>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, CAMERAS CLAMPED ON ALL CAMPUS COPS AT UNM, BUT ONLY AFTER THE DAILY LOBO STUDENT NEWSPAPER UNEARTHED A LOOPHOLE IN STATE LAW.

>> Lifke: BODY CAMERAS, IT'S KIND OF BEEN UNIVERSALLY AGREED THAT THEY'RE KIND OF BENEFICIAL TO BOTH COMMUNITY AND TO COPS.

THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW SITUATIONS AT UNM WHERE THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPORTANT TO HAVE.

>> Lou: AND THE LATEST INSTALLMENT IN OUR INDIGENOUSLY POSITIVE SERIES ZEROS IN ON TWO ACTIVISTS BUILDING COMMUNITY IN THE FACE OF THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I'M SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DiVIZIO.

WE'VE PACKED A LOT INTO THE NEXT HOUR.

LATER ON, WE'LL HEAR FROM TWO STUDENT JOURNALISTS FROM THE DAILY LOBO, WORKING TO INCREASE PUBLIC TRANSPARENCY AROUND THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THEY'LL EXPLAIN WHY CAMPUS COPS JUST STARTED WEARING BODY CAMERAS, DESPITE A FIVE-YEAR-OLD STATE LAW REQUIRING EVERY OFFICER IN THE STATE TO DO SO.

AND WHY THE DEPARTMENT IS REFUSING TO DISCLOSE ITS TAXPAYER-FUNDED WEAPONS INVENTORY.

THAT'S ALL COMING UP IN ABOUT 30 MINUTES.

BUT WE BEGIN OUR SHOW AT A CHARTER SCHOOL IN GALLUP.

U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR.

VISITED THE LARGELY NATIVE AMERICAN TOWN IN WESTERN NEW MEXICO WEDNESDAY FOR A TOUR OF HÓZHÓ ACADEMY.

IT'S A PUBLICLY-FUNDED K-11 AND A NETWORK OF CHARTER SCHOOLS AFFILIATED WITH THE CONSERVATIVE-LEANING HILLSDALE COLLEGE, WHICH IS BASED IN MICHIGAN.

IT WAS KENNEDY'S LATEST STOP DURING HIS TRIP THROUGH THE SOUTHWEST, PROMOTING INITIATIVES THAT FIT WHAT HE CALLS HEALTH AND FITNESS PRIORITIES.

HÓZHÓ ACADEMY HAS DONE THINGS DIFFERENTLY SINCE IT OPENED IN 2018, INCORPORATING AN OFF-BEAT PHYSICAL EDUCATION CURRICULUM AND SERVING FOOD THEY SAY MEETS HIGHER NUTRITIONAL STANDARDS THAN MOST SCHOOLS.

WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM THE PRINCIPAL IN JUST A MINUTE.

BUT WE NEED TO EXPLAIN HOW WE AND OTHER JOURNALISTS WERE ABLE TO MAKE IT TO THIS EVENT.

NEWS OF THE TRIP CAME LATE, AS DID MEDIA AVAILABILITY.

THE WHITE HOUSE NEVER RELEASED ITS LOCATION TO THE PUBLIC.

THE SCHOOL TEASED A SPECIAL GUEST, BUT WOULDN'T ELABORATE.

LATE TUESDAY, THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES MEDIA TEAM INVITED NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS CORRESPONDENT ANATONIA GONZALES, A NAVAJO NATION CITIZEN, WHO ALSO WORKED FOR MANY YEARS AT INDIGENOUS-LED NEWS ORGANIZATIONS TO COVER KENNEDY'S VISIT.

ANATONIA RECEIVED PRESS CREDENTIALS FOR HER RADIO WORK AND TO BE ACCOMPANIED WITH A PHOTOGRAPHER FROM NMPBS.

SHE WAS ONE OF A HANDFUL OF JOURNALISTS INVITED TO THE EVENT.

DESPITE THAT INVITATION, KENNEDY AND HIS STAFF DIDN'T PROVIDE TIME FOR QUESTIONS AFTER HE SPOKE TO STUDENTS AND FACULTY AT THE CONSERVATIVE CHARTER SCHOOL.

ANATONIA WANTED TO ASK HIM HOW THE ADMINISTRATION'S POLICIES WILL IMPACT INDIAN COUNTRY MORE BROADLY, FROM CUTS TO MEDICAID TO RESHUFFLING THE INDIAN HEALTH SERVICE.

WE WANTED TO KNOW HOW ACTIONS LIKE THOSE FIT INTO THIS PLAN TO, QUOTE, "ELEVATE INDIGENOUS HEALTH."

IT'S A PHRASE HE'S USED OFTEN SINCE PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP APPOINTED HIM TO THE POSITION.

SO, ANTONIA FOLLOWED HIM OUT OF THE SCHOOL TO ASK.

HERE'S AUDIO OF THAT BRIEF INTERACTION.

>> Antonia: NEW MEXICO PBS-- CAN YOU COMMENT >> Staffer: SORRY.

WE DON'T HAVE TIME.

>> Antonia: REAL QUICK ABOUT THE INDIAN HEALTH SERVICE-- >> Kennedy: I'M DOING EVERYTHING THAT I CAN TO MAKE SURE THERE'S NO CUTS IN INDIAN HEALTH SERVICE.

THAT'S MY PRIORITY.

>> Lou: AS FOR WHY SECRETARY KENNEDY CHOSE HÓZHÓ FOR HIS VISIT, ANTONIA CAUGHT UP WITH THE SCHOOL'S PRINCIPAL WHO EXPLAINED HOW THE CONNECTION WAS MADE AND SHARED SOME DETAILS ON WHY SHE THINKS THE SCHOOL'S PHILOSOPHY WILL BENEFIT CHILDREN IN GALLUP.

>> Hillock: WE'VE BEEN PRACTICING AND WORKING HARD FOR A LONG TIME ON OUR PHYSICAL EDUCATION PROGRAM RIGHT AFTER COVID STRUCK OUR COMMUNITY.

AND IT SEEMED TO DISPROPORTIONATELY STRIKE US HERE IN McKINLEY COUNTY WITH ESPECIALLY OUR NATIVE AMERICAN POPULATION.

WE DECIDED THAT WE WOULD MAKE AN EFFORT TO HAVE OUR STUDENTS UNDERSTAND HEALTHY LIFESTYLES AND UNDERSTAND PHYSICAL FITNESS.

AND THAT'S BEEN A LONG JOURNEY.

WE DID THAT WITH THE JOHN F. KENNEDY'S -- THE PRESIDENT'S COUNCIL ON PHYSICAL FITNESS, WHICH HE TRIED TO START BEFORE HIS ASSASSINATION.

SO, IT NEVER REALLY GOT OFF.

BUT WE WATCHED A MOVIE, A DOCUMENTARY, CALLED MOTIVATION FACTOR, WHERE THEY TALKED ABOUT THE SCHOOL, THE LA SIERRA HIGH SCHOOL, AND HOW THEY DID THIS PROGRAM AND GOT THEIR KIDS PHYSICALLY FIT.

SO, WE THOUGHT THIS IS SOMETHING WE THINK WOULD BE REALLY BENEFICIAL.

ALSO, IT'S BENEFICIAL BECAUSE OUR STUDENTS STRUGGLE FROM THINGS LIKE TRAUMA.

SOME OF OUR STUDENTS HAVE SOME VERY DIFFICULT SITUATIONS THAT THEY'RE DEALING WITH IN THEIR LIVES.

AND WE THOUGHT, WELL, IT DOESN'T REALLY HELP IF WE HAVE THIS STRONG PHYSICAL FITNESS PROGRAM BUT WE DON'T HAVE A FOOD PROGRAM THAT SUPPORTS IT.

SO, IT DOESN'T REALLY HELP IF YOU'RE PHYSICALLY FIT AND EATING FOOD THAT DOESN'T REALLY HELP SUPPORT THAT LIFESTYLE.

SO, WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR A NUMBRT OF YEARS.

AND DR. HEIDI OVERTON, SHE IS A GALLUP RESIDENT WHO WORKS IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND HELPS SUPPORT THIS IDEA OF PREVENTATIVE MEDICINE AND HEALTHY LIVING.

SHE WAS A STUDENT HERE IN GALLUP, AND CAME BACK AND THOUGHT SHE WAS GOING TO TRY TO HELP US PROMOTE THIS INITIATIVE TO HAVE PHYSICAL FITNESS AND HEALTHY NUTRITION.

IT WAS REALLY HER CONNECTION TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE FACT THAT SHE IS FROM GALLUP AND THAT SHE HAS FRIENDS WHO HAVE CHILDREN WHO GO HERE THAT SHE HEARD ABOUT OUR SCHOOL AND THE PROGRAM WE WERE TRYING TO DEVELOP.

>> Lou: THANKS TO CORRESPONDENT ANTONIA GONZALES AND PHOTOJOURNALIST JOEY DUNN FOR TRYING TO GET SOME ANSWERS FROM RFK, JR., IN GALLUP.

ONCE AGAIN, WE WERE HOPING TO SPEAK TO THE SECRETARY ABOUT HOW SOME OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S EXECUTIVE ACTIONS AND POLICY PROPOSALS WILL IMPACT COMMUNITIES ACROSS NEW MEXICO.

KENNEDY AND HIS STAFF DID NOT GIVE US THAT OPPORTUNITY.

>> Garcia: SHOULDN'T WE WANT ALL STATES TO HAVE CERTAIN BENCHMARKS AND MEET THOSE CRITERIA?

IT BECOMES A SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY.

IF PEOPLE LOOK AT YOU AND SAY OH, MY GOD, YOU'RE STILL 50th, YOU'RE 49th, WHY DO WE WANT TO BRING OUR COMPANIES HERE TO INVEST IN YOUR STATE?

WHY WOULD FAMILIES-- WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO RELOCATE THEIR FAMILIES IF YOUR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IS FAILING?

>> Lou: OUR INTERVIEW WITH SANTA FE PUBLIC SCHOOLS INTERIM SUPERINTENDENT VERONICA GARCIA IS COMING UP IN ABOUT 10 MINUTES.

"SELF-CARE IS COMMUNITY CARE."

THAT'S A QUOTE FROM THE LATEST EPISODE IN THE INDIGENOUSLY POSITIVE SERIES.

A COLLABORATION WITH NONPROFIT JOURNALISM OUTFIT NEW MEXICO IN DEPTH.

CORRESPONDENT BELLA DAVIS SPOKE WITH TWO INDIGENOUS CLIMATE ORGANIZERS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF TRADITIONAL ECOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE AND CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

AND WHAT BUILDING COMMUNITY LOOKS LIKE FOR THEM.

HERE'S BELLA.

>> Bella: WITH SO MANY BLEAK HEADLINES, HOW DO YOU WORK THROUGH FEELINGS OF HOPELESSNESS?

WE ASKED TWO INDIGENOUS CLIMATE ORGANIZERS THAT QUESTION.

AND, SPOILER ALERT, PART OF THE ANSWER IS BUILDING STRONG COMMUNITY TIES AND FINDING STRENGTH IN THEIR ANCESTOR'S RESISTANCE.

>> DeVore: I WOULD FIRST TELL THEM THAT THEIR FEELINGS ARE VALID.

AND I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE REALISTIC IN THAT WAY OF FEELING, MAYBE, THE SENSE OF HOPELESSNESS, EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT A GOOD FEELING.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO BE TRANSPARENT AND BRING AWARENESS AS TO WHAT THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION IS DOING, NOT JUST TO THE LIVELIHOOD OF SO MANY PEOPLE, BUT ALSO THE MENTAL STATE AND WELL-BEING OF ALL OF US.

I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO THAT, TO CREATE COMMUNITY WITH THE PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE A PART OF.

WHETHER THAT'S IN THEIR SCHOOLS, OR WHETHER THAT IS IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD OR THE PUEBLO COMMUNITIES OR THEIR TRIBES THAT THEY COME FROM BECAUSE THE LAST THING THAT WE SHOULD BE DOING IS JUST TO CONTINUE TO FEEL HOPELESS, AS WE TALKED ABOUT.

BECAUSE THAT IS NOT GOING TO GET US ANYWHERE.

BUT WITH THAT TOO, YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT TO REMIND EVERYONE HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR BODIES-- LISTEN TO THEIR BODIES.

AND TO LEAN IN TO WHAT IS SUPPORTING US TO CONTINUE TO MOVE FORWARD.

>> Antonio: I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE ARE A PART OF THE ECOSYSTEM.

THERE ARE MORE THINGS THAN CAPITALISM, CAPITAL AND DEFINITELY MAKING SACRIFICES IN ORDER TO FIGHT FOR THE FUTURE THAT WE WANT, WHETHER IT BE CLEAN WATER, CLEAN AIR, THESE THINGS THAT ARE SO-- THESE THINGS THAT WE TAKE FOR GRANTED EVERY DAY ARE THE VERY THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO STAND UP AND RISE UP FOR.

I BELIEVE IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE EVERYONE.

I FEEL LIKE DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WE'VE BECOME SO COMFORTABLE AND SO SEPARATE, NOW THAT WE HAVE A VERY MUCH-- VERY FASCIST ADMINISTRATION NOW, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO REALLY WORK COLLECTIVELY AND NOT WORK IN SILOS.

SO, I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE PRIVILEGES, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY, THAT WE HAVE TO REALLY LOOK AT, BUT ALSO THE AMOUNT OF TECHNOLOGY WE HAVE RIGHT NOW GETTING COMFORTABLE WITH THAT.

NOT PURCHASING MORE.

REALLY BOYCOTTING A LOT OF THESE SYSTEMS THAT ARE VERY MUCH PUTTING US IN THESE VULNERABLE PLACES.

>> Bella: REYES AND CHEYENNE BOTH WORK FOR INDIGENOUS-LED GROUPS FOCUSED ON ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES AFFECTING THEIR COMMUNITIES.

AND THEIR WORK IS VERY MUCH GUIDED BY TRADITIONAL TEACHINGS.

>> DeVore: AT THE CORE OF MANY OF OUR COMMUNITIES, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT RECIPROCITY.

YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY WITH PUEBLO PEOPLE, WHAT WE TAKE WE ALWAYS GIVE BACK.

AND WHEN I SAY WHAT WE TAKE, THAT MEANS LIKE WHEN WE'RE HUNTING OR WHEN WE'RE GATHERING FOOD OR GATHERING WATER, THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING GIVEN BACK.

WHETHER THAT'S A PRAYER, WHETHER THAT'S A SONG, THERE'S JUST THIS ACT OF RECIPROCITY THAT HAS BEEN PRACTICED FOR CENTURIES.

AND THAT MODEL HAS SERVED INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES UP UNTIL LIKE WE BEGAN TO SEE COLONIALISM REALLY TAKE INDIGENOUS LAND BASES AND COMMODIFY THOSE RESOURCES.

SO, WHEN THERE'S THAT IMBALANCE OF THAT HAPPENING, WHAT WE'RE EXPERIENCING IS THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

SO, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT INDIGENOUS SOLUTIONS ARE UPLIFTED AND IT'S NOT JUST A PERSPECTIVE.

IT IS OUR LIVED EXPERIENCES.

>> Antonio: THE LAND CARE IS MORE THAN A JOB BECAUSE IT'S MORE OF A CULTURAL OBLIGATION.

IT'S A SACRED DUTY.

I'M JUST GRATEFUL THAT IN THIS TIME AND SPACE RIGHT NOW -- THAT IN THE TIME WE'RE IN WE'RE HERE TO DEFEND DINÉ PEOPLE.

WE'RE HERE TO DEFEND DINÉ SACRED SPACES, OUR WATER, OUR AIR, OUR PLANTS, OUR ANIMALS, THAT WE'RE NOT ALONE.

>> Bella: THE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY AND THE LEGACY OF URANIUM EXTRACTION ARE SOME OF WHAT CHEYENNE'S WORK IS CENTERED ON.

>> DeVore: WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR PUEBLO LIFEWAYS AND A LOT OF OTHER INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES, WE OPERATE IN MATRILINEAL SYSTEMS.

YOU KNOW, WE PRAY TO MOTHERS.

WE PRAY TO OUR EARTH MOTHER TOO, AND THEN I ALSO THINK ABOUT ALL THE MOTHERS THAT EXIST, YOU KNOW, IN OUR COMMUNITIES TODAY.

AND THAT INCLUDES MYSELF.

I THINK ABOUT HOW WOMEN AND MOTHERS-- LIKE THEY ALWAYS SAY WE'RE THE BACKBONE OF OUR FAMILIES, AND WE TRULY ARE.

>> Bella: FOR REYES AND CHEYENNE, ONE OF THE FIRST STEPS OF BUILDING A BETTER WORLD, Y0U KNOW, ONE WHERE ALL OF OUR COMMUNITIES THRIVE AND WE'RE NOT ACTIVELY DESTROYING THE PLANET, IS BUILDING COMMUNITY.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE?

>> DeVore: THERE'S THAT SAYING THAT, SELF-CARE IS COMMUNITY CARE.

AND COMMUNITY CARE IS SELF-CARE TOO.

>> Bella: EVERY YEAR, PUEBLO ACTION ALLIANCE HOSTS A COMMUNITY EVENT CALLED THE HEALING CIRCLE.

THE FIRST ONE WAS HELD IN 2017 TO WELCOME BACK WATER PROTECTORS TO NEW MEXICO FROM THE STANDING ROCK PROTESTS.

>> DeVore: IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE-- ESPECIALLY NOW WITH THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION AND WHAT WE'RE FACING AS A PEOPLE, THAT WE LEAN INTO STRENGTHENING THOSE RELATIONSHIPS THAT WE HOLD OR CULTIVATE NEW ONES WHERE PEOPLE CAN FEEL WELCOME AND ALSO OFFER RESOURCES TO PEOPLE, SO THAT WAY THEY ALSO ARE GETTING THEIR NEEDS MET.

AND EVEN THE MOST BASIC NEEDS, WHEN IT COMES TO FOOD OR CREATING ART OR MAKING MEALS TOGETHER.

>> Antonio: A COMMUNITY THAT GROWS TOGETHER STAYS TOGETHER.

A COMMUNITY THAT HAULS WATER TOGETHER STAYS TOGETHER.

IT'S REALLY GOING BACK TO THE ROOTS AND HAVING TO HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

THOSE ONE-ON-ONE CONVERSATIONS.

THE CONVERSATIONS WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE, BUT ALSO GIVING EVERYONE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

GIVING EVERYONE A CHANCE.

LEARNING TO GROW TOGETHER.

LEARNING TO ORGANIZE COMMUNITY MEETINGS.

>> DeVore: THIS WORK ISN'T JUST ABOUT OURSELVES.

IT'S ABOUT PROTECTING COMMUNITY.

AND IT'S ABOUT BEING GOOD DESCENDANTS OF ANCESTORS WHO FOUGHT AGAINST THE SPANIARDS FOR US TO BE HERE.

AND IT IS A REMINDER THAT WE AREN'T GOING TO CENTER ANY ONE PERSON WHEN IT COMES TO THIS FIGHT.

BECAUSE WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE PUEBLO REVOLT, I THINK ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT MEETINGS AND STRATEGY THAT THEY ALL CAME TOGETHER FOR.

>> Bella: WE ALSO WANTED TO HEAR FROM REYES AND CHEYENNE WHAT BRINGS THEM JOY.

>> DeVore: BEING ABLE TO GO HOME.

BEING ABLE TO GO HOME BACK TO JEMEZ TO BE A PART OF MY COMMUNITY, WHETHER THAT IS HELPING TO COOK WHEN THERE ARE THINGS HAPPENING, OR BEING ABLE TO JUST SIT WITH MY FAMILY OR MY GRANDMA, YOU KNOW, WHEN SHE'S DOING HER POTTERY.

THOSE THINGS BRING ME JOY TO HAVE THAT CULTURE TO GO BACK TO.

AND TO BE ABLE TO OFFER THAT PUEBLO CHILDHOOD TO MY SON, AND FOR HIM TO LEARN EARLY ON AS OPPOSED TO HOW I WAS-- MY CHILDHOOD LOOKED LIKE.

THAT DEFINITELY BRINGS JOY AND LOT OF GRATITUDE TO ME.

>> Antonio: USUALLY METAL CONCERTS, YOU SEE A BUNCH OF NATIVES EVERYWHERE.

SO, I LOVE THAT.

I LOVE IT WHEN WE THRIVE.

INDIGENOUS JOY, SEEING INDIGENOUS BRILLIANCE BEING PRACTICED, SEEING NATIVE STUDENTS GRADUATE, SEEING NATIVE FOLKS BE RECOGNIZED.

JUST SEEING INDIGENOUS PROFESSIONALS DOING THE RIGHT THING ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THINGS, NOT ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THINGS.

BUT IF YOU ARE PUSHING OUR PEOPLE, AND MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE PROTECTING NAHASDZÁÁN, OUR VALUES, I LOVE THAT.

>> Alexander: HE INFORMED US ABOUT A LOOPHOLE IN THE STATE STATUTE THAT REQUIRES MOST POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE STATE TO USE BODY-WORN CAMERAS.

UNIVERSITY POLICE ARE NOT EXPLICITLY INCLUDED, NOR ARE THEY EXPLICITLY EXCLUDED FROM THE STATUTE, BUT THAT IS THE REASONING THAT UNM PD WAS USING-- FOR NOT HAVING THE CAMERAS.

>> Lou: HEAR FROM DAILY LOBO EDITORS LAUREN ALEXANDER AND LAUREN LIFKE, A LITTLE LATER ON IN THE SHOW.

GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM IS CALLING IN THE NATIONAL GUARD TO HELP THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT IN WHAT SHE'S CALLING "A CRIME EMERGENCY."

THROUGH AN EXECUTIVE ORDER INKED EARLIER THIS WEEK, THE GOVERNOR WILL SEND 60 TO 70 GUARDSMEN TO ALBUQUERQUE BY MID-MAY.

SHE SAYS THE NEW MEXICO DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY, STATE POLICE, AND APD WILL TRAIN THE SOLDIERS BEFORE THEY ARRIVE.

ALBUQUERQUE POLICE CHIEF HAROLD MEDINA ASKED LUJAN GRISHAM FOR HELP FROM THE GUARD, CITING A FENTANYL CRISIS AND RISING JUVENILE CRIME AS, QUOTE, CRITICAL ISSUES REQUIRING IMMEDIATE INTERVENTION, END QUOTE.

ACCORDING TO CITY OFFICIALS, THE DOZENS OF GUARDSMEN SENT TO ALBUQUERQUE WILL WEAR POLOS, NOT FATIGUES.

AND THEY WON'T CARRY WEAPONS.

INSTEAD, THEY'LL WORK IN TRAFFIC CONTROL, SECURITY AT THE AIRPORT, AND QUOTE, MEDICAL ASSISTANCE AND HUMANITARIAN EFFORTS ALONG CENTRAL AVENUE, END QUOTE.

THE IDEA IS TO FREE UP ABOUT 20 TO 30 OFFICERS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS.

NOW, THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF NEW MEXICO SLAMMED THE EXECUTIVE ORDER, MINUTES AFTER IT CAME OUT.

CALLING IT A SHOW OF FORCE, NOT A SHOW OF SOLUTIONS.

IN A STATEMENT RELEASED TUESDAY, THE ACLU SAID, QUOTE, "MILITARIZING CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT WILL LEAD TO CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.

AND IN A STATE SO HEAVILY IMPACTED BY POLICE VIOLENCE, THE ANSWER TO SAFETY CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE FOUND IN INCREASED POLICE PRESENCE ESPECIALLY NOT THROUGH COLLABORATION WITH THE MILITARY."

THE DEPLOYMENT WILL BEGIN THIS SUMMER.

THE GOVERNOR'S ORDER DOES NOT SAY WHEN THE GUARDSMEN WILL LEAVE THE CITY.

NEW MEXICO'S FIRST PUBLIC EDUCATION SECRETARY, VERONICA GARCIA, HAVE SEEN A LOT OF CHANGES IN OUR CLASSROOMS SINCE SHE SERVED UNDER BILL RICHARDSON 20 YEARS AGO.

SHE'S NOW SEMI-RETIRED, BUT SHE STEPPED IN TO LEAD THE SANTA FE PUBLIC SCHOOLS DISTRICT AS INTERIM SUPERINTENDENT, HER THIRD TIME IN THAT JOB.

GARCIA REMAINS A PASSIONATE ADVOCATE FOR IMPROVING OUTCOMES FOR KIDS IN THE NATION'S POOREST STATE.

GARCIA JOINED CORRESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS THIS WEEK TO TALK ABOUT WHERE WE'RE FALLING SHORT FOR KIDS AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO TURN THINGS AROUND.

>> Russell: DR. VERONICA GARCIA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> Garcia: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Russell: WHEN YOU AND I FIRST TALKED AFTER YOUR APPOINTMENT AS THE STATE'S FIRST PUBLIC EDUCATION SECRETARY, THIS IS BACK IN 2003, THERE WAS A LOT OF EXCITEMENT AROUND ACCOUNTABILITY AND EDUCATION REFORM.

TODAY, THAT'S ALMOST ALL GONE.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> Garcia: WELL, THAT'S-- I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN EVEN ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

I THINK WE'VE TAKEN FOR GRANTED SOME OF THE GROUNDWORK, WHAT IT TOOK TO BE ABLE TO HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY.

WE DIDN'T HAVE A UNIQUE STUDENT IDENTIFIER WHERE WE COULD FOLLOW KIDS FROM ONE SCHOOL TO ANOTHER.

WE DIDN'T HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE BUILT FOR ALL OF THAT.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, WE PUT THOSE THINGS IN PLACE TO HAVE BETTER ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY, AND THEN WE HAD NCLB.

AND I THINK THAT-- >> Russell: NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, RIGHT?

>> Garcia: NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND.

AND IT WAS SET UP IN A PARADIGM THAT EVENTUALLY NO ONE WAS GOING TO MAKE AYP.

AND IT CRATERED UNDER ITS OWN WEIGHT.

AND SINCE THEN, I THINK THAT AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL AND AT THE STATE LEVEL THE ONLY CONSISTENT ACCOUNTABILITY MEASURE THAT WE'VE HAD IS NAEP.

AND KIDS DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

TEACHERS DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T TRACK TO THE CLASSROOM, TO THE SCHOOL, OR THE DISTRICT.

I MEAN, TO THE SCHOOL, RATHER.

I THINK WITH THE CONSTANT CHANGES IN ASSESSMENTS, PEOPLE GEAR UP FOR AN ASSESSMENT AND IT'S CHANGED AFTER FOUR OR FIVE YEARS, AND WHATNOT.

I JUST THINK PEOPLE SOMETIMES DON'T SEE THE RELEVANCE.

>> Russell: AND NAEP IS THE NATIONAL REPORT CARD, CORRECT?

>> Garcia: THE NATIONAL-- YES, THE NATIONAL ASSESSMENT FOR EDUCATIONAL PROGRESS.

WHICH, UNDER THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NOW, I DON'T KNOW WILL CONTINUE.

>> Russell: RIGHT.

YOU CAME TO OFFICE AFTER VOTERS APPROVED SCRAPPING THE OLD ELECTED EDUCATION BOARD WITH THE STATE SUPERINTENDENT.

NOW, THERE'S SOME DEMOCRATS WHO WANT TO BRING THIS BACK.

WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM WITH THE OLD SYSTEM?

>> Garcia: THE SYSTEM BEFORE WE HAD A CABINET LEVEL SECRETARY >> Russell: EXACTLY RIGHT.

>> Garcia: WELL, I THINK BECAUSE WE HAD ELECTED AND APPOINTED MEMBERS, AND FROM VARIOUS PARTS OF THE STATE, AND I WANT YOU TO THINK OF A PARADIGM WHERE THE STATE-- WITH THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT.

APS IS AN ANOMALY WITH SEVEN BOARD MEMBERS.

MOST HAVE FIVE, RIGHT?

THAT'S TOUGH ENOUGH MANAGING A BOARD OF FIVE.

CAN YOU IMAGINE HAVING 12 AND 15 BOARD MEMBERS, OR 17, TO ANSWER TO?

WHO ARE TRYING TO COALESCE AROUND AN AGENDA.

AND I THINK TO HAVE DONE SOMETHING, UNDER THIS CURRENT STATE OF WHERE WE ARE IN POLITICS IN THE COUNTRY, THE VITRIOL THE DIVISIVENESS, TO TRY AND MOVE AN AGENDA FORWARD WOULD BE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

ACCOUNTABILITY, RIGHT NOW, IS WITH THE SECRETARY AND THE GOVERNOR.

AND ULTIMATELY THE GOVERNOR, RIGHT?

YOU CAN'T LIKE WHERE EDUCATION IS GOING, DON'T RE-ELECT THEM.

WITH A 15 OR 13-MEMBER BOARD, IT'S DIFFUSED.

AND THEN, THERE'S THE OTHER PART OF IT THAT PEOPLE FORGET THAT THE PUBLIC ED DEPARTMENT IS AN AGENCY OR A DEPARTMENT WITHIN A LARGER STATE BUREAUCRACY.

AND IF YOU NEED A PURCHASE ORDER APPROVED OR, YOU KNOW, MONEY BEING TRANSFERRED IN OR OUT, YOU HAVE TO GO TO DFA.

YOU WANT TO HIRE SOMEBODY, YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE STATE PERSONNEL OFFICE.

YOU NEED CARS?

YOU HAVE TO GO TO ANOTHER DEPARTMENT.

YOU'RE NOT ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH THEM ANYMORE IF YOU'RE NOT PART OF THE GOVERNOR'S CABINET.

SO, I THINK THAT MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE EXECUTIVE AND YOU HAVE TO COORDINATE WITH ALL THESE VARIOUS DEPARTMENTS.

BEING A COLLEAGUE AND CO-EQUAL THERE MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

SO, I THOUGHT IT WAS A BAD MOVE TO GO BACK.

>> Russell: SOME DEMOCRATS ACTUALLY WANT TO BRING THAT SYSTEM BACK BECAUSE-- >> Garcia: I KNOW.

>> Russell: THEY SAY THERE'S INSTABILITY IN THE PED.

>> Garcia: WELL, BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, TURNOVER IN RECENT TIMES.

BUT I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TURNOVERS IN OTHER DEPARTMENTS.

NOBODY ELSE IS CLAMORING FOR THOSE TO BE CHANGED, RIGHT?

>> Russell: YOU WERE A STABLE PED SECRETARY.

>> Garcia: SEVEN YEARS.

>> Russell: SEVEN YEARS.

AND EVEN UNDER-- >> Garcia: AND MY POSITION ONLY WAS THERE BECAUSE THE FIRST YEAR IT WAS NOT THERE.

>> Russell: RIGHT.

AND, YOU KNOW, GOVERNOR MARTINEZ HAD TWO.

>> Garcia: TWO.

AND THIS ADMINISTRATION, YOU'VE HAD SIX CHANGES IN SIX YEARS.

WHAT DOES THAT TURNOVER SAY, AND HOW DOES THIS SHIFT PUBLIC EDUCATION?

>> Garcia: WELL, I CAN'T REALLY JUDGE WHY THOSE DECISIONS WERE MADE OR WHAT THAT SAYS, BUT I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN A THROUGHLINE IN TERMS OF WHAT THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH.

AND THAT'S IMPORTANT.

BUT IT IS DIFFICULT TO ADJUST TO VARIOUS PERSONALITIES FOR THE PEOPLE OUT AT THE SCHOOLS, IN TERMS OF HOW THE PED OPERATES, RIGHT, AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THEY SET FOR COMMUNICATING WITH SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

>> Russell: I REMEMBER YOUR FIRST TOWN HALL MEETING, '03, '04, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.

IT WAS AT BERNALILLO HIGH SCHOOL.

AND THIS IS A SCHOOL DISTRICT WITH A LARGE NATIVE AMERICAN POPULATION.

>> Garcia: YOU HAVE A GREAT MEMORY.

>> Russell: YEAH.

[BOTH LAUGH] BUT I REMEMBER YOU POSTING, IN THE TALK, YOU POSTED THE PROFICIENCY SCORES OF STUDENTS IN MATH AND READING.

AND THERE WAS SILENCE IN THE ROOM.

AND YOU, BASICALLY, SAID NOW YOU KNOW THE DATA.

NOW YOU KNOW WE HAVE WORK TO DO.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE NOT SEEING THOSE GAINS WE WANT, AND DESPITE THE COURT ORDER, YAZZIE/MARTINEZ, WHAT IS STOPPING US AT THAT MOMENT?

>> Garcia: WELL, I HAVE A THEORY THAT I THINK IS BASED IN RESEARCH.

AND THAT IS THAT WE PASSED-- I CAN'T REMEMBER THE YEAR.

IF IT WAS '04.

I THINK IT WAS '04, MAYBE '05.

BUT THE PRE-K ACT.

DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

>> Russell: YES.

>> Garcia: AND IT WAS FOR UNIVERSAL PRE-K. AND WE WORKED WITH DIANE DENISH AND CYFD AND PED.

THE GOVERNOR GAVE THAT TO THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR TO SPEARHEAD.

WE GOT IT PASSED.

AND WE HAD A ROLLOUT.

IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE IN FOUR YEARS, AND WE COMPROMISED TO A SEVEN-YEAR ROLLOUT.

AND GUESS WHAT HAPPENED IN�'08?

WE HAD A RECESSION, AND THE FUNDING STOPPED.

AND WE LOST, YOU KNOW, A WHOLE DECADE OF KIDS THAT WE DID NOT PROVIDE UNIVERSAL PRE-K. BECAUSE SO MANY OF OUR KIDS COME TO SCHOOL NOT EVER EVEN KNOWING HOW TO OPEN A BOOK.

NOT READ TO, DON'T KNOW THEIR COLORS, THEY DON'T KNOW THEIR BASIC LETTERS, THEIR NUMBERS.

AND THE RESEARCH TELLS US THAT KIDS WHO ARE IN PRE-K ARE MOST LIKELY TO BE READING BY THIRD GRADE.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE READING AT THIRD GRADE?

YOU'RE MOST LIKELY TO GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL.

WHEN I WAS AT VOICES WE BROUGHT IN, YOU KNOW, TOP ECONOMISTS.

ONE WAS A NOBEL PRIZE WINNER.

TALK ABOUT THE RETURN ON INVESTMENT.

SO, WE CAN INVEST IN WALL STREET, OR WE CAN INVEST IN OUR KIDS.

FOR EVERY DOLLAR YOU INVEST, YOU GET EIGHT DOLLARS BACK.

SO, NOW THAT WE DO HAVE UNIVERSAL PRE-K, AND I PRAY TO GOD THAT WE DON'T GO INTO A RECESSION AGAIN AND WE STOP THE FUNDING, ALTHOUGH NOW IT'S COMING FROM THE PERMANENT FUND, IT TOOK US-- GOSH, BECAUSE I WORKED WITH ALLEN SANCHEZ ON THAT BOARD FOR GETTING THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT FOR UNIVERSAL PRE-K.

VERY POPULAR.

AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I REALLY DO.

IF WE CAN JUST STICK WITH IT, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE THESE KIDS WHO ARE IN PRE-K MAKING THE GAINS THAT WE NEED BECAUSE THEY'RE GETTING A FRESH START.

THEY'RE GETTING STARTED WHILE THERE IS-- THE BRAIN IS STILL DEVELOPING AND WE STILL HAVE CHANCES TO MITIGATE THE IMPACTS OF POVERTY FOR THESE CHILDREN.

>> Russell: SINCE YOU LEFT THE PED, NEW MEXICO CONSISTENTLY HAS RANKED 49th AND 50th IN A LOT OF BENCHMARKS IN EDUCATION.

YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THOSE RANKINGS, WHY?

>> Garcia: WELL, I TALKED TO PEOPLE FROM THE CASEY FOUNDATION BECAUSE IT'S A ZERO-SUM GAME.

LET'S SAY WE ALL IMPROVE BY 10%, OR LET'S JUST SAY WE ALL IMPROVE BY 30%, SOMEBODY IS STILL GOING TO BE AT THE BOTTOM, EVEN IF IT'S A FRACTIONAL PERCENTAGE POINT.

I FEEL LIKE WE SHOULD HAVE A STANDARD.

LIKE, TO BE AN A STATE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THESE FACTORS.

OR A B, OR A C, OR PLATINUM, SILVER, GOLD.

YOU KNOW, LABEL IT HOWEVER YOU WANT, BUT SHOULDN'T WE WANT ALL STATES TO HAVE CERTAIN BENCHMARKS AND MEET THOSE CRITERIA?

YOU KNOW, WE DON'T DO THAT WITH KIDS IN SCHOOL.

WE DON'T SAY, ALL RIGHT, WELL YOU'RE NUMBER ONE IN YOUR CLASS.

WELL, WE DO FOR GRADUATING, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING.

EVERYBODY COULD GET AN A IF THEY STRIVE AND MEET THOSE STANDARDS.

I THINK THAT IT HAS DONE MORE HARM BECAUSE IT BECOMES A SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY.

IF PEOPLE LOOK AT YOU AND SAY OH, MY GOD, YOU'RE STILL 50th, YOU'RE 49th, WHY DO WE WANT TO BRING OUR COMPANIES HERE TO INVEST IN YOUR STATE?

WHY WOULD FAMILIES-- WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO RELOCATE THEIR FAMILIES IF YOUR EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM IS FAILING?

WHEREAS, BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT THE PERCENTAGE POINTS, SOME OF THE VARIATION IS FAIRLY SMALL.

BUT YOU STILL GOT TO RANK THEM ONE THROUGH FIFTY.

I THINK IT'S DONE MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

>> Russell: SURE.

THIS LEGISLATIVE SESSION, WE DIDN'T GET LOT OF MAJOR EDUCATION REFORMS.

IT WAS NOT A LOT OF BOLD THINKING.

I THINK OF CLASS SIZE, A NUMBER OF THINGS.

THE YAZZIE/MARTINEZ WASN'T ADDRESSED.

WHAT IS STOPPING US FROM THINKING BOLDLY ON ED REFORM?

>> Garcia: WELL, ONE OF THE TOUGH PARTS-- WHEN WE LOOK AT MEDICINE, RIGHT, DOCTORS, OR LAW, MOST OF US HAVE NOT BEEN WORKING IN LAW OFFICE FOR 12 YEARS OURSELF LIVES OR SPENT, YOU KNOW, 12 YEARS OF OUR LIVES AT THE DENTIST.

BUT EVERYBODY'S SPENT 12 YEARS OF THEY'RE LIVES IN SCHOOL.

AND EVERYBODY BELIEVES THEY'RE AN EXPERT.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT, OFTENTIMES, WE REALLY LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE THAT DO THE WORK ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK COULD MAKE A BOLD AND BIG DIFFERENCE WAS ONE PROBLEM.

THE SECOND IS THAT IT'S�-- POVERTY IS A HUGE ISSUE.

IF WE LOOK AT MOST SCHOOL DISTRICTS, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE DISTRICT THAT I'M HELPING WITH RIGHT NOW AT SANTA FE AS INTERIM SUPER INTENDANT, IF WE LOOK AT ZIP CODE, WE'VE GOT SCHOOLS AT 80th PERCENTILE, 75th PERCENTILE PROFICIENT.

SOME APPROACHING, YOU KNOW, 90%.

AND WHEN WE LOOK WHERE PROFICIENCY IS LOWER, IT'S IN LOWER-INCOME COMMUNITIES.

CHILDREN WHO SPEAK A LANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT YAZZIE/MARTINEZ WAS TRYING TO ADDRESS.

FROM AN EQUITY PERSPECTIVE, WE HAVE TO DO MORE FOR THOSE KIDS TO LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD TO GIVE THEM A SHOT.

THIS IS WHERE I THINK PRE-K IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT'S GOING TO HAVE HIGH IMPACT.

I THINK THE OTHER-- AND I THINK THAT THE INDIAN EDUCATION ACT AND THE TRIBAL TRUST FUND THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IS THAT WHEN YOU LOSE THE LANGUAGE, YOU LOSE THE CULTURE.

IF KIDS DON'T FEEL GOOD ABOUT WHO THEY ARE AS HUMAN BEINGS, THAT ALSO IMPACTS THEM, RIGHT?

SO, IT'S TAKING TIME.

I THINK THERE'S BEEN TREMENDOUS INVESTMENT, BUT WE STILL HAVE A WAY TO GO.

BUT I THINK WE'RE ON THE RIGHT PATH.

>> Russell: DR. GARCIA, YOU ARE NOW THE INTERIM SUPERINTENDENT FOR SANTA FE PUBLIC SCHOOLS AS THEY LOOK FOR THEIR NEXT LEADER.

YOU'VE BEEN IN EDUCATION FOR NEARLY HALF A CENTURY.

>> Garcia: YES.

>> Russell: IT SEEMS LIKE A LONG TIME, BUT YOU ARE SEMI-RETIRED AND YOU'RE STILL IN THE GAME.

AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, WHAT KEEPS YOU HOPEFUL THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE ED REFORM THAT, AS WE MOVE ON, MORE KIDS WILL BE ABLE TO READ, MORE KIDS WILL BE ABLE TO DO MATH?

WHAT KEEPS YOU SO HOPEFUL THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THAT SPOT?

>> Garcia: WELL, WHEN YOU LOSE HOPE YOU'VE LOST IT ALL, RIGHT?

AND WHEN I SEE YOUNG PEOPLE, AND I TALK TO THEM, AND I SEE THE THINGS THAT THEY ACCOMPLISH AND HOW SMART THEY ARE.

AND I SEE KINDERGARTENERS AND FIRST GRADERS CODING AND DO ROBOTICS AND KIDS APPLYING FOR SCHOLARSHIPS TO GO TO IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS AND ARE ABLE TO GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL AND BE AN LPN AND HAVE AN ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE.

I THINK THAT THE TEST SCORES, SOMETIMES, DON'T REALLY TELL US THE WHOLE PICTURE OF HOW OUR KIDS ARE DOING.

AND THERE ARE AMAZING THINGS HAPPENING.

AND I JUST FEEL, YOU KNOW, I SEE THE DEDICATED TEACHERS AND PRINCIPALS AND-- ACROSS THE STATE BECAUSE I STILL WORK WITH PEOPLE AROUND THE STATE.

I STILL DO EXECUTIVE COACHING WITH ASPIRING SUPERINTENDENTS.

AND THERE'S PEOPLE THAT STILL HAVE A FIRE IN THE BELLY FOR EDUCATION AND THE POWER AND WHAT DIFFERENCE IT CAN MAKE.

AND ALL OF THAT COMBINED-- AND I'M VERY HOPEFUL FOR THE YOUNG LEADERS THAT I SEE IN THE LEGISLATURE.

AND THE YOUNG LEADERS COMING UP-- I SAY YOUNG, COMPARISON TO MYSELF, THAT ARE GOING TO BE SUPERINTENDENTS AND LEADERS IN THEIR SCHOOLS.

AND THEY GAVE ME GREAT HOPE.

>> Russell: DR. GARCIA, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> Garcia: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Lou: THANKS TO SANTA FE SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT VERONICA GARCIA, AND TO CORESPONDENT RUSSELL CONTRERAS.

NOW, WE'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THIS WEEK'S SHOW FOCUSING ON OUTCOMES FOR NEW MEXICO CHILDREN.

AND WE WANT TO STICK WITH THAT THEME BY REVISITING AN INTERVIEW FROM BACK IN FEBRUARY THAT HIGHLIGHTS A SOLUTIONS-ORIENTED PROGRAM.

ACCORD TO THE STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, YOUNG PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO ARE SUBJECTED TO THE HIGHEST RATES OF ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES IN THE NATION.

NEARLY ONE IN FOUR KIDS HERE HAS EXPERIENCED OR BEEN EXPOSED TO FOUR OR MORE INSTANCES OF ABUSE, NEGLECT, OR HOUSEHOLD DYSFUNCTION BEFORE THEIR 18th BIRTHDAYS.

THESE EXPERIENCES, KNOWN AS ACES, CAN ADD UP AND HAVE DEVASTATING EFFECTS ON CHILDREN.

THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO'S PROJECT ECHO WANTS TO COUNTERACT THE IMPACTS OF ACES EARLY ON.

THE IDEA IS TO HEAD OFF SEVERAL CHRONIC CONDITIONS IN ADULTHOOD.

THOSE INCLUDE DEPRESSION, DIABETES, AND HEART DISEASE.

IN AN INTERVIEW WE FIRST AIRED IN FEBRUARY, I SAT DOWN WITH PROJECT ECHO'S DR. EVELYN PLUMB, A TAOS-BASED CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST TO DISCUSS WHY ECHO CHOSE THIS FIGHT.

>> Lou: DR. EVELYN PLUMB, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Plumb: I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE, LOU, THANK YOU.

>> Lou: YEAH.

NOW, JEFF JUST LAID OUT THE PROBLEM, THE PREVALENCE OF ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES AMONG PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT EXACTLY QUALIFIES AS ONE OF THOSE ADVERSE EXPERIENCES, AND WHERE ARE WE SEEING THEM?

>> Plumb: ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S ACTUALLY PRETTY SPECIFIC WHAT QUALIFIES AS AN ADVERSE CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCE.

I'LL USE THE ACRONYM ACES BECAUSE IT'S A MOUTHFUL.

THERE ARE THREE BROAD CATEGORIES.

THERE'S ABUSE, AND THAT COULD BE PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL, OR SEXUAL.

THERE'S NEGLECT, WHICH COULD BE EMOTIONAL OR PHYSICAL.

AND THEN THERE'S THE BROADER CATEGORY, WHICH IS CALLED HOUSEHOLD DYSFUNCTION.

AND THAT COVERS ALL SORTS OF BEHAVIORS THAT INCLUDE A HOUSEHOLD OR A CLOSE FAMILY MEMBER WHO IS INCARCERATED, HOUSEHOLD OR FAMILY MEMBER WHO HAS SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS THAT'S NOT EFFECTIVELY MANAGED, ALSO FAMILY MEMBER WHO HAS A SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER WHICH I'LL SAY IS ALSO A MENTAL ILLNESS, BUT BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A PROMINENT FACET OF ACES WE BREAK IT OUT SEPARATELY.

AND ALSO WHEN THERE'S A HIGH DEGREE OF DISCORD IN THE HOUSEHOLD, USUALLY WE THINK OF THAT AS BETWEEN PARENTS OR CAREGIVERS, BUT IT COULD BE BETWEEN OTHER HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS.

AND ALSO EXPOSURE TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

THAT'S, PERHAPS, THE CHILD IS NOT ACTUALLY BEING PHYSICALLY HURT THEMSELVES, BUT THEY'RE WITNESSING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN THE HOUSEHOLD AND WE'VE DISCOVERED THAT IN ITSELF IS VERY DAMAGING.

>> Lou: OKAY.

WHAT ARE THE BROADER TYPES OF PROBLEMS OR CONTEXTS OF THOSE ACES THAT NEW MEXICO KIDS ARE FACING THAT MAKES THIS SUCH A SERIOUS PROBLEM, HERE IN PARTICULAR, AS OPPOSED TO OTHER STATES?

>> Plumb: YEAH, IT REALLY IS A DIRE PROBLEM IN NEW MEXICO.

THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH RELEASED AN ADVISORY IN 2022 THAT NEW MEXICO HAD THE HIGHEST ACES OUT OF ALL OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO, IT REALLY BROUGHT OUR ATTENTION TO THE ISSUE.

THERE'S A BIGGER STORY THERE, A VERY DETAILED ONE, IN TERMS OF WHY NEW MEXICO SUFFERS SO MUCH WITH ACES.

BUT THE BIGGEST LAYER HAS TO DO WITH THE COMBINATION OF ACES WITH WHAT ARE CALLED SOCIAL DETERMINANTS OF HEALTH.

SO, THOSE ARE CHARACTERISTICS THAT STRUCTURE OUR LIVES IN FORMATIVE WAYS.

THESE ARE THINGS LIKE WHERE WE LIVE, HOW MUCH MONEY OUR FAMILY MAKES, AND VERY CLOSE CONNECTION, WHAT ARE OUR ACCESS IS LIKE TO HIGH-QUALITY CHILDCARE, EDUCATION, AND HEALTH CARE.

AND ALL OF THESE DETERMINANTS OF HEALTH CAN SET US OFF ON DIFFERENT PATHS IN LIFE VARIOUSLY TO SUCCESS OR MUCH MORE CHALLENGING PATHS.

AND THESE INTERACT VERY CLOSELY WITH ACES.

SO IF, FOR EXAMPLE, A CHILD MAYBE HAS ONE OR TWO ACES, BUT THEY'RE VERY LUCKY IN TERMS OF SOCIAL DETERMINANTS, PERHAPS THEY COME FROM A VERY AFFLUENT FAMILY, THEY LIVE IN A VERY SAFE COMMUNITY, THEY HAVE ACCESS TO HIGH-QUALITY EDUCATION AND HEALTH CARE, THEN THEY HAVE BUFFERS.

THEY HAVE A LOT OF QUALITIES IN THEIR LIVES THAT ARE GOING TO MITIGATE THE EFFECTS OF THOSE ACES SO THAT THEY'RE NOT EXPERIENCING SO MUCH OF THAT TOXIC STRESS, WHICH LEADS TO THE DOWNSTREAM EFFECTS THAT WE WORRY ABOUT WITH ACES.

IN NEW MEXICO, WE'RE REALLY MISSING A LOT OF THOSE BUFFERS FOR MANY CHILDREN, ESPECIALLY WHO LIVE IN RURAL AREAS, OR WHO COME FROM OTHERWISE UNDER-SERVED POPULATIONS.

THERE'S JUST NOT A LOT OF PROTECTION BETWEEN HAVING THOSE ACES HAPPEN TO THEM, AND THE LIKELY DOWNSTREAM CONSEQUENCES.

SO, A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THESE STRUCTURAL FACTORS OF CHILD POVERTY AND LACK OF ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE AND EDUCATION.

>> Lou: I WANT TO FOCUS ON THAT LACK OF ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE JUST FOR A MINUTE, THE NATURE OF OUR STATE, RURAL AREAS IN PARTICULAR.

HOW DO YOU BRIDGE THE GAP WITH FOLKS IN THOSE AREAS WHO MAY BE DISTRUSTFUL OF-- OR AT LEAST HESITANT TO GET A REGULAR DOCTOR'S APPOINTMENT FOR THEMSELVES OR EVEN THEIR CHILDREN?

>> Plumb: YEAH, THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION.

THIS IS ACTUALLY A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF WHAT WE DO WITH PROJECT ECHO, SPECIFICALLY, BECAUSE A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE MODEL IS HOW WE ARE TRYING TO CONNECT THAT DIVIDE BETWEEN THE ACADEMY AND THEN COMMUNITY PROVIDERS BECAUSE WE DO KNOW THAT COMMUNITY PROVIDERS ARE BEST SITUATED TO BE WELCOMING AND INVITING TO PEOPLE IN RURAL AREAS.

AND COMMUNITIES THAT ARE WELL INTEGRATED INTO THEIR COMMUNITIES ARE MUCH MORE ACCESSIBLE, BOTH PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND PHYSICALLY, OF COURSE FOR RURAL RESIDENTS.

SO, A BIG PART OF THE EDUCATION THAT WE DO WITH PROVIDERS IN RURAL AREAS IS AROUND TRAUMA-INFORMED CARE.

AND THAT'S ABOUT MAKING THEIR CLINICS AND THEIR VISITS AS WELCOMING AND INVITING AND COLLABORATIVE AS THEY CAN.

AND TAKING INTO ACCOUNT FACTORS THAT MAY INFLUENCE THOSE VISITORS' SENSE OF APPREHENSION OF BEING ENGAGED WITH THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

>> Lou: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT THAT THESE ADVERSE EXPERIENCES, ACES, CAN HAVE STARTING WITH SHORT TERM.

THE MOST RECENT KIDS COUNT DATA CITES ACES AS A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR FOR KIDS FALLING BEHIND AT SCHOOL.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW THESE EXPERIENCES AFFECT A CHILD'S HEALTH AND THE RIPPLE EFFECT THAT CAN HAVE ON THE REST OF THEIR LIVES AS A KID?

>> Plumb: YES.

THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.

SO, THE BROADER EXPLANATORY MECHANISM IN TERMS OF HOW ACES LEAD TO TOXIC STRESS WHICH THEN LEAD TO PHYSIOLOGICAL, SOCIAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL NEGATIVE OUTCOMES IS THAT THERE'S A PROLONGED ACTIVATION OF THE STRESS RESPONSE.

SO, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE WAY THE HUMAN BRAIN IS MEANT TO FUNCTION WITH STRESS, IT'S REALLY WELL DESIGNED FOR ACUTE, SHORT PERIODS OF STRESS.

LIKE GETTING AWAY FROM A TIGER IN THE JUNGLE.

WE WANT OUR BODY TO BE IN FULL STRESS RESPONSE.

THE PROBLEM WITH ACES IS THAT DEFINITIVELY THEY ARE CHRONIC.

THEY'RE ONGOING, OR THEY HAVE ONGOING IMPACTS.

SO, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE TIGER LIVES IN THE HOUSE WITH YOU.

SO, YOU NEVER GET A REPRIEVE FROM THAT STRESS RESPONSE.

AND OUR BODIES WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT.

FOR CHILDREN ESPECIALLY, THEIR BRAINS AND THEIR BODIES ARE STILL VERY MUCH UNDER DEVELOPMENT.

AND THEY'RE IN THESE SENSITIVE FORMATIVE PERIODS.

THAT CAN ACTUALLY FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE BRAIN ARCHITECTURE AND ORGAN DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE THIS CHILD IS BASICALLY BEING WIRED TO LIVE IN A SURVIVAL STATE.

THAT MEANS THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO DEVOTE RESOURCES TO THINGS LIKE HOMEWORK AND FORMING POSITIVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH PEERS AND FAMILY MEMBERS.

THEY'RE JUST ALWAYS ON HIGH ALERT.

WE KNOW THAT FOR CHILDREN THERE'S A LOT OF SOCIAL AND BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS FOR CHILDREN WITH FOUR OR MORE ACES THEY'RE 30 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO HAVE A DIAGNOSED SOCIAL OR BEHAVIORAL PROBLEM IN SCHOOL.

AND THEN LATER ON IN LIFE WE SO SOCIAL OUTCOMES SUCH AS TEEN PREGNANCY AND PATERNITY.

YOU'RE, IN ALL LIKELIHOOD, LIKELY TO BE INCARCERATED.

UNEMPLOYMENT, LOWER EDUCATIONAL ENTERTAINMENT, ADULTS WITH FOUR OR MORE ACES ARE 15 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO ATTEMPT SUICIDE THAN THOSE WITH LOWER OR NO ACES.

DEPRESSION, ANXIETY, A WHOLE RANGE OF CHRONIC DISEASES FROM HEART DISEASE, ALZHEIMER'S AND DEMENTIA, I THINK THAT'S AN 11-FOLD INCREASE FOR THOSE WITH FOUR OR MORE ACES.

STROKE, ALL KINDS OF CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASES, DIABETES.

YOU NAME IT.

>> Lou: HOW DOES HAVING SO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THESE TYPES OF EXPERIENCES, HOW DOES IT IMPACT OUR STATE AS A WHOLE?

AND CAN SOME OF OUR STRUGGLES, WHETHER IT BE EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES, INCARCERATION, CRIME IN GENERAL, DO YOU THINK THERE COULD BE A SIGNIFICANT DECLINE IF WE WERE ABLE TO GET A HANDLE ON THESE AS A SOCIETY?

>> Plumb: ABSOLUTELY.

YES.

THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF WHAT WE'RE DOING WITH THE ACES ECHO.

IN FACT, ONE OF THE BIG METRICS THAT WE SEE WITH OUR PARTICIPANTS THAT WAS REALLY HEARTENING FOR US IS THEY RATE THINGS LIKE HOW LIKELY THEY ARE TO USE AN INTERVENTION THAT THEY LEARNED DURING AN ECHO IN THEIR NEXT SESSION OR SOMETHING.

AND ONE OF THE NUMBERS THAT WE SEE IN THERE THAT'S VERY HIGH IS A FEELING OF HOPE THAT ACES ARE PREVENTIBLE AND TREATABLE.

THIS IS A REALLY HUGE PART OF THE CAMPAIGN WITH THIS ECHO IS IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT THE CONCRETE, THE TECHNICAL SKILLS ABOUT HOW TO WORK WITH CHILDREN WITH ACES, I THINK IT'S ABOUT LIFTING THE MORALE AND REALLY GALVANIZING PROVIDERS AND EDUCATORS.

BECAUSE I THINK WHEN WE JUST HEAR THE BARE STATISTICS, THEY'RE SO GRIM.

IT CAN REALLY LEAVE US FEELING LIKE, WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THIS.

ALL OF THE EVIDENCE SUBSTANTIATES THAT ACES ARE BOTH PREVENTABLE AND TREATABLE.

AND THAT TREATING THE DOWNSTREAM EFFECTS, THE TOXIC STRESS IN ADULTS, HELPS US TO PREVENT TRANSMISSION TO CHILDREN BOTH EXISTING CHILDREN AND FUTURE CHILDREN OF THOSE ADULTS.

YES, THERE'S A LOT THAT CAN BE DONE.

>> Lou: THANKS AGAIN TO DR. EVELYN PLUMB.

YOU CAN WATCH THE SECOND HALF OF OUR CONVERSATION RIGHT NOW ON THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

AS OF LAST MONTH, UNM POLICE OFFICERS HAVE FINALLY BEGUN WEARING BODY CAMERAS.

THE MOVE COMES AFTER A YEAR AND A HALF OF REPORTING BY THE DAILY LOBO, UNM'S STUDENT NEWSPAPER, THAT REVEALED THE UNIVERSITY CONSIDERED ITS COPS EXEMPT FROM A STATE LAW PASSED IN 2020 REQUIRING ALL NEW MEXICO COPS TO WEAR CAMERAS.

IT'S A LONG, COMPLICATED STORY, ONE THAT INVOLVES LEGAL LOOPHOLES AND FAILED LEGISLATION.

WE THOUGHT THE BEST PEOPLE TO TELL IT WERE THE REPORTERS WHO HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE TRENCHES SINCE THE BEGINNING.

THAT'S LOBO MANAGING EDITOR LAUREN LIFKE AND EDITOR AND CHIEF LILY ALEXANDER.

EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SAT DOWN WITH BOTH OF THEM THIS WEEK TO BREAK DOWN THE STORY.

>> Jeff: LILY, LAUREN, IT IS DELIGHTFUL TO HAVE YOU BOTH HERE, AND WELCOME BACK TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Lifke: THANK YOU.

GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> Alexander: THANK YOU.

YEAH.

>> Jeff: SO, WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING A FAIR BIT ABOUT CAMERAS TODAY.

AND AS SUCH, I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN BY HITTING THE REWIND BUTTON.

LET'S GO BACK TO NOVEMBER OF 2023, AS THE TWO OF YOU HAVE DONE MANY TIMES DURING YOUR COUPLE OF YEARS AT THE LOBO, YOU WROTE A STORY THAT STIRRED UP SOME TROUBLE AND STARTED A CONVERSATION.

THIS ONE ABOUT BODY CAMERAS AND UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO COPS, LILY, WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT?

>> Alexander: SO, IN NOVEMBER OF 2023, WE RECEIVED A TIP FROM A LAWYER WHO WAS REPRESENTING A COUPLE OF UNM STUDENTS IN LITIGATION AGAINST UNMPD.

AND HE SAID THAT HE WAS HAVING A HARD TIME GETTING BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE FROM UNMPD.

SO, HIS INITIAL HUNCH THAT, PERHAPS, THEY WERE NOT ALWAYS USING CAMERAS.

WE, THEN, FILED SOME PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS FOR BODY CAM FOOTAGE.

AND ULTIMATELY DID ONE THAT WAS FOR ALL OF THE BODY CAM FOOTAGE EVER.

IT CAME BACK WITH NO RESPONSE OF RECORDS AND WE WERE ABLE TO DEDUCE THEY DID NOT HAVE OR USE THE DEVICES.

AT THE TIME, WE ALSO SPOKE TO THE THEN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ACLU OF NEW MEXICO, PETER SIMONSON, AND HE INFORMED US ABOUT A LOOPHOLE IN THE STATE STATUTE THAT REQUIRES MOST POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE STATE TO USE BODY-WORN CAMERAS.

UNIVERSITY POLICE ARE NOT EXPLICITLY INCLUDED, NOR ARE THEY EXPLICITLY EXCLUDED FROM THE STATUTE, BUT THAT IS THE REASONING UNMPD WAS USING FOR NOT HAVING THE CAMERAS.

>> Jeff: IN OTHER WORDS, THEIR INTERPRETATION OF THAT 2019 STATUTE WAS, "WE'RE NOT SUBJECT TO THIS."

>> Alexander: RIGHT.

YEAH.

>> Jeff: OKAY.

GOTCHA.

BEFORE WE GET TOO FAR ALONG HERE, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHY BODY CAMERAS MATTER.

IN A PAST LIFE, I DID A TON OF REPORTING ON THESE DEVICES, ESPECIALLY AS THEY STARTED TO HIT THE SCENE IN THE EARLY 2010s.

AS IT TURNS OUT, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN LIKE THE PANACEA OF POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY THAT MANY REFORMERS HOPED THEY WERE.

BUT IT DOES SEEM TO ME THAT WE'RE PROBABLY BETTER OFF WITH THEM THAN WITHOUT.

LAUREN, I'M CURIOUS, WHAT DID YOU TURN UP IN THE COURSE OF YOUR REPORTING THAT MIGHT DEMONSTRATE WHY BODY CAMERAS WOULD HAVE MATTERED ON CAMPUS?

>> Lifke: SO, BODY CAMERAS, IT'S BEEN UNIVERSALLY AGREED THAT THEY'RE BENEFICIAL TO BOTH COMMUNITY AND TO COPS FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

BUT THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW SITUATIONS AT UNM WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN-- THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPORTANT TO HAVE, HAD THAT BEEN AVAILABLE.

THERE WAS ONE SITUATION WHERE THERE WAS A LAWYER REPRESENTING STUDENTS WHO HAD BEEN ACCUSED OF BREAKING INTO CARS OUTSIDE OF A DORM PARKING LOT.

AND HE COULDN'T REALLY PROVE EITHER WAY BECAUSE THERE WAS NO BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE.

AND A LOT OF PROTESTS THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON.

STARTING IN 2022, THERE WAS THE PROTEST AGAINST CHARLIE KIRK.

THREE STUDENTS WERE ARRESTED THEN.

THERE WAS NO BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE.

ALSO, THE GAZA PROTESTS LAST SPRING, THERE WAS ONLY SECURITY CAMERA FOOTAGE.

AND NEW MEXICO STATE POLICE FOOTAGE.

BUT THERE WAS NOT ANY UNMPD BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE.

THAT WOULD HAVE HELPED SWAY, EITHER WAY.

ALSO, IN TERMS OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS, WE TALKED TO LIEUTENANT TIM DELGADO OF UNMP AND HE ALSO AGREES THEY DO BENEFIT POLICE IN THE SENSE THAT IT AVOIDS ANY FALSE ACCUSATIONS THAT MAY MIGHT DEEM FALSE.

IT CAN KIND OF PROVE OR DISPROVE, EITHER WAY.

>> Jeff: IT'S SORT OF AN IMPARTIAL REFEREE OR ARBITER, THE VIDEO DOESN'T LIE, RIGHT?

>> Lifke: YEAH.

>> Jeff: SO, WE HAVE THIS LEGAL LOOPHOLE, RIGHT, AND UNMPD AT THE TIME, AT LEAST, WAS EXPLOITING IT.

I'LL GO BACK TO YOU, ACTUALLY, LAUREN, WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT FIRST STORY DROPPED?

>> Lifke: SO, IT KIND OF STARTED A CONVERSATION AMONG, AT LEAST UNMPD, UNM OFFICIALS.

AND IT STILL-- THE FIRST STORY DROPPED IN ABOUT NOVEMBER, AND THE SECOND ONE DROPPED IN MARCH.

AND AFTER THAT IS WHEN IT STARTED TO GET A LITTLE MORE PRESS COVERAGE FROM OTHER BIGGER OUTLETS.

AND THAT'S WHEN UNM STARTED TO GET MORE-- ONCE THEY WERE GETTING COVERAGE OUTSIDE OF JUST THE UNM COMMUNITY, THAT'S WHEN THEY STARTED TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION.

SHORTLY AFTER THAT IS WHEN THE PROTESTS HAPPENED.

AND SO, THAT AUGUST IS WHEN WE FIRST TALKED TO UNM AND THEY FIRST STARTED TO IMPLEMENT THOSE BODY CAMERAS BEFORE THERE WAS ANY NEW LAWS INTRODUCED.

>> Jeff: OR AT LEAST SAY THAT THEY WERE IN A CONVERSATION AROUND WE SHOULD PROBABLY DO THIS, RIGHT?

>> Lifke: YEAH.

>> Jeff: OKAY.

SO, LET'S WIND THE TAPE TO NOW.

LILY, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING FROM READING THE LOBO, JUST THIS WEEK AS A MATTER OF FACT, THAT UNM COPS DO HAVE THESE BODY CAMERAS NOW.

WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THAT AND WHEN IT FIRST STARTED?

AND WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE DEVICES THEMSELVES?

>> Alexander: SO, LIKE LAUREN SAID, THEY ANNOUNCED THEY WERE GOING TO IMPLEMENT THEM IN AUGUST.

THEY OFFICIALLY STARTED USING THEM IN MARCH.

SO, THEY'RE AXON CAMERAS, AND THEY ALSO HAVE THE AXON-- STORAGE, CLOUD-BASED STORAGE SYSTEM.

THEY DO NOT HAVE A POLICY YET.

DELGADO TOLD US THAT THEY'RE OPERATING UNDER WHAT HE DESCRIBED AS A PARTIAL POLICY RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS KIND OF-- IT'S NOT OFFICIAL, BUT IT OUTLINES WHEN THE OFFICERS ARE SUPPOSED TO AND TO NOT USE THEIR CAMERAS.

HE SAID, BASICALLY, EVERY INTERACTION WITH THE PUBLIC, EXCEPT FOR IN CASES WHEN OFFICERS ARE ENTERING A HOSPITAL ROOM OR A BATHROOM OR SOME OTHER SENSITIVE AREA.

YEAH, THAT'S WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR.

>> Jeff: BUT THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS WITH THESE THINGS, I READ YOUR STORY, AND BASICALLY, HIS QUOTE WAS "EVERYTHING IS GOING GREAT SO FAR."

BUT IF AN OFFICER FAILS TO TURN ON A CAMERA IN ONE OF THOSE INSTANCES, EXCLUDING GOING INTO A BATHROOM OR A HOSPITAL, RIGHT NOW THERE'S NO WAY TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR NOT DOING THAT.

THEY HAVEN'T VIOLATED POLICY BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ONE.

>> Alexander: RIGHT.

YEAH AND DELGADO SAID THE POLICY THAT HE DRAFTED AND IS CURRENTLY IN THE HR APPROVAL AND GENERAL COUNSEL APPROVAL PROCESS DOES ACCOUNT FOR WHAT TO DO IF AN OFFICER DOESN'T TURN ON THEIR CAMERA WHEN THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO.

NOT TOTALLY CLEAR YET WHAT EXACTLY THE LANGUAGE AROUND THAT IS THOUGH.

>> Jeff: AND WILL THE PUBLIC BE ABLE TO SEE THAT POLICY WHEN IT IS STOOD UP?

>> Alexander: YEAH, HE SAID THAT HE HOPES WITHIN THE NEXT MONTH, AND IT WILL BE IN THE STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES MANUAL, WHICH IS ON UNMPD'S WEBSITE.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

OKAY, SO WE'LL KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR THAT POLICY.

I'M CERTAINLY INTERESTED TO SEE HOW THAT ENDS UP GETTING SPELLED OUT.

WHILE Y'ALL WERE REPORTING ON THIS LEGAL LOOPHOLE, AND THE UNIVERSITY'S CONSIDERATION OF GETTING BODY CAMERAS FOR THEIR COPS, THE LEGISLATURE STEPPED IN.

SO, LAUREN, WHAT WOULD SENATE BILL 505, WHICH BY THE WAY IS A FANTASTIC BILL NAME, RIGHT?

WHAT WOULD THAT BILL HAVE DONE, AND WHAT WAS ITS FATE IN THE 60-DAY SESSION?

>> Lifke: SO, IT INTRODUCED TWO THINGS.

IT INTRODUCED THE EXPLICIT INCLUSION OF UNIVERSITY POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

IT USED TO HAVE A LIST OF ALL OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT WOULD BE SUBJECT TO BODY CAMERAS.

AND IT WAS SUPPOSED TO INCLUDE, BASICALLY, ALL OF THEM.

NOW, IT EXPLICITLY SAYS UNIVERSITY POLICE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT SENATOR CERVANTES INTENDED WHEN HE ORIGINALLY CREATED IT.

BUT THE SECOND PART OF THAT WAS THERE WAS A CHANGE IN LANGUAGE FROM OFFICERS WHO DON'T TURN ON THEIR BODY CAMERAS MAY BE PRESUMED TO HAVE ACTED IN BAD FAITH TO SHALL BE PRESUMED TO HAVE ACTED IN BAD FAITH.

AND THAT'S KIND OF WHERE THERE WAS MORE CONTROVERSY AMONG PUBLIC COMMENTERS.

A LOT OF THE POLICE OFFICERS SHOWED UP TO PUBLIC COMMENT OPPOSING THAT SECTION OF THE BILL AND, ULTIMATELY, IT NEVER MADE ITS WAY THROUGH THE SENATE.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

THIS IS AN INTERESTING LESSON IN LEGISLATIVE INTENT.

YOU ALL STARTED THIS CONVERSATION BY WRITING THIS STORY IN THE LOBO, AND ULTIMATELY GOT TO THE BILL'S SPONSOR WHO WAS LIKE I TOTALLY MEANT UNIVERSITY COPS, BUT IT'S NOT IN THERE EXPLICITLY SPELLED OUT, RIGHT?

>> Lifke: YEAH.

>> Jeff: LILY, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT BAD FAITH CLAUSE.

THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE ONE OF THE REAL STICKING POINTS IN TERMS OF WHY THIS BILL ULTIMATELY FAILED IN THE LEGISLATURE.

WHAT WERE YOU HEARING FROM FOLKS DURING DEBATE, DURING PUBLIC COMMENT, WHAT WERE THESE POLICE CHIEFS SAYING?

>> Alexander: YEAH, EVERY POLICE CHIEF WHO SPOKE WHILE WE ATTENDED THE COMMITTEE MEETINGS WHERE THE BILL WAS HEARD, WAS OPPOSED TO THE CHANGE FROM MAY TO SHALL.

THE GENERAL ARGUMENT WAS SOMETHING LIKE IT ASSUMES THAT OFFICERS ARE ACTING IN BAD FAITH WHEN IN REALITY THEY COULD HAVE FORGOTTEN TO TURN ON THEIR BODY CAMERA, OR A SITUATION UNFOLDED TOO QUICKLY AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO PRESS THE BUTTON.

STUFF LIKE THAT.

NO ONE SEEMS TO BE OPPOSED THE UNIVERSITY PART.

IT WAS JUST REALLY THAT WORD CHANGE WAS A HUGE POINT OF CONTENTION.

AND AMONG LEGISLATORS, AS WELL, WHEN THEY WERE DEBATING.

>> Jeff: SO, ESSENTIALLY, WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IS ANY TIME WE END UP WITH AN INSTANCE WHERE SOME HIGH-PROFILE INCIDENT HAPPENS AND AN OFFICER FAILS TO TURN ON HIS BODY CAMERA, THE PRESUMPTION UNDER THAT LAW IS YOU BROKE THE LAW IF YOU DIDN'T TURN THE CAMERA ON, RIGHT?

>> Alexander: YEAH.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

LAUREN, WHAT DO WE KNOW ULTIMATELY, BEYOND THAT SORT OF CONTENTION AND WHAT WE HEARD FROM PUBLIC COMMENTERS, WHAT ELSE DO WE KNOW ABOUT WHY THE BILL FAILED, IF YOU KNOW?

AND DO WE EXPECT THAT WE MIGHT SEE THIS AGAIN IN THE 2027 60-DAY LEGISLATIVE SESSION?

>> Lifke: SO, WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.

WE TRIED CONTACTING SENATOR CERVANTES THROUGH EMAIL AND PHONE CALLS, BOTH OF US DID, AND WE WEREN'T ABLE TO CONTACT HIM SINCE THE SESSION ENDED.

SO, WE'RE NOT SURE EXACTLY WHY IT DIDN'T PASS.

BUT, YEAH, WE'RE HOPING THAT IT WILL COME BACK NEXT YEAR.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

LAUREN LIFKE, LILY ALEXANDER, THANK YOU BOTH FOR ALL OF YOUR WORK ON THIS ISSUE AND FOR A PRETTY SPECTACULAR COUPLE OF YEARS AT THE LOBO.

I'M EXCITED TO SEE WHAT YOU BOTH DO NEXT.

LILY, YOU AND I WILL BE BACK IN JUST A MINUTE.

>> Lou: THE YEARS-LONG REFUSAL TO EQUIP ITS COPS WITH BODY CAMERAS ISN'T THE ONLY TRANSPARENCY CONTROVERSY INVOLVING UNMPD IN RECENT YEARS.

LAST SPRING, LILY ASKED THE DEPARTMENT FOR A COPY OF ITS WEAPONS INVENTORY.

THEY DENIED HER REQUEST UNDER THE INSPECTION OF PUBLIC RECORDS ACT.

CITING AN EXCEPTION THAT LEANS ON THE POSSIBILITY OF A TERRORIST ATTACK.

SO, LILY SUED THE DEPARTMENT FOR ALLEGED VIOLATIONS OF THAT SUNSHINE LAW.

THE TERRORISM REASONING FOR SHUTTING HER DOWN SOUNDED LIKE DEJA VU TO OUR EXECUTIVE PRODUCER WHO RECALLED THE SAME RATIONALE WHEN JOURNALISTS SUCCESSFULLY SUED THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR ITS WEAPONS INVENTORY, MORE THAN A DECADE AGO.

IN THIS CONVERSATION WITH LILY, JEFF ASKS WHEN SHE FIRST BECAME INTERESTED IN UNMPD'S WEAPONS AND WHERE THE CASE STANDS NOW.

>> Jeff: OKAY, LILY, WELCOME BACK.

WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE GEARS A LITTLE BIT FROM THE CONVERSATION WE JUST HAD WITH LAUREN LIFKE, TO ANOTHER CORNER OF POLICE EQUIPMENT.

THIS TIME, WEAPONS.

SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, YOU AND THE DAILY LOBO BECAME INTERESTED IN WHAT UNMPD HAS IN THE BASEMENT, IN TERMS OF GUNS AND BULLETS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

WHY DID YOU WANT THAT DOCUMENT?

AND WHAT DID UNM SAY WHEN YOU ASKED THEM FOR IT?

>> Alexander: THERE ARE A FEW REASONS THAT I THINK THAT DOCUMENT BEING PUBLIC AND US REPORTING ON IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL TO READERS OF THE LOBO AND WHY I THINK THEY MIGHT WANT TO SEE IT.

ONE OF THEM IS JUST TAXPAYER MONEY THAT GOES TOWARDS UNM AND, HENCE, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

I THINK THAT IS A COMPONENT.

ALSO, MEMBERS OF THE CAMPUS COMMUNITY INTERACT WITH UNMPD ALL THE TIME FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

WHETHER THEY'RE CALLING IN TO REPORT A CRIME, WHETHER THEY ARE PARTICIPATING IN A PROTEST AND UNMPD IS RESPONDING IN SOME WAY.

WHETHER THEY'RE GETTING AN ESCORT TO THEIR CAR IN THE EVENING WHEN IT'S DARK OUT.

SO, I THINK LOBO READERS MAY BE INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT UNMPD IS BRINGING TO THOSE INTERACTIONS.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

SO, YOU MAKE A REQUEST FOR THE WEAPONS INVENTORY UNDER THE INSPECTION OF PUBLIC RECORDS ACT, WHICH IS OUR STATE'S SUNSHINE LAW, WHAT HAPPENED THEN?

>> Alexander: RIGHT.

MY REQUEST WAS DENIED UNDER ONE OF THE EXEMPTIONS TO IPRA.

THE ONE ABOUT TACTICAL SECURITY-- TACTICAL RISK SECURITY PROCEDURES.

AND, YEAH.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

SO THAT VIEWERS ARE CLEAR, THAT EXCEPTION IPRA BASICALLY SAYS WE ARE EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSING DOCUMENTS THAT WOULD SHOW SPECIFIC TACTICAL RESPONSES OR PLANS BECAUSE IT COULD LEAD TO A TERRORIST ATTACK, RIGHT?

>> Alexander: RIGHT.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

SO, I NEARLY FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR WHEN YOU FIRST TOLD ME THAT THEY HAD DENIED THIS REQUEST OF YOURS BECAUSE OF TERRORISM.

PART OF THE REASON THAT I ALMOST FELL OUT OF MY CHAR IS BECAUSE I HEARD THIS BEFORE.

BACK, MANY YEARS AGO, WHEN I WAS WORKING AT A DIFFERENT STATION, A COLLEAGUE AND I WERE FIGHTING WITH THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO GET A COPY OF THEIR WEAPONS INVENTORY.

AND WHAT THEY TOLD US WAS YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BECAUSE TERRORISM.

ANOTHER FRIEND OF OURS, PETER ST. CYR, ULTIMATELY SUED THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT FOR THE WEAPONS INVENTORY AND PREVAILED IN COURT.

I WANT TO READ FOR VIEWERS A LITTLE BIT OF THE ORDER THAT JUDGE ALAN MALOTT PRODUCED IN THAT CASE.

THIS IS WHAT JUDGE MALOTT WROTE.

DEFENDANT'S, MEANING THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE, PROTESTS GENERALLY THE DISCLOSURE OF THE INVENTORY COULD GIVE CRIMINAL ELEMENTS AN ABILITY TO PREDICT POLICE RESPONSE TIMES AND RESPONSE POWER.

THE SAME ARGUMENT MIGHT BE MADE REGARDING THE SIMPLE FACT OF HOW MANY OFFICERS ARE EMPLOYED, DEPLOYED, OR OTHERWISE AVAILABLE IN THE CITY AT ANY GIVEN TIME, THE NUMBER AND CONDITION OF ITS VEHICLES, OR EVEN THE IDENTITY OF PERSONNEL, COMMAND LEVEL OR OTHERWISE.

GIVEN THE CLEARLY EXPANSIVE SCOPE OF IPRA IN PROVIDING CITIZENS INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR GOVERNMENT AND ITS ACTIVITIES, DEFENDANT'S ARGUMENT FOR EXEMPTION UNDER THE TERRORIST ATTACK EXEMPTION IS UNPERSUASIVE.

DID YOU SHOW JUDGE MALOTT'S ORDER TO THE UNIVERSITY IN THE COURSE OF REQUESTING UNMPD'S INVENTORY?

IF YOU DID, WHAT DID THEY SAY?

>> Alexander: YEAH, I SENT THAT TO THE RECORDS CUSTODIAN AFTER THE DENIAL OF MY REQUEST.

AND I ASKED TO HAVE A FOLLOW-UP CONVERSATION WITH HIM AFTER HE HAD REVIEWED IT.

WE DIDN'T END UP HAVING A CONVERSATION.

HE EMAILED ME BACK A FEW DAYS LATER AND SAID THAT UNIVERSITY MAINTAINED THEIR INITIAL POSITION OF THE TERRORISM EXCEPTION.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

I DON'T THINK I'M BREAKING ANY NEWS HERE.

IT'S GOOD AND OUT THERE AT THIS POINT.

THE NEXT THING YOU DID WAS YOU SUED THE UNIVERSITY FOR THAT WEAPONS INVENTORY.

WHAT ARE YOUR CLAIMS IN THAT CASE?

>> Alexander: WELL, OUR POSITION IS THAT THE WEAPONS INVENTORY IS PUBLIC RECORD.

IT'S SUBJECT TO IPRA.

ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THERE MAY BE REDACTIONS FOR PIECES THAT DO ACTUALLY FALL UNDER THAT EXEMPTION, BUT LARGELY, IT IS PUBLIC RECORD.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS?

WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN THIS CASE?

>> Alexander: IT'S POSSIBLE THAT A COURT WILL DECIDE-- LIKE, WILL MAKE A DECISION ON THE CASE THIS SUMMER, BASED ON MOTIONS.

LIKE I SAID, MY LAWYERS HAVE BEEN DOING DEPOSITIONS.

THAT'S CONTINUING.

IF A COURT DOES NOT MAKE A DECISION OVER THE SUMMER, THERE'S A TRIAL DATE SET FOR SEPTEMBER.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

YOUR LAST DAY AS EDITOR AND CHIEF OF THE LOBO IS COMING UP REALLY, REALLY SOON.

JUST SO THE VIEWERS UNDERSTAND, YOU ARE THE PLAINTIFF IN THIS CASE, RIGHT?

NOT THE NEWSPAPER.

SO THE LITIGATION CONTINUES, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE CASE IS RESOLVED BEFORE YOU LEAVE THE PAPER, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> Alexander: YEAH, THAT'S CORRECT.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

OKAY.

LILY ALEXANDER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CATCHING US UP ON THIS LAWSUIT.

GOOD LUCK WITH IT.

IT SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD ONE.

>> Alexander: THANK YOU.

>> Lou: THANKS TO EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR, LILY ALEXANDER, AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THIS SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU