ EVERYTHING I COULD GET MY HANDS ON.

I THOUGHT I KNEW A LOT ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST AND YET IT WASN'T UNTIL A LAKOTA ELDER BECOMES REALLY CENTRAL TO THE PROJECT AND TO ME PERSONALLY, DOUG WHITE BULL, TOLD ME, YOU KNOW, YOUR FAMILY, THE JEWS, THEY SURVIVED A HOLOCAUST.

IT WAS HORRIBLE BUT WE HAD A HOLOCAUST HERE AND IT LASTED FOR 400 YEARS.

AND NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT IT.

YET, WHEN YOU'RE IN LAKOTA COUNTRY PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST THAT HAPPENED TO THEM ALL THE TIME.

AND I LEARNED THROUGH DOUG TELLING ME ABOUT IT AND THEN GOING OFF AND STUDYING AND READING BOOKS BY MANY SCHOLARS THAT HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, THAT, IN FACT, HITLER AND HIS LEGAL TEAM BASED MANY OF THEIR POLICIES ON HOW TO RESTRICT RIGHTS FROM JEWISH PEOPLE BASED ON THE WAY AMERICA WAS TAKING RIGHTS FROM NATIVE PEOPLE AND BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT BLEW MY MIND.

AND THE FACT THAT AGAIN IT IS ONE OF THESE POINTS WHERE YOU THINK YOU UNDERSTAND -- I THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD AMERICAN HISTORY AND MORE GLOBAL HISTORY AND SUDDENLY EVERYTHING I THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD WAS REALLY SHAKEN WHEN SEEING IT FROM THIS NATIVE PERSPECTIVE.

SO, YEAH, I USE THAT WORD VERY INTENTIONALLY BECAUSE THAT IS THE WAY THAT MANY LAKOTA ELDERS WHO I SPOKE WITH TALK ABOUT IT AND I THINK IT IS REASONABLE.

CHILDREN WERE MURDERED.

PEOPLE WERE STARVED INTENTIONALLY TO BE CONTROLLED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

AND THEY WERE RESTRICTED ON TO RESERVATIONS WHICH HITLER HIMSELF USED AS A PREMISE FOR CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

SO, YOU ALSO WRITE IN YOUR BOOK THAT AMERICA HAS FAILED TO UNDERGO ANY PROCESS OF NATIONAL TRUTH TELLING, REPARATION OR RECONCILIATION LET ALONE ANY REAL PUBLIC AMENDMENTS.

THAT CLEARLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT, AS YOU FOUND AND AS YOU WRITE, THERE ARE ALSO WAYS FOR FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES TO BE MAKING REPARATIONS AND RECONCILIATION.

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THE WORK THAT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ARE DOING BUT ALSO THE COMMUNITY WORK THAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING WITH RABBI BENJAMIN BARNETT.

>> Clarren: EARLY IN THIS PROCESS, AN INDIGENOUS JUDGE, JUDGE ABBY ABINANTI, WHO IS A JUSTICE OF THE YUROK NATION AN INDIGENOUS AND SHE ALSO A FORMER CALIFORNIA SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE.

SHE IS A TOTAL BAD ASS.

AND SHE IS LIKE IN HER MID 70'S, BEEN DOING THIS WORK HER WHOLE YEAR.

SHE WAS THE FIRST NATIVE AMERICAN, I THINK, FIRST NATIVE AMERICAN TO PASS THE BAR IN CALIFORNIA.

SHE RUNS HER COURTROOM FOR THE YUROK NATION WITH AN EYE TOWARD HOW DID WE DO JUSTICE BEFORE CULTURAL INTERRUPTION?

IT IS ALL ABOUT, SHE SAYS, AND WHAT SHE TAUGHT ME IS JUSTICE WORKS BEST WHEN IT IS EMBEDDED IN YOUR OWN CULTURE.

SO, EARLY ON WHEN I WAS -- BEFORE THIS WAS EVEN IN THE BOOK, WHEN I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT IT, SHE SAID TO ME, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THIS HISTORY AND YOU WANT TO GRAPPLE WITH HOW TO RESPOND TO THIS HISTORY, YOU NEED TO STUDY THE JEWS.

WHAT DO THE JEWS SAY ABOUT HOW TO RESPOND TO A HARM, MAYBE ONE YOU DIDN'T DIRECTLY CAUSE BUT ONE YOU HAVE BENEFITED FROM.

AND THAT -- I HAD A THOUGHT IN THIS BUT I BELONG TO A SYNAGOGUE.

I LIGHT CANDLES EVERY WEEK WITH MY FAMILY TO DO SHABBAT BUT I HAD NEVER DONE TOUR STUDY.

I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW HOW TO DO THAT AND LUCKILY I DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT ALONE.

RABBI HERE IN TOWN, RABBI BARNETT, WHO CARES DEEPLY ABOUT SOCIAL JUSTICE, MY SYNAGOGUE IS A COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT SOCIAL JUSTICE, SAID LET'S DO THIS LEARNING TOGETHER.

THIS LEARNING WILL BENEFIT OUR OR WHOLE COMMUNITY.

AND SO WE SPENT SEVERAL YEARS STUDYING ANCIENT JEWISH TEXTS AND CONTEMPORARY RABBIS WHO ARE WRITING INSPIRED BY ANCIENT TEXTS TO CONSIDER WHAT ONE RABBI, IN PARTICULAR, SAID IS THE SORT OF FOUNDATIONAL SINS OF OUR COUNTRY, WHICH IS WE BUILT OUR COUNTRY WHICH IS THE STEALING OF NATIVE LANDS AND STEALING OF ENSLAVED PEOPLES BODIES.

AND SO I AM ANSWERING THIS IN A VERY LONG ROUNDABOUT WAY BECAUSE IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME THAT WHAT MY FAMILY IS DOING TO RESPOND TO THE REALITY OF OUR HISTORY IN AMERICA IS GROUNDED DEEPLY IN THIS JEWISH LEARNING THAT WE DID.

AND ALSO AT THE SAME TIME, I HAD MANY CONVERSATIONS WITH LAKOTA ELDERS WHO -- AND ASKING THEM, WHAT WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?

WHAT WOULD WORK FOR YOU?

AND IT TOOK A LONG TIME.

IT WASN'T UNTIL A COUPLE OF YEARS INTO MY RELATIONSHIP WITH WHITE BULL WHEN I ASKED THE QUESTION A COUPLE TIMES THAT HE ACTUALLY FINALLY RESPONDED.

HE IS -- WHITE BULL WAS A VETERAN TEACHER, AND HE, LIKE A TEACHER, HE NEVER REALLY SAYS, THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.

HE SORT OF JUST LEADS YOU TO MAKE CONNECTIONS ON YOUR OWN.

HE SAID TO ME, WELL, HE REMINDED ME, AGAIN, OF SOMETHING HE TOLD ME ABOUT BEFORE WHICH IS THERE IS A NATIVE LED EFFORT TO BUY UP, WHEN PRIVATE LAND COMES UP FOR SALE IN THE BLACK HILLS OF SOUTH DAKOTA, THERE IS A NATIVE EFFORT TO BUY PRIVATE LAND AND HELD IN TRUST FOR ALL LAKOTA PEOPLE TO USE FOR CEREMONY AND OTHER PURPOSES.

AND EVEN THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, THERE IS NO DEBATE.

SUPREME COURT IN 1980 MADE VERY CLEAR, OH, WE STOLE THIS LAND.

WE UNFAIRLY STOLE THIS LAND FROM LAKOTA AND THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY SITTING IN A BANK ACCOUNT THAT THE UNITED STATES SAID, HERE, WE ARE GOING TO PAY YOU BACK BECAUSE WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN THIS LAND FROM YOU AND THE LAKOTA DON'T WANT IT, BECAUSE THEY WANT THE LAND INSTEAD.

SO, THIS IS A LONG WAY OF EXPLAINING THAT WHAT MY FAMILY HAS DONE IS I HAVE STARTED A FUND CALLED A RECOVERY FUND WITH THE INDIAN LAND TENURE FOUNDATION FUND WHICH IS A NONPROFIT THAT IS NATIVE LED THAT HAS BEEN DOING THIS WORK FOR 30 YEARS.

WE ARE NOT INVENTING ANYTHING HERE.

I THINK THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

I THINK THAT AS DESCENDENTS OF THE SETTLERS YOU DON'T WANT TO BE LIKE, OH, I HAVE GOT THE SOLUTION.

I AM JUST FOLLOWING THE GUIDANCE OF SOMETHING THAT NATIVE PEOPLE ARE ALREADY DOING AND SO WE HAVE CREATED A FUND AND I HAVE SET AS OUR FUND RAISING GOAL 1.$1 MILLION.

1.1 MILLION-DOLLAR IS NOT A HYPOTHETICAL NUMBER.

IT IS THE NUMBER WHEN ADJUST FOR INFLATION.

WHEN I CALLED ALL THOSE MORTGAGES THAT MY FAMILY RECEIVED FROM 1908 TO 1960'S, I THINK IS MAYBE THE LAST MORTGAGE WE GOT, I MADE A SPREADSHEET.

I ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION.

I HAD MATH NERDS CHECK MY MATH.

AND 1.1 MILLION IS THE AMOUNT THAT WE RECEIVED OFF THAT FREE LAND.

OF COURSE, WE HAD TO PAY THAT MONEY BACK, AND, OF COURSE, MY FAMILY WORKED SO HARD AND REALLY STRUGGLED ON THAT LAND BUT TO ME THAT MONEY, IT IS WHAT WE OWE.

IT IS OUR PIECE OF THIS.

>> LAURA: THANK YOU REBECCA.

I LOVED YOUR BOOK.

I LEARNED SO MUCH AND I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING WHERE THIS BOOK OUT TO AND I AM SURE TONS OF PEOPLE WILL READ IT BUT I HOPE TO SEE IT IN CLASSROOMS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, BUT THANKS FOR JOINING ME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> Clarren: THANK YOU, GREAT TO BE HERE.