>> Gene: WE RETURN THIS WEEK TO POET AND AUTHOR MICHELLE OTERO.

IN PART TWO OF THEIR CONVERSATION, OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS ASKS MS. OTERO ABOUT HER RECENTLY PUBLISHED MEMOIR, "VESSELS, A MEMORY OF BORDERS," AND ABOUT THE PROCESS OF WRITING AS AN ACT OF HEALING.

>> Laura: HI MICHELLE OTERO.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> Michelle: THANK YOU, LAURA.

GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: SO YOU GREW UP IN DEMING.

HOW DID THAT LANDSCAPE AND THAT PROXIMITY TO THE BORDER, HOW DID THAT SHAPE YOU AND YOUR WRITING AND YOUR ATTENTIVENESS, WHICH COMES THROUGH SO MUCH IN YOUR WRITING?

>> Michelle: I THINK THAT LANDSCAPE, I REALLY TOOK IT FOR GRANTED WHEN I WAS A KID, BECAUSE IT'S JUST, THAT'S HOW EVERYTHING LOOKED.

SO ALL THE THINGS WITH FLOWERS CAN ALSO POKE YOU AND HURT YOU.

IT WAS -- I JUST REMEMBER HOW HARD MY PARENTS TRIED TO GROW GRASS, LIKE FOR YEARS, AND THEY TRIED EVERYTHING.

THEY WOULD DO, LIKE, SOD OR THEN MANURE, AND IT REALLY WASN'T -- I'M KIND OF GLAD WE DIDN'T HAVE THE INTERNET THEN, BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW -- THERE WAS A LOT I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE WHOLE ESTHETIC OF LIKE YOU HAVE TO HAVE A LUSH LAWN AND THESE HUGE TREES.

IT JUST WASN'T WHAT I GREW UP WITH.

SO I ACTUALLY REALLY APPRECIATE BEING IN SPACES WHERE YOU CAN SEE THE SKY, WHERE THINGS THAT ARE BEAUTIFUL HAVE PROTECTION AROUND THEM, WHERE YOU KIND OF KNOW YOUR PLACE IN THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU GROW UP IN THAT LANDSCAPE, I THINK, AND THIS ONE, TOO, YOU REALIZE, LIKE, YOU'RE A TEENY TINY PART OF IT AND NOT THE CENTER, AND I THINK THAT SHOWS UP A LOT IN MY WRITING.

I DON'T KNOW IF I HAD A REAL CONCEPT OF, LIKE, THE BORDER, LIKE THE INTERNATIONAL BORDER, BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH -- JUST THERE WAS SO MUCH -- THEY'RE IN SUCH CLOSE PROXIMITY TO EACH OTHER THAT MEXICO ALMOST DIDN'T FEEL LIKE ANOTHER COUNTRY IN REALLY CONSCIOUS WAYS, AND THEN IN PROFOUND WAYS IT TOTALLY DID.

SO IN DEMING AND THAT WHOLE AREA, THERE'S COTTON, THERE'S CHILI, MOST OF THE PEOPLE PICKING THAT ARE FROM MEXICO, AND SO I JUST REMEMBER SEEING, LIKE, SCHOOL BUSES WITH -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S IN THIS BOOK OR SOMETHING ELSE I WROTE, OF ALMOST LIKE A SAD BASEBALL TEAM, GOING OUT TO THESE FIELDS AND PICKING.

AND I HAD AN IDEA THAT THAT WAS REALLY HARD, BACK-BREAKING WORK.

AND ALSO BECAUSE I DIDN'T GROW UP SPEAKING SPANISH, THERE WAS A WAY THAT THAT LINE, THAT BORDER DID FEEL LIKE A DIVIDER.

I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE I'LL LEARN SPANISH.

IT'LL BE LIKE MY PERIOD.

LIKE, WHEN I GET BY PERIOD, I'LL GAIN THE ABILITY TO SPEAK SPANISH.

YOU KNOW, SO IN THAT SENSE, I WAS PRESSED RIGHT UP AGAINST IT, AND THEN ALSO VERY SEPARATE FROM IT JUST IN TERMS OF LIKE LANGUAGE, AND THEN ALSO AS I'VE GOTTEN OLDER, I THINK THE PRIVILEGES, LIKE THE STARK CONTRAST BETWEEN WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE U.S.

CITIZENSHIP AND WHAT IT MEANS TO NOT HAVE THAT, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE FROM MEXICO, HAS JUST BECOME MORE AND MORE PRONOUNCED AS I'VE BECOME MORE CONSCIOUS, TOO.

>> Laura: I WAS WONDERING IF YOU COULD READ A SHORT PASSAGE ON PAGE 158.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO IS GIVING YOU SOME ADVICE.

WOULD YOU START WITH "ALMA SAID."

>> Michelle: "ALMA SAID, YOUR MIND IS LIKE A RIVER AND EACH TRAUMA POLLUTES THE RIVER.

WHEN YOU RETELL THE TRAUMA, YOU TAKE THE JUNK OUT SO THE WATER CAN FLOW AGAIN.

YOU TURN FULL COLOR MEMORIES TO BLACK AND WHITE.

SO IT'S LIKE A PICTURE YOU'RE SEEING INSTEAD OF A MOVIE YOU KEEP RELIVING."

>> Laura: GIVEN THE WORK THAT YOU DO AND THE THINGS THAT YOU THINK ABOUT AND WRITE ABOUT, HOW DO WE BEST PROCESS TRAUMA ON OUR BODIES?

>> Michelle: I THINK THE WRITING PROCESS ACTUALLY REALLY PARALLELS THE HEALING PROCESS WHERE INITIALLY WE JUST, BLAH, JUST LIKE SPIT OUT WHATEVER THAT PROCESS IS, LIKE AS MANY WORDS AS WE CAN, ESPECIALLY FOR WRITING.

I'M MOST FAMILIAR CREATIVE NONFICTION AND POETRY, BUT I THINK IF YOU'RE DOING ANY FORM OF WRITING, THAT IS ABOUT JUST GETTING THE STORY OUT.

AND I THINK EARLY IN THE THERAPEUTIC PROCESS, IT MIGHT BE, LIKE, EVERYTHING IS SO JUMBLED THAT IT'S JUST WORDS AND MAYBE THEY FEEL DISCONNECTED.

AND THEN THERE'S THE PROCESS OF GOING BACK AND MAKING MEANING OF THOSE THINGS.

SO IN THE WRITING PROCESS, I HAVE -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY DRAFTS OF THIS BOOK I WENT THROUGH.

YOU KNOW, IT TOOK ME 18 YEARS TO WRITE, SO MANY, MANY, MANY WORDS THAT ACTUALLY AREN'T IN THIS BOOK.

AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE OF LIKE A HEALING PROCESS, AS WELL, WHERE YOU GO BACK AND LAYER ON MEANING.

YOU SHAPE THINGS.

AND THEN EVENTUALLY YOU INCORPORATE THAT MEANING BACK INTO THE LARGER STORY OF YOUR LIFE.

SO I THINK THAT THERE ARE WAYS TO DO THAT THAT ARE WITH SOMEBODY LIKE ALMA, WHO'S THE THERAPIST IN THIS BOOK, AND WAS SO HELPFUL TO ME.

IT'S NOT HER REAL NAME.

SHE REALLY ACCOMPANIED ME ON A SPECIFIC PROCESS ABOUT, LIKE, GOING BACK INTO TRAUMA MEMORIES AND HOLDING THEM UP AND GIVING ME THE ABILITY TO BE IN BOTH, LIKE, HEMISPHERES OF MY BRAIN AT THE SAME TIME.

SO THAT INSTEAD OF EITHER JUST REPORTING THE FACTS AND BEING TOTALLY DETACHED FROM EMOTION, OR BEING SO MUCH IN MY EMOTION AND HAVING NO, LIKE, STRUCTURE, THROUGH OUR WORK TOGETHER I WAS ABLE TO KIND OF INTEGRATE THOSE MEMORIES IN A WAY THAT IS PART OF THE LARGER STORY OF MY LIFE, AND NOT THE STORY.

I THINK THAT'S ALSO TRUE OF WRITING.

SO BELL HOOKS TALKED ABOUT, MAY SHE REST IN PEACE, HOW FOR MANY COMMUNITIES, SOMETIMES THE ONLY ACCESS THAT THEY HAVE TO A THERAPEUTIC PROCESS IS THROUGH WRITING, SO I'M NOT A THERAPIST AND I'VE ALSO SEEN HOW HEALING THE WRITING PROCESS CAN BE FOR -- YOU KNOW, I'VE WORKED MOSTLY WITH WOMEN, BUT I'VE ALSO SEEN HOW IT'S BEEN THERAPEUTIC FOR LIKE YOUNG MEN AND FOR GROUPS OF OTHER GROUPS THAT I'VE WORKED WITH, WHERE JUST BEING ABLE TO GET A STORY DOWN AND THEN TO COMPLETE THE PROCESS OF HAVING THAT STORY WITNESSED AND HELD BY A COMMUNITY, WHETHER THAT COMMUNITY IS LIKE YOUR IMMEDIATE FAMILY OR YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS, OR LIKE THE LARGER CITY OR STATE WHERE YOU LIVE, THAT FOR ME REALLY COMPLETES THE WHOLE PROCESS.

>> Laura: ALONG THOSE LINES, ARE THERE LESSONS FOR US WHEN WE'RE TRYING TO HEAL THE TRAUMAS ON LANDSCAPES, AND WHAT PART MIGHT STORYTELLING PLAY THERE?

>> Michelle: I THINK FOR THE WRITING PROCESS AND FOR INDIVIDUAL HEALING, AND ALSO LANDSCAPE, IT COMES DOWN TO RELATIONSHIPS.

WHEN I WAS POET LAUREATE, MY PROJECT WAS ALL ALONG THE BOSQUE.

SO ONCE A MONTH I'D INVITE A POET TO PICK A SPOT IN THE BOSQUE THAT THEY LIKED AND A POET WHOSE WORK THEY WANTED TO CELEBRATE, AND IT WAS ALL ABOUT KIND OF TRICKING PEOPLE.

EITHER TRICKING PEOPLE WHO LOVED THE BOSQUE INTO LOVING POETRY, OR TRICKING PEOPLE WHO LOVED POETRY INTO, LIKE, LOVING THE BOSQUE.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE THINK OF LAND AS AN ABSTRACTION, WHERE IT'S JUST LIKE SOMETHING JUST TO BE COMMODIFIED OR SOMETHING OUT THERE THAT DOESN'T HAVE MUCH TO DO WITH ME, THEN THERE'S NO IMPERATIVE TO PROTECT IT.

BUT IF I'M IN RELATIONSHIP WITH LAND, MUCH LIKE I'M IN RELATIONSHIP WITH MY OWN STORY, OR IN RELATIONSHIP WITH PEOPLE I LOVE, THEN THE IMPERATIVE TO PROTECT IT BECOMES REAL.

MAYBE IT'S NOT EVEN SO MUCH PROTECTED.

THERE ARE THESE PLACES THAT NEED PROTECTION, BUT IT'S ALSO JUST ABOUT BEING IN RELATIONSHIP WITH IT.

I DON'T HAVE TO ALTER IT, I DON'T HAVE TO MANIPULATE IT, I SEE IT, AND IF IT'S IN NEED OF, LIKE, RESTORATION OR HEALING, LIKE IF A DAM NEEDS TO COME DOWN, IF A RIVER NEEDS TO, YOU KNOW, GO BACK TO ITS NATURAL FLOWS, IF SOMETHING LIKE SALT CEDAR NEEDS TO BE REMOVED, IT'S LIKE, HOW AM I SUPPORTING THIS THING THAT I LOVE, YEAH, THIS ENTITY, THIS PIECE OF LAND THAT I LOVE IN ITS FULLEST EXPRESSION.

>> Laura: WELL, THANK YOU, MICHELLE.

I HAVE LOVED YOUR POETRY OVER THE YEARS.

AND I REALLY, REALLY LOVE THIS MEMOIR.

SO THANK YOU.

>> Michelle: THANK YOU.