LAURA: Hi, Jonathan.

Thanks  for joining me this morning.

JONATHAN: Thank you.

LAURA: So, for those of you tuning in,   Jonathan Golden is a former wildland  firefighter who I interviewed last year.

We talked about a whole slew of challenges  that federal wildland firefighters face   and so we're gonna kind of catch up on that  conversation from last fall.

But, Jonathan,   I was wondering if you could kind of give us kind  of the overview, for people who maybe didn't see   that interview last year, of some of the, the  big challenges that wildland firefighters face,   that the rest of us probably don't know about.

JONATHAN: Yeah, well… thanks for inviting me   back.

I really appreciate it and  I think a lot of the things that   the firefighters face, the  challenges that face is just a   clear appreciation and understanding by the  public at large of what our lives are like   and what we go through, not only on a  day-to-day basis, like while we're on the line,   the fire line.

You know largely invisible from  the from the public, but just the accumulative,   you know, stress that develops over the shifts,  the weeks, the months the years of doing the   job.

And I, you know, we got to uncover some of  that when we discussed this last summer.

Like,   the mental health issues, the housing  insecurity issues, especially at duty stations   around the country, the, you know, the,  when we talk comparatively, the low pay   for the job.

And, you know the, the health issues,  besides mental health, the physical health.

What's   happening with our respiratory system and our  heart, our bones, everything like that.

And so,   there is just a lot that people don't understand.

I think, you know they see fire, they see   tankers dropping retardant or helicopters dropping  water, but they really don't understand that,   you know, on the ground, there's a wildland  firefighter with a radio and a pack   in the smoke, in the heat, in the  flame.

Coordinating all that stuff and   that's just one very small piece of it, really.

LAURA: Yeah, I feel like that conversation last   year really opened my eyes to so many things that  I didn't understand, you know.

As an environment   reporter, I've been reporting pretty consistently  on how warmer temperatures, in combination with   past forest management practices, have  really combined to drive these bigger,   hotter wildfires and, you know, our lengthening  wildfire season.

But, our conversation last   year opened my eyes so much to some of the  challenges that this workforce deals with   during fire season and outside of fire season.

And, I'm curious, you know, one of the things   that we spoke about last year, right about the  time we did that interview… the Forest Service   was, had just raised pay, I think, to $15 an  hour, which really seems really low, given   the risks that people face.

But, I'm curious if  you have a sense of what staffing looks like for   the coming fire season, or if we know that yet?

JONATHAN: I think the early indications are that   we're still coming up woefully short in  recruiting talent.

To come and do this job,   it's a hard job.

Yes, the administration  implemented a, you know, a minimum wage of $15   an hour for wildland firefighters.

And then, the  budget and infrastructure act was passed, which   sought to increase salaries by either  twenty thousand dollars or fifty percent,   whichever was less, for a remaining amount of  the workforce.

I think up to the GS-9 level   and that was supposed to be implemented  on October 1st.

To my best knowledge,   speaking with friends across the country that are  still working for the federal agencies that are   under GS-9, they still haven't received  that money.

And that's really weighing on   them and that's really actually contributing for  people to decide to just walk away, altogether.

Right, there's, there's other agencies or entities  that they can work for where they are valued   and not saying that they're not valued, you know.

Everybody that I've ever worked for and either   the Department of Interior Agencies or Forest  Service has been openly appreciative for the work   that we've done, but sometimes, you know, thanks  doesn't fill up the bank account and put food on   the table, pay for health care, raise a family,  et cetera.

So, you know, I think that had those   raises come when they should have come, we might  be seeing a little bit of a different story but   right now.

It's looking pretty bleak for retention  and recruitment in a lot of the areas around the   country, so that you know, I think that,  again, I think the public just doesn't   have a sense of that, you know, when we, you know… LAURA: Here in New Mexico, when we have wildfires,   you know, we just assume that people are  able to show up and fight these fires.

And,   you know, you talk about appreciation, you know,  whenever we have a wildfire you know people in our   communities, we always want to know, like, how do  we support the firefighters who are there in the   community?

People want to drop off water, bring  food and, you know, put up signs, but it sounds   like there's some deeper ways that we, as voters,  as just people can better show our appreciation.

I'm curious, what can be done at this point?

JONATHAN: I think from my perspective what   could be done is that we've seen a lot of  really good like headlines and top line   nuggets from the Administration about, “Hey this  is what the Infrastructure Act is supposed to do.”   But, it's kind of coming up short  on details.

They're not really   setting out a plan in place or, and if they are,   I don't think it's being communicated very well  to the folks on the ground.

As to what they can   expect and how that impacts them and then also  like the communities at large that are adjacent to   public lands or are in the, they should know what  to expect and really, I honestly, I think when you   talk about how can people continue to show their  support, get your communities involved, get your,   you know, your county commissioners, your local  government and make sure that they know that   it's an issue.

Like, for example, there's grant  money that's available in the Infrastructure Act,   to communities that are at risk from wildfire  which is a lot of communities in New Mexico,   but you know, there are some certain caveats,  whether or not their community has a wildland   wildfire protection plan in place.

Whether or not  their community has met, then, the satisfactory   needs for roofing material that is non-combustible  and if they have… and they have, you know, clearly   articulated a need for wildfire suppression or  fuels treatment.

And their protection plans,   then, they're open and available to receive that  grant money that was made available, you know,   from congress.

Passing the Infrastructure Act,  but I think that fire as we have seen in Denton,   Montana and Boulder County is, and of course  California is a year-round destructive event   and we can't keep our eye off that.

I know  that my colleagues that are still doing it,   you know, if they're not at home right  now, they're responding to wildfires.

They're doing prescribed fire in the south,  which has a huge prescribed fire program.

And so, they're, they're in it 24-7, almost 365.

LAURA: So, it sounds like there are things that   individuals and communities can do to kind of  protect themselves from certain conditions and   certain fires and we'll put those resources in  our comments.

And, I don't want to be alarmist,   but what does it potentially mean for communities  in the West, if there isn't the federal   workforce that is required?

JONATHAN:   You're still going to have a local or state  jurisdiction show up and then you'll probably   still have a federal component.

It just means  that the response times are going to lag   really and truly.

That's kind of, that's kind of  the difference maker, right?

I'm, you're going to…   somebody's going to pick up the phone and call and  they're going to wonder where these resources are.

And that's just kind of in my mind.

I feel like  that's, that's a little bit unacceptable.

We   are expecting and accustomed to emergency services  showing up promptly, and if they're in proximity,   they will.

But, if we continue to have a  retention issue and a recruitment issue,   it's really going to limit our national  capacity to address what's turning to be a   growing crisis, not just in the West.

LAURA: And then, in terms of what,   you know, so, we're kind of  talking a big picture of how   these workforce issues can affect communities  and landscapes, but what about the strain that's,   the workforce that is there?

Like, what are  some of the resources?

What are some of the   problems and what are some of the resources?

JONATHAN: Well, I mean so in New Mexico,   for example, they still have dozens of vacancies  or no-fills at, you know, the GS-6 to GS-9   position and so you're, you're shouldering  the existing workforce with a larger workload,   right?

And, you know, it puts constraints on them  and it puts constraints on, you know, certain   ability or capability or capacity to respond to  these emergencies.

And, you know, if we can't,   if we can't address that, you know, we're… and  we continue to do more with less, I mean, it's   gonna be pretty telling when every fire that  starts… and I don't want to say every fire,   but when a lot of fires that start turn into  very large fires that consume not only a ton   of natural resources, but communities and,  you know, I hope not, but life as well…  LAURA: We talked a little bit about  the infrastructure bill in congress.

Has there been interest from, you know, Western  lawmakers to address some of these issues,   either for the workforce themselves, for  firefighters themselves or for communities?

JONATHAN: Yeah, I feel like the New Mexico  Senate delegation has been really good and   engaged on these issues.

They understand the  values at risk and what's at stake.

And it's   not just them.

I mean, it's, I think lawmakers  across the West are very clear-eyed about a need   to address this.

I think what happens, though,  is there's disagreement on, you know, what part   do we do first, right?

So, some lawmakers want  to see, like, a, just a whole scale approach   to fuels reduction and get rid of NEPA… well  not get rid of NEPA, but let's just say, like,   you know, put NEPA aside, to get as much done as  we can.

But, you know, there are other lawmakers   that are very people-focused, too, because  who are, who are doing the work?

It's people.

People are the ones doing the work and we need to  make sure that we have the people to do the work.

That we can realistically achieve the  land management objectives.

That the land   management agencies are setting out for us to do.

LAURA: So, we also spoke last year about a federal   firefighter who was from Montana, Wyoming.

A smoke  jumper who died as a result of injury sustained on   a fire here in New Mexico.

And, you know, I think,  when we think of federal workers, we think of   you know things like health insurance and, you  know, I was totally under the mistaken impression   that people's families would be taken care of  when they, you know, are essentially killed in the   line of duty.

And, I remember there was a gofundme  campaign for Tim and somebody on our social media,   we were promoting this, mentioned Tim's Act.

Are you familiar with that legislation?

Could   you give us a little update on that?

JONATHAN: Yeah, so Tim's Act,   you know, is the product of the unfortunate  tragedy of what happened to Tim Hart   in New Mexico.

Yeah, he was a smoke jumper  and we… the people working on Tim's Act,   you know, really, the hats off to Michelle  Hart, Tim's spouse, for really, kind of,   spearheading and being the champion of this bill.

You know, it sets to, you know, define what right   looks like for the wildland fire community.

I  mean, essentially what you have right now is   land management employees doing fire  department work for land management wages,   right?

I don't… you'd be hard-pressed to find fire  departments that pay as low as the land management   agencies, for the work that's being asked of them.

And it really is just a culmination of everything   that she witnessed her husband go through:  sleeping in his truck in Grangeville, Idaho,   because there was no housing available.

And he had  to pay to rent, you know, space there and that was   a 13-hour drive away from their home in Cody,  Wyoming, you know.

Mental health leave, because,   you know, let's face it.

Like the stress that  compounds, we need to be able to take a break,   take a pause and that's really hard.

That's really  hard to do in the middle of the season, when your   crew is depending on you.

The communities  are depending on you to perform, go, go,   so we were able to get Tim's, excuse me, Tim's Act  introduced in the House.

Congressman Jonah Goose   led this effort on, has received bipartisan  support in the House and there is a Senate   companion piece in the works right now that we  know of.

From what I understand, it does have   bipartisan support.

However, we just need  to make sure that those authors of Tim's   Act in the Senate are paying attention to what's  happening on the ground.

They're hearing about,   you know, what the perspective is, from those  that this is meant to impact, because there is   a disconnect from what happens on the ground  and what, you know, the Washington office or   regional Forester's office.

Tell folks when they  provide technical feedback for these legislative   pieces.

And that's very critical.

We can't, we  can't divorce those two.

The boots on the ground   from the lawmakers, because they need to know.

They need to hear it, you know.

I think raw and   get the truth of what is actually needed in order  to retain and recruit.

If we're able to get around   this, this, you know, emergency situation  that happens every summer around the West.

LAURA: Right, well… so, we will drop some  resources into the comments for people if you   are watching this or listening to this and you  want to share your story, I'll drop my email   in the comments as well.

And Jonathan, thank  you so much for your continued work and for   talking to me about these important issues.

JONATHAN: Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Thanks you