Laura: PROFESSOR CURLEY, THANK FOR SO MUCH FOR JOINING  ME TODAY.

Curley: THANK YOU FOR  HAVING ME.

Laura: SO, YOUR RESEARCH  FOCUSES ON THE EVERYDAY INCORPORATION OF INDIGENOUS  NATIONS INTO COLONIAL ECONOMIES.

WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF THIS?

Curley: MY INITIAL RESEARCH PROJECT AS A GRADUATE STUDENT  I THINK WAS THE MAIN EXAMPLE THAT I HAD IN MIND.

AT THAT TIME, ALTHOUGH THERE IS MANY OTHER EXAMPLES ABOUT  IT, WAS THE COAL ECONOMY IN NAVAJO NATION WHICH STARTED IN  THE 1960'S, AT LEAST IN AN INDUSTRIAL SCALE, AND HAS COME  TO AN END IN MANY PARTS OF THE RESERVATION OVER THE LAST FEW  YEARS AND SO IT IS THINKING ABOUT THE RAMIFICATIONS OF  THAT TYPE OF ECONOMY, THAT PARTICIPATION IN EXTRACTIVE  INDUSTRIES IN COAL, IN PARTICULAR, THE KIND OF WORK  AND LABOR INVOLVED, THE KIND OF REVENUE THAT IS GENERATED  FOR THE TRIBAL GOVERNMENT AND THEN, OF COURSE, ENVIRONMENTAL  CONSEQUENCES OF THAT TYPE OF WORK, AND THOSE ARE THE THINGS  THAT ARE PART OF THE COLONIAL ECONOMIES THAT, YOU KNOW,  SURROUND INDIAN COUNTRY AND INCORPORATE LARGE PARTS OF OUR  LAND INTO THE SERVICE OF OTHER THINGS.

SO, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT COAL, A LOT OF THE ENERGY PRODUCED,  IN FACT, ALL THE ENERGY PRODUCED, WAS GOING TOWARD  OUTSIDE COMMUNITIES AND GOING TOWARDS SPECIFIC TYPES OF  PROJECTS.

IN THIS CASE, WITH THE CHINTA  MINE AND THE NAVAJO GENERATING STATION, THE GOAL WAS -- I  MEAN THE ENERGY PRODUCED BY COAL WAS GOING TOWARD THE  CENTRAL ARIZONA PROJECT, THE MAKING OF THIS WATER  INFRASTRUCTURE IN ARIZONA.

BUT, OTHER PARTS OF THE  ECONOMY YES, NAVAJO MINE ON THE EARN END OF THE  RESERVATION IN WHAT IS PART OF NEW MEXICO, THAT IS GOING  TOWARDS, I THINK -- EVEN PNM HAS SOME UTILITY STAKE IN  THESE POWER PLANTS, SO THAT IS GOING TOWARDS THE PLACES WHERE  PNM SERVES.

SO, ALL OF THIS IS TO SAY THE  KINDS OF ECONOMIC ACTIVITIES GENERATED IN THE RESERVATION  AND WHICH WERE STRUCTURED THROUGH LONG-TERM POLICIES  FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, PARTNERSHIP WITH STATE  OFFICIALS, ESPECIALLY IN THE 1930'S, THESE ECONOMIES ARE  GEARED TOWARD OUTSIDE INTEREST ESPECIALLY OTHER COMMUNITIES,  SETTLER COMMUNITIES OUTSIDE OF THE RESERVATION.

SO, THAT IS KIND OF MY GENERAL IDEA OF WHAT COLONIAL  ECONOMIES ARE.

Laura: I WANTED TO TALK A  LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE COLORADO RIVER WHICH IS  BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, IN CRISIS MODE RIGHT NOW FOR CITIES AND  IRRIGATION DISTRICTS.

THERE IS MORE DEMAND FOR WATER  THAN THERE IS SUPPLY RIGHT NOW.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THE CENTRAL ARIZONA  PROJECT AND I HEARD YOU SPEAK RECENTLY ABOUT SCARCITY AND  HOW WE DON'T TALK ENOUGH ABOUT HOW DAMS AND RESERVOIRS ARE  WHAT YOU CALLED THE CONCRETE MANIFESTATIONS OF COLONIALIST  AMBITIONS AND HOW THEY CONTRIBUTE TO DROUGHT.

AND TO THIS NARRATIVE OF DROUGHT AND NARRATIVE OF  CRISIS.

CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH THAT A  LITTLE BIT.

Bassett: WHEN BOLDER CANYON  ACT WAS PASSED, WHEN HOOVER DAM WAS CONSTRUCTED, THERE IS  ALL THIS MYTHOLOGY AND LORE ABOUT THE CONSTRUCTION OF  THESE INFRASTRUCTURES AND THEN EVENTUALLY GLENN CANYON DAM,  PARKER DAM, THE CENTRAL ARIZONA PROJECT, ALL OF THESE  DAMS ALONG THE LOWER BASIN PART OF THE COLORADO RIVER,  THESE DAMS -- WE WEREN'T ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT OH THIS  IS TOO EXPENSIVE, THIS IS NOT SERVING ENOUGH PEOPLE, YOU  KNOW, IT WAS ALL ABOUT FUTURE ORIENTED IDEOLOGY, LIKE, OH,  WE NEED TO CREATE CAP IN ORDER FOR PHOENIX TO GROW, WE NEED  TO BUILD THESE DAMS IN ORDER FOR THE SOUTHWEST TO BLOSSOM.

THE PROBLEM, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THERE IS A DIFFERENT  STANDARD BEING APPLIED WHEN YOU ARE TALKING  INFRASTRUCTURES THAT SERVE WHITE COMMUNITIES AS OPPOSED  TO INFRASTRUCTURES THAT SERVE NATIVE COMMUNITIES, AND YOU  CAN GUESS WHAT THE REASON IS FOR THOSE DOUBLE STANDARD AND  SO WHEN YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE THE HOOVER DAM,  WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT AND THE  CRISIS WE ARE IN NOW, AND THE DROUGHT AND THE EFFECTS OF  CLIMATE CHANGE ON THE COLORADO RIVER, THAT IS SOMETHING LIKE,  YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU INTRODUCE THIS QUESTION YOU SAID, THE  RIVER IS IN CRISIS FOR EX AMOUNT OF PEOPLE, WATER  DISTRICTS, THESE PEOPLE, ALL OF THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN  BENEFITING FROM THESE COLONIAL DIVERSIONS FOR QUITE SOME  TIME.

IF YOU TAKE IT FROM AN  INDIGENOUS PERSPECTIVE, IF YOU TAKE IT FROM A NAVAJO  PERSPECTIVE OR HOPI, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THAT THAT RIVER  HAS BEEN IN CRISIS FOR QUITE SOME TIME, GOING BACK TO THESE  FIRST INCURSIONS INTO THE REGION, GOING BACK TO THE  CONSTRUCTION OF THE ROOSEVELT DAM ALONG THE SALT RIVER.

ONCE THE COLONISTS CAME IN AND STARTED TO DAM THE RIVER AND  CHANGE THE ECOLOGY, THAT IS WHEN THE RIVER STARTED TO GO  INTO CRISIS, THAT IS KIND OF THE ORIGIN OF CLIMATE CHANGE  IN THE REGION.

IT DID AFFECT THE CLIMATE, IT AFFECTED THE RIVER, IT  AFFECTED ECOLOGIES OF THE REGION, THAT IS WHAT WE ARE  TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.

SO WE CAN'T DIVORCE THESE INFRASTRUCTURES FROM THE  CONSIDERATION OF CLIMATE CHANGES.

IN THE PRESENTATION I SHOW ACTUALLY WE INCLUDE THESE  INFRASTRUCTURES WHEN THINKING ABOUT THE EFFECT OF CLIMATE  CHANGE.

WE LOOK AT RESERVOIR LEVELS  AND WE SAY, LOOK, THERE IS CLIMATE CHANGE HERE BECAUSE  THE RESERVOIRS ARE SINKING.

THOSE RESERVOIRS ARE THOSE  COLONIAL INTRUSIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THEY ARE NOT NATURAL.

THE RIVER WAS NEVER MEANT TO SIT  THE WAY IT DOES, BEHIND THE WALLS OF THESE DAMS.

SO, THAT ITSELF IS ORIGIN OF THE PROBLEM BEYOND THIS LARGER  QUESTION OF THE DECLINING SNOWPACK OR FASTER MELTING  SNOWPACK OR PROLONGED DROUGHT IN THE REGION.

I MEAN, THOSE THINGS ARE ALSO IMPORTANT BUT WHAT WE ARE NOT  CONSIDERING ARE THE EFFECTS OF THESE DAMS.

THAT WAS KIND OF THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE IS LIKE YOU  LOOK AT EVEN HOW WE TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, WE TALK ABOUT  THE COLORADO RIVER AND IT BEING ENDANGERED AND THERE WAS  LIKE -- WHEN THE ORIGIN POINTS OF THAT ENDANGERMENT BEGINS IN  MOST PEOPLES' MINDS IS FAIRLY RECENTLY.

IT DOESN'T GO BACK TO THE COLORADO COMPACT.

ARGUABLY THE COLORADO COMPACT HAS HAD MORE IMPACT ON THE  COLORADO RIVER THAN THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE THUS  FAR.

SO, WHY AREN'T WE TALKING  ABOUT THAT?

Laura: TALKING ABOUT THESE  MYTHS AND THESE DIFFERENT NARRATIVES, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT  CLIMATE CHANGE KIND OF ACROSS THE NEWS MEDIA AND THERE IS A  LOT OF DOOM OR TALK ABOUT APOCALYPSE AND YOU AND MANY  OTHERS POINT OUT THAT IS REALLY A EUROCENTRIC NARRATIVE  AROUND NATURE AND AROUND CLIMATE CATASTROPHE.

WHAT DOES THAT MISS OUT ON?

WHAT IS THAT LACKING?

HOW COULD THAT BE DIFFERENT?

HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT?

Curley: I AM NOT THE FIRST  ONE TO COME UP WITH THIS POINT.

MANY OTHER INDIGENOUS SCHOLARS AND MANY OTHER HISTORIANS EVEN  HAVE TALKED ABOUT HOW THE WAY WE UNDERSTAND TIME AND  PROGRESS AND FUTURE CATASTROPHE, IT IS NEGLECTING  WHAT IS THE EXPERIENCE OF INDIGENOUS NATIONS, WHAT IS  THE EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE ON THE GROUND OR PEOPLE THAT ARE  SUCKED UP INTO THESE SYSTEMS WHEN WORLDS END?

THERE ARE THESE WORLD ENDING EXPERIENCES FOR PEOPLE THAT  HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED AND SO YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT  APOCALYPSE AND YOUR IMAGINATION IS IMAGINING THE  END OF THE WORLD FOR A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE AND USUALLY  THEY ARE SUBURBAN, AFFLUENT OR CITY PEOPLE OR POLITICIANS OR  I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS IN THE MIND OF PEOPLE WHEN THEY TALK  ABOUT THIS APOCALYPSE IN THE FUTURE OR THE DANGER OF THE  RIVERS, BUT WHAT ENDS BEING NEGLECTED IS KIND OF THESE  PAST INTRUSIONS.

AND SO WHEN YOU'RE TALKING  ABOUT THE DAMMING UP OF LIKE THE MISSOURI RIVER, RIGHT,  WITH THE PICK-SLOAN ACT AND FLOODING OF HUNDREDS OF ACRES  OF INDIGENOUS LAND THAT WAS GUARANTEED THROUGH TREATY,  THAT IS A WORLD-CHANGING EXPERIENCE.

THAT IS APOCALYPSE OF SORTS.

AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE  BUILDING OF THESE DAMS ALONG THE NAVAJO NATION AND THE LAND  SWAPS INVOLVED IN ORDER TO GET A LAKE POWELL AND TO STILL  MAINTAIN A LAND BASE IN NAVAJO NATION, THESE ARE APOCALYPTIC  SCENARIOS.

AND OFTEN THEY HAPPEN WITH  DAMS AND WITH THE WAY WE TREAT WATER IN THE WEST.

WE HAVE CREATED THESE HUGE WORLD CHANGING INFRASTRUCTURES  THROUGHOUT THE REGION THAT HAVE ALSO CONTRIBUTED TO THE  CHANGING OF THE LANDSCAPE, URBAN LANDSCAPE.

YOU KNOW, EVEN GOING THROUGH PHOENIX OR ALBUQUERQUE OR  SANTA FE OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, YOU SEE CITIES GROWING  AND GROWING, MADE POSSIBLE BY INFRASTRUCTURES.

SO THE WORLDS ARE ALWAYS CHANGING AROUND US AND WHAT IS  MISSED BY THIS FEAR OF WHAT HAS HAPPENING AT THE END OF  THE WORLD DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE IS REALLY THE KIND OF  INNOVATIVE, SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND CULTURAL STRATEGIES  ENDOGENOUS PEOPLE HAVE HAD AND HAVE BEEN MADE TO HAVE IN  ORDER TO SURVIVE ACROSS ALL OF THESE APOCALYPTIC EVENTS, YOU  KNOW.

WE HAVE DEALT WITH ALL SORTS  OF -- ALL SORTS OF WORST-CASE SCENARIOS, EVEN BEING MOVED  PHYSICALLY OFF OF OUR LAND AT THE END OF A BAYONET TO AN  HUELDE, YOU KNOW, AT BOSQUE REDONDO ON THE EASTERN END OF  NEW MEXICO.

THAT IS BETWEEN 1862 AND 1868,  YOU KNOW, THAT IS AN APOCALYPSE MOMENT FOR US AND  WE SURVIVED THAT AND OVERCAME THAT AND WE MADE A NEW WORLD  IN THE NAVAJO NATION AFTER THAT.

SO, THERE IS A LOT TO LEARN FROM INDIGENOUS PEOPLES'  ABILITY TO RESPOND TO THESE CATASTROPHES AND TO THINK  ABOUT WHAT ARE THE VALUES OF A SOCIETY THAT IS -- THAT HAS  HAD TO OVERCOME ALL THESE MARGINALIZATIONS AND YET  CONTINUE TO SURVIVE.

AND COMPARE THAT TO THE VALUES  OF A SOCIETY THAT ARE CAUSING THOSE PROBLEMS, THAT ARE  CAUSING THESE CATASTROPHES TO OCCUR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND MAYBE RATHER THAN THINKING ABOUT TECHNICAL SOLUTIONS, WE  THINK OF POLITICAL AND ETHICAL SOLUTIONS, RIGHT?

WE THINK ABOUT HOW WE TREAT THE PLANET ETHICALLY, FIRST,  BEFORE WE THINK ABOUT THINGS TECHNICALLY AND THAT GEARS US  IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT DIRECTION THAN IF WE CONTINUE  TO HAVE THIS MODERNIST AND EUROCENTRIC IDEA OF TIME, OF  PROGRESS AND TECHNICAL INNOVATION AND WE HAVE CRISIS  AND THEN SOLUTION TO THOSE CRISES IS MORE TECHNOLOGY,  IMPROVED TECHNOLOGY.

WHEN WE ARE THINKING ALONG THOSE  LINES, WE END UP NOT ONLY CREATING MORE PROBLEMS,  BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO CREATE NEW KIND OF INDUSTRIES TO SERVE  THESE NEW ONES, WE PERPETUATE EXISTING INEQUALITIES.

WHEN WE ARE VALUING TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATION OVER  SOCIAL DIRECTIONALITY AND WHAT ARE THE VALUES OF A SOCIETY,  THEN WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT OTHER KINDS OF SOLUTIONS, HOW  DO WE WORK ON SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC  INEQUALITIES AT THE SAME TIME WHILE DEALING WITH THINGS THAT  ARE SEEN TO BE IN THE REALM OF THE ENVIRONMENT, ENVIRONMENTAL  CRISES, AND I THINK THAT IS KIND OF THE LARGER MORE, I  GUESS, PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION THAT WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES  WHEN WE ARE THINKING ABOUT IDEAS OF APOCALYPSE.

THAT IS A LONG-WINDED ANSWER AND IT FEELS LIKE IT IS  LEADING WITH THIS KIND OF VAGUE IDEA OF WHAT TO DO IN  PEOPLES' MINDS BUT THAT IS BASICALLY WHERE I AM AT WITH  HOW WE WERE THINKING ABOUT THESE THINGS, ME AND OTHER  PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT THIS.

Laura: WELL, THANK YOU, PROFESSOR CURLEY.

I REALLY  APPRECIATE IT.

Curley: YOU'RE WELCOME.