PERSPECTIVE ON A PLAN TO EXPAND THE PRODUCTION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS COMPONENTS AT LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LABORATORY.

THOSE PLANS CENTER AROUND PLUTONIUM PITS, THE CORE WITHIN NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AS YOU MIGHT KNOW.

NOW, THE LAB ITSELF ESTIMATES THOUSANDS OF JOBS WILL BE NEEDED TO EXPAND THE PROJECT, BUT A NON-PROFIT MONITORING THE LAB SAYS IT'LL ALSO COST BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, INCREASE ELECTRICITY DEMANDS, AND PUT WORKERS AND OTHERS AT RISK.

THE LOS ALAMOS STUDY GROUP HAS BEEN TRACKING PROJECTS AT LANL FOR MORE THAN THIRTY YEARS.

OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS SITS DOWN WITH EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR GREG MELLO TO TALK ABOUT THIS LATEST DEVELOPMENT.

>> Laura: GREG MELLO, WELCOME.

>> Greg: THANK YOU, LAURA.

>> Laura: SO WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CHANGES BEING PROPOSED BY LOS ALAMOS NATIONAL LAB FOR ITS OPERATIONS INTO THE FUTURE?

>> Greg: LOS ALAMOS IS CURRENTLY ENGAGED IN THE LARGEST EXPANSION SINCE THE 1950s, SINCE THE EARLY '50s, AND THEY ARE SPECIFICALLY ADDING A FACTORY TO THEIR MISSION MIX.

THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED REALLY SINCE THE 1940s.

SO THEY WANT TO HAVE ABOUT 4000 PEOPLE WORKING ON MANUFACTURING THE PLUTONIUM CORES OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

THAT'S BY FAR THEIR LARGEST GROWTH AREA, AND THIS IS GREATLY INCREASING THE SIZE OF THE LABORATORY OVERALL.

>> Laura: SO EARLIER THIS YEAR IN A STORY AT SEARCHLIGHT NEW MEXICO, ANNABELLA FARMER REPORTED THAT THE LAB FACED A WITHERING REPORT BY THE GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE AND HAS ALREADY SPENT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN MORE THAN 20 YEARS TRYING AND FAILING TO REESTABLISH PIT PRODUCTION, WHICH ARE THESE PLUTONIUM PITS YOU MENTIONED.

>> Greg: YES.

>> Laura: SO WE'VE SPENT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ALREADY.

IF THINGS WENT FORWARD, WHAT WOULD THIS NEW FACILITY, THESE NEW OPERATIONS COST?

>> Greg: THANK YOU FOR PHRASING IT THAT WAY, BECAUSE IT'S STRUGGLING AND MAY NOT GO FORWARD.

WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THE OFF-RAMPS WILL APPEAR.

SO THERE WILL BE ABOUT $14 BILLION SPENT ON FACILITIES AND THE PROGRAMS TO OPERATE, HIRE, TRAIN THESE FACILITIES BY 2028, IF YOU START COUNTING IN FISCAL '19 WHEN IT REALLY STARTED.

THERE'S ANOTHER REPORT FROM LOS ALAMOS WHICH WE HAVE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT UNREDACTED, WHICH ALLEGEDLY SAYS THAT IT WILL BE $18 BILLION IN THE CURRENT DECADE.

>> Laura: SO I TEND TO THINK OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS AS SOMETHING FROM THE PAST, A LEGACY, AND A FRIGHTENING LEGACY, A TROUBLING LEGACY.

YOU'RE TALKING TO PEOPLE ALL THE TIME; SCIENTISTS, PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., OFFICIALS, CONGRESS PEOPLE.

WHAT IS THE STATED NEED FOR THE UNITED STATES TO CONTINUE MAINTAINING AND MANUFACTURING NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

>> Greg: THE STATED NEED IS THAT WE NEED TO DETER RUSSIA, AND NOW ALSO CHINA, AND NOW ALSO NORTH KOREA AND OTHERS.

SO WE WON'T BE DECREASING THE NUMBER OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS ANY TIME SOON, WHERE WE JUST HEARD THIS AGAIN.

I'M SORRY TO HAVE TO SAY THAT, BUT IT'S VERY AUTHORITATIVE AT THIS POINT.

EVEN THOUGH THE PRESIDENT HAS NOT RELEASED THE NUCLEAR POSTURE REVIEW, I THINK YOU CAN TELL FROM THE WAR-LIKE ATMOSPHERE IN WASHINGTON THAT THAT WOULDN'T BE POPULAR RIGHT NOW.

NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE VERY ROBUST OBJECTS, BUT THEY DO -- PARTS OF THEM DO DETERIORATE, SO THEY HAVE TO BE BROUGHT IN FOR OVERALL.

AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS, IT'S A VERY EXPENSIVE PROCESS.

COMPONENTS CAN BE CHANGED OUT TO MORE MODERN ONES, AND THE MODERN ONES ALSO CAN ADD CAPABILITIES.

SO ACCURACY IMPROVEMENTS CAN BE INSTALLED AT THE TIME YOU DO MAINTENANCE.

SO YOU END UP WITH KIND OF A SOUPED-UP VERSION OF WHAT YOU HAD BEFORE.

IT'S NOT JUST A LIKE-FOR-LIKE REPLACEMENT OF AN "O" RING OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE THE WHOLE THING APART, YOU'RE GOING TO PUT IN AN UPGRADE FROM THE EQUIVALENT OF YOUR OLD ANALOG PHONE, AND YOU'RE GOING TO PUT AN iPHONE 14 OR SOMETHING IN IT.

AND UNFORTUNATELY -- WE THINK UNFORTUNATELY -- YOU CAN REALLY IMPROVE THE ACCURACY OF A WARHEAD, WHICH ENABLES A WIDER SET OF TARGETS, IT FEEDS THE NUCLEAR WAR FIGHTING MENTALITY, AND IT COSTS A TON OF MONEY.

IT KEEPS THE WEAPONS LABORATORIES BUSY WITH UPDATING DESIGNS AND NEW DESIGNS.

AND WHAT IS NOT STATED, BUT IS VERY MUCH A REALITY, IS THAT IT KEEPS PEOPLE EMPLOYED AND TRAINED AND PASSES ON KNOWLEDGE TO A NEW GENERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS WORKERS.

SO THIS IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST UNSTATED REASON, BESIDES THE OBVIOUS CONTRACTOR DOLLARS AND PORK BARREL DOLLARS.

>> Laura: SO THE WAR IN UKRAINE HAS BEEN ONGOING SINCE FEBRUARY.

HOW HAS THAT WAR AND THE U.S. INTEREST IN THAT WAR CHANGED THE CONVERSATION AROUND NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> Greg: I WOULD SAY THAT IT HAS MADE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO GET ANY ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS COMPLEX.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A UNIQUE PART OF GOVERNMENT.

THE ENORMOUS POWER, THE EXISTENTIAL RISK OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS HAS BEEN THE EXCUSE FOR CARVE-OUTS FROM ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS, FROM FISCAL ACCOUNTABILITY, FROM MANY THINGS, AND SO IT'S ALMOST -- AT THE VERY BEGINNING, THE FIRST GENERAL COUNSEL OF THE AEC SAID IT WAS A SEPARATE SOVEREIGNTY.

THE WAR IN UKRAINE HAS SHUT DOWN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS COMPLEX.

IT'S ALMOST NONEXISTENT NOW.

CONGRESS IS GIVING OUT BLANK CHECKS.

IN FACT, IN SOME CASES THEY'RE INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF MONEY OVER WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION REQUESTED, BECAUSE INFLATION IS RAGING AND IT AFFECTS NNSA, AS WELL AS EVERYBODY, YOU AND ME.

SO THE UKRAINE WAR MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT OR TO BE ANY KIND OF DOVE.

>> Laura: INTERESTING.

SO FOR 80 YEARS NOW, THE LAB HAS WORKED ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND WE HAVE CONVERSATIONS IN THE STATE ABOUT JOBS, THE ECONOMY, SOMETIMES WE TALK ABOUT INEQUALITY BETWEEN NORTHERN NEW MEXICO COMMUNITIES AND THE LAB, WE TALK SOMETIMES ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES AND ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS, BUT I FEEL AS THOUGH IN THE STATE WE VERY RARELY TALK ABOUT THE MORALITY OF HAVING A SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE ECONOMY FOCUSED ON WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

WHY IS THAT?

WHY DON'T WE TALK ABOUT THIS?

>> Greg: BOY, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

AND WE SHOULD.

WE ARE AT THE BOTTOM IN OUR CARE OF OUR CHILDREN, IN EDUCATION, AND THERE IS A KIND OF PARALYSIS WHICH HAS AFFECTED OUR PUBLIC MORALITY WITH RESPECT TO OUR SOCIAL LIFE HERE IN THE STATE, AND NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE A PART OF THAT PARALYSIS.

WE HAVE MADE SOME KIND OF PACT THAT WE WILL BE A LESSER STATE.

WE HAVE A WELFARE MENTALITY WITH RESPECT TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

WE WILL BURN OUR CONSCIOUSES WITH A HOT IRON, AS PAUL PUT IT IN THE EPISTLES.

BUT THAT AFFECTS HOW WE THINK ABOUT OUR SOCIAL PROBLEMS, TOO.

OUR IMAGINATIONS OF OUR FUTURE AND THE POLITICAL CONVERSATIONS WE HAVE ARE ABRIDGED.

SIMONE WEIL, WRITING IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR, SAID: "ONLY THOSE WHO KNOW THE EMPIRE OF MIGHT AND KNOW HOW NOT TO RESPECT IT ARE CAPABLE OF LOVE AND JUSTICE," IN HER COMMENTS ABOUT THE ILIAD.

AND THAT'S OUR PROBLEM HERE.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW NOT TO RESPECT THE VIOLENCE OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, THE DEATH-ORIENTED SOLUTION TO HUMAN RELATIONS.

AND IT HARMS OUR ABILITY TO THROW OURSELVES WHOLEHEARTEDLY INTO THE SOCIAL INNOVATION AND THE ENVIRONMENTAL INNOVATION THAT WE REALLY NEED.

>> Laura: THANK YOU, GREG THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> Greg: YOU'RE WELCOME.