>> Laura: HI MAGGIE.

>> Maggie: HI, IT'S NICE TO  BE HERE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

I WANTED TO START RIGHT OFF THE BAT WITH THE BLACK FIRE,  COMPARING MAPS OF WHERE THE BLACK FIRE HAS BEEN BURNING  AND COMPARING MAPS OF THE WOLF RECOVERY AREA.

IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S SOME OVERLAP THERE.

AND I WAS CURIOUS HOW THE BLACK FIRE IS AFFECTING OR  POTENTIALLY AFFECTING THE WOLF POPULATIONS IN NEW  MEXICO.

>> Maggie: WE KNOW THE  BLACK FIRE HAS BURNED OVER AT LEAST THREE WOLF DENS AND  CAME PRETTY CLOSE TO A FOURTH, AND THAT'S OF KNOWN  WOLF DENS, AND DURING THE HIGH FIRE ACTIVITY TIME, ALL  OF THE ADULT WOLVES DID LEAVE THE AREA.

BUT SINCE THE FAIR HAS MOVED THROUGH, THE THREE PACKS  THAT IT DID BURN OVER THEIR DENS, THEY ARE ALL BACK IN  THE DEN AREAS, WHICH INDICATES TO US THAT THEY'RE  STILL TAKING CARE OF PUPPIES.

SO WE'RE OPTIMISTIC THAT WHILE THE FIRE DID BURN  THROUGH THE AREAS, THAT THE PACKS ARE DOING OKAY.

>> Laura: SO THIS IS A DENNING TIME OF YEAR.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE KIND OF WHAT THEY'RE DOING, WHAT  THEIR ACTIVITIES ARE?

>> Maggie: YEAH.

GENERALLY ABOUT APRIL AND MAY, WOLF PACKS WILL DEN.

THE FEMALES WILL HAVE THEIR PUPS AND THEY'LL STAY IN  THOSE DENNING AREAS THROUGH KIND OF JUNE, MAYBE INTO  EARLY JULY, AND BEGIN MOVING THE PUPS AROUND TO WHAT WE  CALL RENDEZVOUS SITES.

BUT GENERALLY FROM APRIL  THROUGH MAYBE JULY, MID SUMMER, WOLF PACKS ARE  FOCUSED ON TENDING TO THEIR DENS AND RAISING PUPPIES.

>> Laura: AND HOW MANY PUPPIES DO THEY USUALLY HAVE  IN THEIR DENS?

>> Maggie: AVERAGE LITTER  SIZE FOR MEXICAN WOLVES IS FOUR TO SIX.

>> Laura: WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WILD WOLVES AND  CAPTIVE WOLVES.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE  RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THOSE TWO AND KIND OF WHY WE NEED  BOTH?

>> Maggie: WE EFFECTIVELY  HAVE THREE DIFFERENT POPULATIONS OF MEXICAN  WOLVES RIGHT NOW.

ONE IS BEING ESTABLISHED IN  THE WILD IN MEXICO, ONE HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED IN THE WILD  IN THE U.S., AND ONE IS THE CAPTIVE BREEDING PROGRAM.

AND ALL MEXICAN WOLVES WERE ERADICATED FROM THE WILD BY  THE LATE '70s, AND WE RELIED ON THE CAPTIVE  BREEDING PROGRAM TO SAVE THE MEXICAN WOLF FROM  EXTINCTION.

SO BOTH THE U.S. WILD  POPULATION AND THE MEXICO WILD POPULATION WERE  ESTABLISHED USING RELEASES FROM CAPTIVITY.

SO THE GENETICS ARE ALL THE SAME, THE POPULATIONS ARE  KIND OF MANAGED AS ONE, EVEN THOUGH THEY EXIST AS THREE  SEPARATE POPULATIONS.

BUT THEY ARE INTERTWINED AT  LEAST THUS FAR IN THE RECOVERY EFFORTS.

>> Laura: WHAT KIND OF NUMBERS ARE WE LOOKING AT IN  THE UNITED STATES, AND THEN IN MEXICO?

>> Maggie: THERE ARE ABOUT 380 WOLVES IN CAPTIVITY, AND  THAT'S DISTRIBUTED AMONGST JUST OVER 60 FACILITIES IN  THE UNITED STATES AND MEXICO.

IT'S A BI-NATIONAL BREEDING PROGRAM.

THERE'S JUST UNDER 200 WOLVES, AT OUR LAST COUNT,  FOR THE U.S. POPULATION, AND ABOUT 40 TO 50 ANIMALS IN  THE WILD IN MEXICO.

>> Laura: AND I KNOW IT'S A  LONG AND COMPLICATED HISTORY, BUT CAN YOU GIVE US  KIND OF THE LITTLE OVERVIEW OF THE RECOVERY EFFORT HERE  IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> Maggie: YEAH.

MEXICAN WOLVES WERE COMPLETELY ERADICATED FROM  THE WILD BY THE 1970s, AND CAPTIVE BREEDING SAVED THE  WOLF FROM EXTINCTION.

AND IN THE LATE '90s WE  BEGAN RELEASING WOLVES INTO THE WILD IN ARIZONA AND NEW  MEXICO, AND THAT POPULATION, IT TOOK A WHILE TO BECOME  ESTABLISHED, BUT IT HAS SINCE STARTED GROWING PRETTY  WELL.

IN THE LAST SIX YEARS, OUR  WILD POPULATION HAS DOUBLED, ACTUALLY.

SO THINGS ARE GOING REALLY WELL IN THE UNITED STATES SO  FAR.

>> Laura: I FEEL LIKE IT'S  FAIR TO SAY THAT THERE HAVE BEEN, OVER THE YEARS, THERE  HAVE BEEN SORT OF POLITICAL CHALLENGES, THERE HAVE BEEN  MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW IF SCIENTIFIC CHALLENGES IS THE  RIGHT TERM, BUT CAN YOU KIND OF CHARACTERIZE HOW POLITICS  AND SORT OF SOCIAL UNDERSTANDINGS OF WOLVES  HAVE AFFECTED THIS ESSENTIALLY, LIKE,  SCIENTIFIC PROGRAM?

>> Maggie: YEAH.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR POPULATION TREND, OR THE  GROWTH THROUGH THE YEARS, IT REALLY DOES LOOK LIKE  THERE'S SORT OF THREE DIFFERENT PHASES OF  RE-ESTABLISHMENT IN THE WILD IN THE U.S.

IN THE EARLY YEARS, THE POPULATION GROWS AND THAT'S  DURING A TIME WHERE WE WERE RELEASING A LOT OF WOLVES  AND NOT REMOVING VERY MANY WOLVES, AND THEN THERE'S A  PERIOD OF TIME WHERE THE POPULATION OSCILLATES  BETWEEN 40 AND 60 ANIMALS AND DOESN'T REALLY SEEM TO  BE GROWING MUCH, AND THAT REFLECTS A PERIOD OF TIME  WHERE WE STOPPED RELEASING ANIMALS FOR THE MOST PART  FROM THE CAPTIVE BREEDING PROGRAM TO THE WILD, BUT WE  ALSO INCREASED REMOVALS QUITE A BIT.

WE GOT REALLY AGGRESSIVE IN HOW WE WERE MANAGING WOLVES  THAT DEPRECATED ON LIVESTOCK.

AND AT THE END OF THAT KIND OF MANAGEMENT REGIMEN, WE  SHIFTED TO WHERE WE WERE TRYING TO PROACTIVELY MANAGE  LIVESTOCK DEPRECATIONS, INSTEAD OF REACTIVELY MANAGE  THEM, SO WE TRIED TO GET AHEAD OF THEM AND STOP THEM  FROM HAPPENING, AND WE STOPPED REMOVING SO MANY  WOLVES AT THAT TIME AND OUR POPULATION HAS GROWN  ESSENTIALLY EVER SINCE.

AND ONLY DURING THE LAST FEW  YEARS HAVE WE STARTED RELEASING WOLVES AGAIN FROM  THE CAPTIVE BREEDING PROGRAM INTO THE WILD.

AND WE NO LONGER NEED TO RELEASE WOLVES TO GROW THE  POPULATION, OR ESTABLISH IT, NOT IN THE UNITED STATES.

THE REASON THAT WE'RE RELEASING WOLVES NOW IS  PURELY TO AUGMENT THE GENETICS OF THE WILD  POPULATION.

>> Laura: I'M CURIOUS, IT  SEEMS LIKE EVERYBODY HAS OPINIONS OR FEELINGS   ABOUT WOLVES.

IT'S ONE OF THOSE SPECIES THAT IT FEELS LIKE THERE'S  STRONG OPINIONS AND FEELINGS ON MAYBE BOTH SIDES OF THE  ISSUE.

I'M CURIOUS WHY YOU THINK  THAT IS.

>> Maggie: WOLVES DO ELICIT  A STRONG EMOTIONAL RESPONSE IN PEOPLE, AND I THINK THE  BEST THING FOR WOLVES IN GENERAL WOULD BE TO JUST BE  CONSIDERED LIKE ANY OTHER ANIMAL ON THE LANDSCAPE, YOU  KNOW, LIKE A BEAR OR A MOUNTAIN LION.

BUT THAT'S JUST NEVER BEEN HOW WE, AS HUMANS, SEE  WOLVES.

AND I TEND TO THINK THAT IT  KIND OF LIES IN OUR OWN VALUES.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WEST,  SOME PEOPLE VIEW IT AS AN AREA THAT WE'VE CONQUERED  AND WE LIVE IN AND WORK IN AND PLAY ON, AND SOME PEOPLE  VIEW IT AS MAYBE THE LAST BIT OF WILDNESS OR NATURE  THAT WE HAVE AND IT NEEDS TO BE PROTECTED AND PRISTINE.

AND PEOPLE PUT THE WOLF IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT KIND OF  DIFFERENT SET OF VALUES.

AND VALUES ARE TOUGH.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE ANYONE ELSE'S VALUES, NOR DO  I WANT SOMEONE TO TRY TO CHANGE MINE.

BUT IT'S THE AREA, KIND OF THE GRAY AREA BETWEEN OUR  DIFFERENT SETS OF VALUES THAT I THINK GIVES US THE  SPACE TO WORK IN TO TRY TO ACHIEVE RECOVERY PROGRAMS  LIKE THIS.

>> Laura: SO THE GILA  NATIONAL FOREST IS OBVIOUSLY AN INCREDIBLE PLACE, AND I'M  CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK -- I'M GOING TO START THAT  QUESTION OVER.

SORRY.

SO THE GILA NATIONAL FOREST IS AN INCREDIBLE PLACE.

WOLVES ARE A REALLY SPECIAL SPECIES.

I'M CURIOUS, DO YOU SEE A FUTURE WHERE THEIR  POPULATIONS DON'T HAVE TO BE MANAGED, BUT THAT IT'S JUST  A NATURAL PART OF THE LANDSCAPE AGAIN?

>> Maggie: I DO SEE A TIME AND A PLACE WHERE MEXICAN  WOLVES WON'T HAVE TO BE MANAGED SO INTENSIVELY.

OUR POPULATION IS GROWING REALLY WELL IN THE UNITED  STATES, AND ALL INDICATIONS ARE THAT WE'LL BE SUCCESSFUL  IN RECOVERING THIS SPECIES.

THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE WE  HAVE RIGHT NOW IS GENETICS, AND WE'RE DOING WHAT WE CAN  TO TRY TO GIVE WOLVES THE BEST CHANCE THEY HAVE IN  THAT WAY.

AND AS THE POPULATION GROWS  AND AS IT EXPANDS, WE'LL BE ABLE TO GIVE MORE MANAGEMENT  OVER TO THE STATES AND OVER TO THE STAKEHOLDERS AND  THINGS, AND THE BEST THING FOR WOLVES EVENTUALLY IS FOR  RECOVERY EFFORTS TO KIND OF BACK OFF AND LET THE SPECIES  JUST BE WILD.

>> Laura: THANKS, MAGGIE,  FOR TALKING WITH ME TODAY.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> Maggie: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.